What classes do you think will be given a new lease of life in 2005?

Which new classes will emerge to be succesful?

Which classes will be 6ft under this time next year?

2005's big class will be the Fireball, having their Nationals/Euros, then Worlds in the UK in August. It's pretty much too late to buy a new one for the event now, apparently. Should be a good couple of weeks.

I know a whole host of classes which SHOULD be 6 foot under this time next year, but they probably won't be. That's another story though.

Sadly I think it'll be the newer high perfomance classes which fade.  So although I sail one I think it'll be gone in a few years whereas the 5o5 and say Osprey will still be sailed by a few diehards.  Take the RS800 as an example, its a fabulous boat and very popular for its type but when technology allows the owners will move on to something even faster and the class will decline.  Osprey owners clearly aren't interested in technology even though they are interested in performance.

The Fireball will be interesting, its not really fast by todays standards but the owners do continue to develop the boat and it is very popular.

Sadly I feel there is little hope for the FD and the Hornet - just not fast enough, but I can't claim to be in touch and no doubt this message will excite some of the owners.

In general terms Redback is probably right.

However new FRP Ospreys are being built this year (hoorah!) and carbon spars are being trialled; 505's seem to be creeping back up the ladder...a very fast boat; Fireballs are having their Worlds etc in the UK this year.  If you order a new Fireball now, you wont get it in time for the Worlds because the order books are full.  FD's are big all over Europe, and are very fast.  Hornets.... hmmm they seem to keep themselves to themselves but there are a surprising number around and racing.

All of these classes will be at the Symmetric Grand Prix at Rutland in October for loads of laughs and racing.  Many of them are doing combined events around the country before that. 5o5 Worlds are in Europe (Travemunde)  this year at the same time as the Javelin Europeans.

There is a lot of cross fertilisation between all these classes, so they kind of support each other.  Check out http://www.fastsail.org - www.fastsail.org

People sail them because they like the boats for what they are, (plus they are all pretty damn quick).

ith ink redbacks got it there, if a boats appeal is new technology, fast etc. then that'll bring it down in the end, when the new faster, better, cheaper boats come out.

THe prophet has spoken.

yeah, people will only buy the RS800 while it is the cutting edge, when newer and faster boats come out then it will be forgotten

Long live the cheap boats! (except the topper!)

I guess so long as the 470 remains an Olympic class then it must have a future of sorts, but in general club terms I really don't know.  It's not a bad boat as such and I do know that people seek out ones to buy on the second hand market.  Maybe the the last Olympics will give it a revival this year? I know the people who sail them seem to be pretty damn good, just not a lot of them, and the class doesn't get pushed alot outside of the Olympic squad type of activity.

I have to admit I nearly bought a 4000 last year (in addition to the Osprey), but was headed off at the pass by my dear wife, who doesn't understand boat greed at all.

At my club, alot of people are buying L2000's.  Mainly families who want to race. I think its only downfall is that although you can fit a trapeze, it's not "in class" for racing.  Seems a bit of a shame really.

I think as in every sport there is a kind of levelling going on at the moment. My guess is that we'll get more people coming into the sport but they'll just be spread across all the classes.  I think you have to think of dinghy ownership a bit like classic cars.  There'll always be someone there to keep a few afloat no matter what.  Not saying that's a good or bad thing, just my feeling.

Now which boats are going to endure?  Since the Laser2000 has been mentioned, I'd say this is a boat which has found a good niche.  It's a bit like the Enterprise.  Not too heavy and a little bit lively and because they are "off the peg" ideal for training and club ownership.  In fact our club has bought 2 to hire out for racing and for training, however I'm told they are a little too lively for training. I think they are a boat which will endure. 

We have also bought 2 Feva's for the same purpose but they are less successful.  We thought they'd be attractive to young teens and we thought they were a good boat encompassing many of the qualities of the Topax and Pico but a bit more racey.  The mylar sails however are fragile and do not tolerate the misuse they get from the inexperienced.  I believe woven sails are available, but the boats have been a dissapointment.

The Osprey has already endured and now they are contemplating a carbon rig.  As long as its not very expensive I think this is the way to go.  This is something a strict one design like a Laser4000 would find difficult to do (and ironically this would be a particularly effective mod to a 4000).

Anyone having an opinion on the RS700 in the future?

