Genuine question - I'm not RYA bashing

Do we have a moral obligation to be personal members?  If so, why?   I am a member of a club which is affiliated, but not a personal member anymore. I can't quite see what the point is - how would I benefit?   Okay, I can't get a job as a sailing instructor anymore. Anything else?  If it is just a way for the RYA to make more money, why don't they just charge the clubs more and do away with personal membership?

Not everyone who sails belongs to a club. Not even everyone who races. I've spent significant chunks of my racing career belonging to the RYA but not to a club.

I suppose that is the answer.  I can see that not everyone who sails would belong to a club, but I'm suprised there are any racers who don't.  Either way, there doesn't seem much need to belong to a club and the RYA.  As TT shows, the benefits aren't exactly compelling.

We (RYA staff members) don't normally enter into debate on forums (but we do monitor them) due to the amount of time they could soak up.  But seeing as you asked a straight question...

There are two fundamental reasons to join the RYA.

Firstly the promotion of leisure boating in all it's forms, through delivery of advice to newcomers, the creation and administration of world class training schemes, and other key projects that help in getting people out on the water.

Secondly theres the protection of the rights and freedoms that we all enjoy.  The UK has one of the least regulated leisure marine sectors in the "developed" world (I hate that phrase), along with one of the best safety records.  We live in a world where every day somebody is trying to legislate against this and regulate that, mostly without an in depth knowledge of the subject matter or culture that they're dealing with.  Sometimes these people need opposing point blank.  Often it's a case of finding a workable solution, one that achieve the objective without significant impact on sailing and boating.  One thing is for sure, regulation and bits of paper don't necessarily make for a safer world, but they do cost a lot of money.  Money that always ends up being passed to the user.

The RYA relies on the support of personal members to pursue these interests.  We're biased of course but we'd argue that the cost of the legislation that would be implemented in our absense would be many times the cost of a personal membership.  A much more detailled description of the RYA's role and activities is given on the website, http://www.rya.org.uk/AboutRYA/ - CLICK HERE to go directly to the relevant section (use the left hand navigation).

Because we have a very large membership base, we're also able to negotiate some good deals for the benefit of our personal members, and these are listed http://www.rya.org.uk/Membership/benefits/ - here .

I'd also like to clear up this misconception about the fees that clubs pay, which has been expressed before on these forums.  In terms of our subscription income, Personal Memberships contribute 87% of this, as opposed to Clubs/Orgs subs which are just 13%.  Clubs are basically being charged for the services that they as an organisation receive, not for the work that the RYA does on behalf of their members.

We could move to a purely club member based system, but the clubs would resent being seen as RYA tax collectors.  It would also be unfair to the significant sector of boating people who don't belong to a club. A "club member" scheme was in fact trialled in the 60's and it was a disaster.  We still reckon to feel the negative effects from that now, in terms of this misconception. 

In summary, do you have a moral obligation to join?  I wouldn't go that far, but if you look at the big picture, I hope people will see that they get good value for money from their national organisation, and support it for the right reasons.

Please do go to the RYA website and take a bit of time to find out more about what is going on.  If anybody would like copies of leaflets produced to explain some of the current issues, please e-mail your name and address to mailto:marketing@rya.org.uk - marketing at rya.org.uk

Thanks for the reply.  I hadn't realised that personal membership was such a large part of your income.  I feel a bit guilty now...

Still, there seems to be a flaw in the system whereby I have no obligation or direct incentive (beyond feeling that I have done the right thing) to join the association that runs my sport.  I'm not sure what the answer is though.

Quite a lot of racers don't belong to a club. One group is those who only ever do opens. A second is those keelboat sailors who operate out of marinas etc. rather than clubs. 

Winging it - many of the reasons you give are good reasons for the RYA existing, but not necessarily good reasons for being a personal member. 

Taking each point in turn:

1. True, but I would have though that could/should be a club funded activity.

2. Only for the very few 'national' classes though, I think.  So not for RSs, Toppers, Lasers etc. Why should I pay for someone to measure someone elses Merlin Rocket?

3. As 1.

4. The RYA have been extremely successful at getting Olympic medals.  But is this a) my responsibility to fund and b) best use of funds?  Just asking, I don't know and is probably the subject of another thread.

5. Certainly could/should be funded by the clubs (and Pete Vincent wrote a very good article in the other sailing mag suggesting the system needs a long overdue overhaul).

Even if I accept all your reasons, as you say, I still get the benfit without paying - which is hardly fair.  Personally, I think it makes more sense to get more income through the clubs, which we have to be a member of to race.  That way, more people will be contributing more and less reliance is placed on those who are benevolent enough to become personal members.  But that has been tried, and failed, so I don't know what the solution is.  May be society has changed since the 60's and we'd be more willing now?

Intersting stuff.

