Weather Helm/Tacking
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Multihulls
Forum Name: Dinghy multihulls
Forum Discription: For those who prefer two (or more) hulls to one!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3496
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 5:50pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Weather Helm/Tacking
Posted By: merlinghnd
Subject: Weather Helm/Tacking
Date Posted: 17 Oct 07 at 10:30pm
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Hello Everyone,
I am a brand new cat sailor owning a second hand Hobie Pacific which is just fantastic but.. When sailing I have no weather helm at all, the rudders very neutral at all points of sail. If I fell off, it would just sail serenely on ( probably sails itself better than me!). I have heard you need to increase mast rake to increase weather helm but my shrouds are down to the last hole so there is no more to give. I am a big guy at 16stone so there is a lot of weight aft. I am also finding it impossible to tack and only do so when the jib is fully backed by hand right out at 90 degrees and then often backing the rudders. My question is, if I increased weather helm would it tack better and how do I increase weather helm with the shrouds right down?? Thanks for any answers, cats are the just great, should have done this years ago. |
Replies:
Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 18 Oct 07 at 8:14am
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In order to help you on this matter could you please go into some detail of how you tack, I know it may seem embarrasing to do this, but it really would help.... it may well be something basic that we can talk you through. Personally I wouldn't any weather helm. |
Posted By: Worthy
Date Posted: 18 Oct 07 at 8:47am
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You want no weather helm at all!!! Agree with Stuart, need more detail about tacking. |
Posted By: merlinghnd
Date Posted: 18 Oct 07 at 9:25am
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Thanks for taking the time.
I am new to this cat sailing and bought the boat second hand and therefore set up. The boat came with a self tacker but I am not using this at the moment as I have had to take the spinnaker pole off for a repair. The jib sheet leads are now fixed on the cross bar about half way between the "full out" and "full in" positions. I have tried every way to tack, hard over and fast (stalls), on a reach and gradually coming into the wind with the rudders about 45 degrees and sheeting in as I go and then releasing some main sheet tension but again stalls. I have tried to stay on the leeward hull side as long as possible. Every time holding onto the jib tight and not letting go. In fact the only way I have ever tacked is by physically backing the jib by holding it right out with the person doing this sat right forward on the wing arm straight out. I have spoken to a few people at the club I sail from (A cat club) and taken advice. However last night I did wonder if the weather helm issue or lack of it might have something to do with it. I have found car forums very helpful in the past so thought I might pick some brains here. I am told there is a knack to it, I just cannot find it. Next step might be to take someone from the club out a see what they think. Any thoughts? |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 18 Oct 07 at 9:26am
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Agree with Worthy and Stuart, more info would help, but one usual mistake people make with skegged boats is that you do need to be fairly positive with the rudders; as there are no plates there is no cental pivot point and so a bit more push on the tiller bar is required.
I've not sailed a Pacific and so cannot comment on specifics, but generally the way to tack skegged boats (my skegged boats were Dart 18's and 15's) is to get the weight back to get the bows out.
You also need to let some mainsheet out as you get near to head to wind otherwise you stall (thus needing a hard back of the jib). You may well always need some jib-back to help you round, but the key is being more positive on the rudders. Don't just stuff them hard over, they will just act like brakes, but push them over gently, but firmly.
EDIT: merlinghnd our posts crossed; sheeting in as you head up may not actually help (odd as it sounds).
------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 18 Oct 07 at 9:52am
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As has just been said be positive in the tiller and keep it at a constant angle throughout the tack. As the boat approaches head to wind ease the mainsheet. As you are doing keep on the windward side as long as possible even once the boat has gone through head to wind and certainly keep your weight back. This actually will help the boat tack. Certainly a good idea to sail with an 'experienced' cat sailor at your club as they can often point out small differences of sailing a cat over a monohull. Unfortunately it is a case of pratise but very pleased to read your enjoying it |
Posted By: Worthy
Date Posted: 18 Oct 07 at 10:18am
| I am at home this afternoon and will give a more thought out answer then, but one thing to note is that you should tack from a close hauled course to a close hauled course (not from a reach) and you must be going at top speed before the tack. |
Posted By: ASok
Date Posted: 18 Oct 07 at 10:51am
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I would agree with Worthy. You need to be close hauled, maximum speed and loos for a flat patch is sailing in waves. Be positive with the rudders and don't straighten up too quickly. Backing the jib slightly will asisst turning through the tack, especially in light airs when you need that extra push. I've found on the Dart that you can't cross the boat too quickly. This was difficult when I first had the boat, as I used to get in a right muddle crossing the tiller around the back, but you soon realise that it helps to stay on the windward side for as long as possible. As for windward helm, I would rather avoid it. Keeping two rudders straight at all times will help reduce drag. Plus in heavy weather one can be bad enough to tug at let alone two. With respect to mast rake, can you adjust the forestay length?