Well a Contender sailor just had to answer the last post regarding the RS700

If you look back at the start of the RS600 everyone thought it would kill off the Contender - but it didn't. And it now looks like the 600 will be the one that does not survive. This is because the RS700 has taken sailors from the 600s.

The RS700 also has competition from the Musto Skiffs. The difference here is that the Mustos are marketed differently and seem to have more of a European coverage. Only time will tell if both boats can "survive" and be successful.

Well but the beauty of those boats is you can just sell it on for the new tech. boat every couple of years.

Yeh i think i agree with the fireball being big, we're thinking of getting one after the worlds 2nd hand, there should be some good deals then, or an rs200.

Will the Contender survive?  Yes, probably even if its just as a trainer for the higher performance single handers.  I know that's hard to take for a Contender owner but I used to sail a Scorpion and at the time there was only one non-trapeze boat that was faster.  Look at the Scorpion now, a lovely boat but slow.  The same goes for the Contender a lovely boat but slow. 

However there is salvation for the Contender and also for many of the older designs.  The modern designs are faster in a blow but often not faster in the light stuff (just compare a 5o5 with a Laser 4000), so be prepared for the Contender to be called fast in the light stuff (hard to believe, I know).

I have sailed a Contender and its nice and steady and reputedly good on the sea.  What I didn't like was having to go so far aft during the tack and also touching your nose on the floor to avoid the boom as it came across.  Fabulous boat upwind in a 4.

A lot of sailors are just fickle in what they sail, going back many years the Fireball lost sailors to the ISO when it first came out, then those sailors went for the L4k and then the RS800 etc etc. Look at the number of "new" boats that have come and gone, iso, Laser 2, Boss, B14, L3k, L5k. Not to mention some of the single handers and no doubt some cats as well.

More boats doesn't equal better sailing, just fewer sailors at each event. And a class with few sailors will eventually disappear.

There are some truly horrible old boats still going, likewise there are some horrible new boats about. Of course there are good old and new boats too.

Older classes lost out to the professional Class assoc management that Laser, Topper etc started using, but they are making a come back in some cases, take Fastsail as an example.

Perhaps we need to get more people sailing rather than worrying too much about what they sail??

i'm not sure that the laser II can be described as a dead class.  Universities still race them along side fireflies and larks at busa events (both fleet racing and team racing).

Have a look at the busa fleet racing nationals to see how "dead" the class is.  Havig said that, the L2 doesn't seem to have much of a following outside of the uni's anymore.

http://wpnsa.org.uk/results/BUSALaser2.htm - http://wpnsa.org.uk/results/BUSALaser2.htm

Offshoretiger - you work offshore in the north sea?

lozza, yeah I get to go an play with the oilrigs, mostly north sea but some other places as well

We had Laser2s when I was at uni and I quite liked them. Not bad boats and not to easy to break.

They're good boats - if you're helming.  If the control systems were updated (like the laser) they could be really good. Always had trouble with the kite being dropped:

A)  The kite usually ends up round the d.board due to it being too big for the chute.

B)  The cleat for the halyard is really nastily positioned and sized

Offshoretiger - i work in the Southern north sea (blocks 49/23 and 49/27) as a student process engineer

49/27 and 23, is that not Inde and Leman?

I try and stay out of SNS, they get even more fog than Northern sector. Missed 2 events last summer cos I was fogged in offshore.

yep its inde and leman.  Not much chance for fog at the moment cos of the 60 knot winds.  Only here for a year for uni placement.

How i'd like to get my 505 offshore and go wave riding!!!

Where abouts you based?

P.S. - do you reckon anyone could get a topper to plane if it was this windy?!!!

Im based in Aberdeen, work for a contractor so we get sent all over.

Did a job on Inde & Leman about 3 years ago, lots of day tripping and the job took forever cos of the fog

Had some good big wave pics somewere, any wave that make the supply boat look small cant be good!

When your sailing them do B14's fell VERY fast? 

They look ...........Wow

Yeah i've got a topper to plane alot of times! Its amazing! but u need about 25knots

I've not been keeping up with this thread, the B14 class is most definately not dead!  A lot of boats are changing hands at the moment bringing a lot of new people into the class.  The new carbon mast should be class legal by the time this year's season kicks off properly, and if you need another reason to join the B14 fleet the next worlds are in Jan 2006 on Sydney harbour, the spiritual home of skiffs!! 

As for  what they feel like at speed, they are amazing, you are closer to the water with the wings.  And also because you hike rather than trapeeze boat speed is entirely dependent on how hard you work.  The more you put in, the more you get out, its a really rewarding way to sail, keeps you fit too! 

Sailor Girl, did you do the nationals, trying to think if I saw you there.   

By come and gone I was refering to boats that were either no longer being built by the original manufacturer or had apparently stopped production altogether.

Actually the B14 is a good case to back up my point about sailors being fickle,  aren't most of them ex - lark sailors??

Er, isn't everyone an ex-lark sailor? That is, anyone who sailed at university would have been a lark sailor. Mind you, I seem to remember spending most of the time bailing the d*mn things out and not actually sailing.

Laser II - designed in about 1980, still going strong after 25 years - that is hardly "come & gone".

B14 never really came in the first place did it?

So you aren't allowed to change classes now?

erm, sorry, I assumed that as it's no longer listed in Lasers catalogue and you don't seem to be able to get little spares like foils and masts that it was an ex dinghy, pushing up the daisies, deceased etc (and it's no even green:-)

And changing class is ok, but the point is that it's a fad thing, new boat comes in, group of sailors move into it, next new thing arrives and they shift to that - this results in lots of abandoned classes which isn't good for the sport, other than to ensure a supply of cheap secondhand boats which can be difficult to get spares for and have no real support structure.

And my point was 25 years isn't exactly "come & gone"...

On the subject of new classes damaging sailing, Every single class was new once for heavens sake!

If new boats didn't come along:

only I14s, Cherubs and Int. Canoes would have assymetric kites,

only I14s and Cherubs would have twin wires

the Contender would be the only trapeze single hander

Catamarans would not exist

How can sailing develop if new classes don't come along and mass market the good stuff from the development classes?  Not everybody wants to sail a Cherub or I14, N12, Merlin or Moth, but loads of people like assymetric kites, single & twin wiring, efficient hiking boats etc.

HOWEVER - a class ceasing to exist because the manufacturer is ready to move on and make some money off the fashion thing is not brilliant.  The only solution I can see is if manufacturer's were to agree that once they had had enough of supporting a class, they would donate the moulds to the Class Association along with the necessary rights, then classes could continue to exist for as long as people were enthusiastic enough to sail them...

Rant over, soapbox put away.

Having recently changed to a Laser 2 I could be biased of course, but the Laser centre still lists and sells all spares, so they're not difficult at all to obtain new ( although I concede masts may be a different story )

With 22 boats at last years nationals the attendance may be down on many other classes but it's still quite good. Taking my club in isolation there are 3 of them, while there are no merlins or fireballs, for example, which makes it a better supported class in this instance. And the potential is there for the three boats to interact with each other and attract new interest.

it's interesting to see the difference in the sailing scene in the uk from Canda.over here it is basicly the kids start in the opti then either move to a radial or move to a 420 then they either advance to a full rig or stick with the 420. as the teens get older then they start to generally move into 29ers. thats about all that is around here though at most major regattas it is 420s 29ers full rig and radial lasers and a few opti classes. other than that there isn't really too much of a fleet of anything else . at least in western canada. as for keelboats it's a different story. there is a million different fleets around here.

I work at as an instructor at an inland sailing club and in the three / four years i've worked there its been amazin at class changes.

The phantom has really taken off in last few years, and i dont think that'll die any time soon, they cant make enough of them!

how about the topaz, what a flop. my club bought three tres' and now i'm stuck trying to teach performance sailing in 'em.

Also how about the Hobie 405? wasn't that a 'RYA official training class'? that took less than one season to die!!

As for class changing - i do it twice a season, it gives you a excuse for poor results!!

yer i no what you mean. so many class are popular for a couple of years then people just leave the class and it eventely dies out!!

the only class i think that will keep growing over the years is the laser!

I think yur right Harry but i do think that Topper are going to continu to grow because at the moment more people seem to be training for sailing and quite a few teach younger kids in Topper's and then thses kids may get more advanced in Toppers making them more popular..........

Especially as Topper is the only single hander that younger kid's can take out in Very Stronmg winds..................it also feel's fast in a blow

Its funny how much its been tried, but no-one can seem to get it right.

Even the manufactures of two big single handed classes, with big racing and training fleets, topper and laser couldnt seem to do it.  Both the pico and the topaz had big hype, but flopped dramatically when people actually sailed the boat.