------------- |
Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 18 Oct 07 at 11:08am
| Merlinghnd where do you sail as we maybe able to put you in touch with other act sailors who will be willing to help? |
Posted By: Worthy
Date Posted: 18 Oct 07 at 6:09pm
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I used to sail a Hobie 16 which are renouned as being one of the hardest boats to tack mainly due to no boards or skegs, so I will go through a tack in a Hobie 16 and you should be fine doing that in a Pacific. One thing to note is that the windier it gets the harder it is to tack, and the more important it is that you are up to speed. OK to start, as we have already said, start from full speed on a close hauled course. This is essential, no wimping out. If there is enough wind you need to be twin wiring etc. From this position you de-power the boat by pushing the tiller away. As you push away the hull will come down and the helm and crew need to quickly move off the wire onto the tramp. As said above the rudder movement needs to be quite firm but not too quick so as you can't get off the wire. The main and jib should still be in at this point. When the helm gets to the middle the crew should be on the new side already and the boat should be head to wind and the rudders still steering the boat through the tack. The main sheet should be eased a meter or so at this point and the jib remain cleeted. When the boat comes round to the correct angle on the new side you then release the jib, after which you straighten up the rudders and pull the main in slowly (it should take 3 or 4 seconds to get the main back in to fully tight). If it is not windy enough to wire the same ideas still hold, you can just be slightly more forceful with the rudders as there is no risk in you falling off the side! As I said, that is what I did to tack the Hobie 16 and it has worked on every boat I have sailed since. Hope this helps |
Posted By: Worthy
Date Posted: 18 Oct 07 at 6:18pm
Just a quick note on weather helm. No weather helm is not an issue, infact it is great news!!  Whenever I sail a new boat I spend a lot of time and effort making sure that there is no weather helm, it makes life soooo much easier |
Posted By: Shadowman
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 8:13am
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One thing that we all had a tendency to do when learning to sail cats is to let the rudders centre as you change hands on the tiller and even as you cross the boat. Very easy to do but it is essential you keep the rudders over until you are well through the wind. You are right that your boat may sail off without you if well balanced! Remeber to hold onto the sheet if you fall off! |
Posted By: merlinghnd
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 9:01pm
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Thanks to everyone who replied, especially the comprehensive reply from Worthy. Bit busy this weekend, but if weather OK will try another go next week and let you all know how I got on.
Once again thanks |
Posted By: merlinghnd
Date Posted: 24 Oct 07 at 7:36pm
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Hello Everyone,
Went sailing today and tacked wothout any problems. The first time we did it I was just plain surprised. Printed off Worthys instructions and worked a treat. Wind was about F4. I think the "trick" is firstly not to rush over to the other side and as Shadowman mentioned, be sure you don't accidentally centre the rudders when moving across or throwing the tiller to the other side. Thanks for all your help, thats tacking sorted, just the rest to go now!!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 24 Oct 07 at 8:13pm
| glad to hear it all helped....just keep practising |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 28 Oct 07 at 11:10pm
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Good to hear you've craked it and the point about keeping the rudders over whilst swapping sides is key but I bet you are also letting the main out more too - I've found that very important in a Hobbie 16. So I would say make sure you've got good speed and are close hauled push the helm away with steady pressure but not so strongly as to act as a break keep the pressure on the rudders as you cross let the main off a lot but keep the jib cleated wait untill the boat is well beyond "head-to-wind" and release the jib get the jib sheeted on the new tack but keep bearing away untill speed begins to build then sheet in the main head up to the close hauled course There's no hurry these boats take their time. |