What do you think makes such a good boat for fun, racing and training like the topper? and what specs / features would meet those criteria in a two man youth boat?

well the topper is relletivly cheep and the mailsail is very easy to control!

i think it shoudnt be plastic cos all the plastic boats are rubish!!

dont know about the sail though?

what are the plastic skiffs called cus i havent heard of any plastic skiffs. ur probably all going to show me how little i kno about dinghies.

Ok sorry peeps i just made a complete knob of myself i thought you meant that you thought all grp boats and stuff are all crap aswell...............sorry

Also like Harry said Topper's might be easy to make move but the racing is very tactical and good challenge and they have the added bonus of you being able to take them out when other boats really struggle !...........although that might be  down to the sailor 

Found this on the boats.com review

Unusually, the Vortex is not produced in Laser's own factory in Banbury but at Rob White's premises in Brightlingsea. Construction appears to be of high quality and utilises glass, foam and vinyl ester resins. What few fittings there are all appear to be man enough for the job and everything functions effectively.

Don't worry mate - you are technically correct all Laser/RS boats are plastic!

5 years ago, before the advent of ROTA-moulded boats, any dinghy not made of wood was called plastic but now people seem to talk about plastic boats meaning exclusively rota-moulded.

Yeah,

Thanks Matt....................That's what i thought everyone was talking about i didn't think they just meant roto moulded thing's !

nah anything other than roto moulded doesnt count as plastic in my books

If you try hard you can make a topper shine...................I am in the process of sanding the foils on my Topper to get ri of the scratches which someone said i should do !

I guess i don't want extra drag !

Yeah i guess it would slow yo down a fair bit would'nt it !

By the way is cavatation the air gaps the rudder makes?

wave rider, re: cavitation.

I presume the air gaps on a rudder which you are refering two are when the waters surface drops down one side of the blade as you turn quickly.  This is not cavitation, what is happening (in simple terms) is that as you turn sharply the water cannot get to that side of the rudder fast enough to keep the surface at the same level, and so the surface drops down the foils length.  This is not good, partly because the rudder looses effectiveness as a result of the lost area in the water, it also puts higher loads on the blade and finally it creates a lot of drag which is not good for boat speed in a race. 

Cavitation is completely different an in actual fact has nothing to do with air.  Its a bit complicated so i will try and keep it as simple as i can. 

Cavitation is caused as a result of a sharp pressure drop in water flowing over a surface such as a hydrofoil or propeller.  As water flows past a foil the flow on one side speeds up, this increase in flow rate over the surface causes a drop in pressure on that side of the foil.  Now, as the pressure of a fluid (like water) decreases so too does the temperature at which it boils. 

Cavitation is a special case where the drop in pressure is so much that the water is able to boil at its current temperature, and does so instantly at the point of the pressure drop.  This creates the bubbles you see on the foil's surface.  The bubbles contain, in effect, steam.  The reson these bubbles dissapear is that the pressure drop is not as big over the whole foil and so the pressure of the liquid water around the bubble forces it to colapse and the steam condences back into the water around it. 

Below is a pic of a propeller cavitating.  the big bubble on the blade is created exactly how i described above, the bubbles on the shaft are created in the same way except that the presure drop is caused by the water flowing over the lip in the shaft from where the propeller is connected. 

The final bubbles are forming an arc coming off the tip of the blade.  These are again caviattion, but here the pressure drop cauing then is caused by a vortex creted by the blade.  In the middle of the vortex the water is also moving very fast and again the pressure drops here so much that the water cavitates.  The vortex is created because the water on the back of the blade has a higher pressure that the water infront of it.  The water 'wants' to try and even out the pressure and some of it tries to flow (leak) around the tip of the blade in order to do this.  Because of the water flow past the blade this casuses the 'leaking' water to form a vortex. 

I hope this is not to confusing.  if it is let me know and i'll try and clear things up.  If you are interested this is an interesting article on how people are trying to use cavitation to their advantage...  http://www.subsim.com/ssr/page33.html - http://www.subsim.com/ssr/page33.html  

Ok thanks that makes it really clear !

That was a brilliant explanation !

(This is really not doing my degree much good, but then again these posts are probably the most use I am going to get out of it! )

Lamina Flow...

Lamina flow in the real world is rare, but in principle does occure everywhere that a fluid passes over a surface.  From a dinghy sailing point of view there is little that can be done other than keeping your hull smoothe & fair. 

Lamina flow begins with a uniform flow, that is a stream of fluid flowing with every molecule moving in a straight line (or an object moving through completely still water).  In reality this is impossible if nothing else due to the rotation in water linked with waves.  However the principle is very powerfull when it comes to the mathematics involved in calculating fluid flows. 

As water flows past a surface (eg hull, rudder) friction with that surface slows the flow, to the point where the water directly in contact with the surface does not move in relation to it.  The speed of the water (in relation to the surface) increses as you move away from the surface back up to the speed of the free stream (ie: before contact with the surface).  Because the speed of the water at any given distance from the surface, is different to the speed of the water next to it, both closer to, and further from the surface, there is a shear force produced between these 'layers'.  This shear force disrupts the liniarity of the flow and causes the water near to the surface to become turbulent. 

As the flow contiues over the surface, the fluid flow close to the surface actually smoothes out and forms a very thin layer of laminar flow.  This is where having a smoothe hull is important.  If the imperfections in the hull surface do not stick out above this new layer of flow (called the 'laminar sub-boundry layer'), then the surface can be considered as hydrodynamicly smoothe.  Both mathematicly and in the real world this has great benefits in terms of efficiency through the water. 

The transitions between these types of flow are dictated by a quantity called 'Reynolds' number' (Rn).  It is a function of the density of the fluid, its velocity.  As you move along the hull from bow to stern the value of 'Rn' increases and when a certain value is reached (dependent, in part, on the roughness of the surface) flow changes from being laminar to turbulent. 

Lamina flow is better in terms of drag, but the tranistions between types of flow on the surface create more drag.  So in reality getting the lamina sub-boundry layer established early on is the best option.  At a boat speed of around 5 knots lamina flow will only continue over the first two feet of the hull and that is assuming that the water is completely still.  In the real world the best you will probably get is about six inches of lamina flow on the bow of a hull.  This means having a hull which is smoote enough to be hydrodynamicly smoothe is the important thing to worry about.  If you are on the plane the mechanics change completely and lamina flow does not really enter the 'equation'. 

I think most of this is right, (I'm doing it from memory because a friend is borrowing the best two books I have on the subject).  I will read up and may update this tomorrow, for now I think this covers most things.  If you have any questions do ask, I'll see what I can drag up. 

Enjoy. 

Don't forget laminar flow sections for dagger boards - specifically designed sections that operate with a laminar boundary layer over the entire blade to reduce drag...

'Laminar sections'

I would be a little reluctant of these.  In order to produce a section that will do that, firstly it would have a fairly short chord (I found my book and at 4 knots in still water the lamina layer will last at most 50cm along a surface, and that is in still water, with a very smoothe surface).  Given that the water, especially near the surface where most of a foil is operating, is never still the chances of having any truely laminar flow is unlikely at best.  The other thing is that in order to maintain the laminar layer the section has to change in thickness very slowly along its chord so as not to get seperation.  The upshot of this is a section that is very thin for a large amount of it's chord (towards trailing edge).  This makes for an inherently less stiff foil (not good for performance in waves) and also more likely for you to put a foot through it when you capsize. 

I would like to be proved wrong about this but from what little I know on the subject my personal view is that they are a bit of a waste of time. 

From what I have read you are quite right.  Its much better to use a foil designed for the turbulent flow within which they will operate and as a bonus they are sections which are stronger and so can be used to right the boat after a capsize.  Another factor is that a very thin section is poor at recovery from a stall, as too are sections with a short cord, the ability ot recover from a stall is very important at low speeds or situations with high lateral forces.

I have encountered stalling in 2 very different types of boat. 1. the Laser where it is possible to stall the foil by using a vigorous roll tack and not let the main out enough, and 2. the RS800 where in lightish winds if you oversheet the main the foil gives up and the boat slows very noticeably - it feels like you've just hit a muddy bottom.

Dunno i think they should make a younger person's style boat e.r single hander with trapeze and fast but easier to sail than something like the 700?

Maybe they could call it the 500 seeing as they have all the others and 100 would mean it was the lowest performace they made !

Maybe there isnt much call for that kind of boat in the market but it would be good !

This is not necessarily anything to do with laminar flow vs. turbulent flow sections though - the laser dagger board is NOT a laminar flow section.  What you describe for the laser is a case of the foil operating at too high an angle of attack so it stalls.

The Tasar and Laser 2 both have laminar flow sections and personally speaking I haven't found them too thin to stand on...