I don't think that you need to be an RYA member to be an instructor, I've not been a member for several years as it cost nearly a third of my weekly wage once I turned 21.

IMHO the beginners training in this country is of a high standard because of the instructors inspite of the RYAs controle

First thing - anybody who wants a Merlin Rocket measured will be paying for the privelege themselves. Second thing - RYA holds copyright on the rules for a large number of classes including some SMODs. I've some experience of working with the RYA technical department on refining class rules and they have a knowledge based on working with a range of classes that was extremely useful, which is precisely the reason that many class associations choose to involve them.

That said, my recollection is that as a class association we paid the RYA a retainer for managing our class rules, so I don't see this as a reason to be a personal member. 

No we don't. Have you been listening? 

Sorry Stefan.  Had a tough day?  Being a pedant, you should have asked "Have you been reading", because, no, I can't actually hear you.  However, the vast majority of people do need to belong to a club to get some racing, because they race at their local club at some stage.  But I shouldn't make sweeping statements.  I also stand corrected on the measurement front, but don't understand why the RYA would hold copyright to SMOD measurements.  Anyhow, I don't really care. 

My point is that there are many people (like me) who are able to benefit through the generosity of people like you.  That doesn't seem right.  If you aren't a member of a club then you should probably be a member of the RYA, but to me it makes sense that I should pay my RYA fee through my club (albeit, I take the point about clubs not wanting to be tax collectors).

I agree with all that.  I didn't realise the RYA so so reliant on personal membership for its revenue.  I will rejoin.  The fact remains though, that there must be lots of 'freeloaders', even if that is pathetic.  I just thought the best way to get them to contribute would be through club fees, but of course the RYA's remit goes far beyond dinghy racing, which is something I tend to forget.

I agree that you need to be up to date but part of this is not being an RYA member, it has nothing to do with personal insurance, unless you pay extra for it. I know that the RYA work to make this extra cost as low as posisble but I stopped using it as it was too expensive for a humble SI. Your centre must be insured to be RYA recognised through this you are qualified.

Just to make my point clear I am not an RYA member because it at the moment most of my spare money goes on other things.

I dislike the current training scheme, as do many other full time instructors.

Overall I feel that the RYA manage to represent our sport reasonably well, sometimes when a bad desion has been made they tend to be rather ridged in there views.  

My understanding is that if you're not a member you're not registered as qualified - maybe not a big issue unless you have to account for your actions in a coroner's court.  Also if you're not a member how do you requalify every 5 years? 

I would also add that if you don't like the current training system you should be working with the RYA to improve it for everyone. 

Last time I requalified the fee was the same as membership so I paid it.

I don't have a problem in handing out certificates if some thing has been achieved then its a nice thing to give in recognition of that. I feel that there is no longer any high level within the current scheme.

Even for instructors the standard seems to have changed in the last 10 years, with the emphasis on insturcting skill at the expence of sailing skills. Personaly this is no bad thing, when I became an instructor I could sail well but couldn't instruct at all, I just think that it has gone too far. I know SIs who can't trapez or use simetrical spinnakers.

RYA in other debates are adamant that the funding for the Olypic squads comes from lottery funding and NOT the RYA budget

Absolutely no requirement to trapeze of fly a kite to instruct - that's what advanced instructors are for!  Also worth noting that SI is about management and organisation rather than some higher level or pinicle of sailing.

Remember that basic instructors only teach level 1, 2 and seamanship. 

I qualified as an instructor in 1988 and while the instructor course seems to have changed the pre entry requirement is still the same.  Teaching sailing well is actually not so much about being a brillant sailor but more about empathy, being able to explain things simply, good briefs and debriefs and most important cope calmly and safely with whatever pickle your students get into.

I really agree, being an instructor is about being kind and caring. Introducing people to sailing in a way they will continue to sail and to show why you love the sport.

Being a coach is different. You need to be a top sailor in your own right and be aware of the technical skills involved. You do not necessary have to be as good as the sailor you coach (after all otherwise Ben Ainslie would never have a coach) but you do need excellent analytical and communication skills to help provide information from outside the boat to the sailor you are working with.

Interestingly the RYA do not use coaches from inside a class, which I believe is a huge error!

But without the RYA individuals would be attempting to get lottery funding on a piecemeal basis, something that I suspect would have a high failure rate and so harm GB's representatives at the Olympics.

Not sure about that. A few years ago when I had a 707, the class used Cathy Foster to run a coaching session. While she didn't know much about the class, she was very successful in bringing out the class-specific "how-tos" from the class hot-shots present in the session. She clearly had a framework and approach towards doing so, and it worked very well. This assumes that the front-end of the class are prepared to participate in such a session, which may not always be true.

The classes I am involved with do not like to use RYA Squad sailors as I think the RYA thinks "They should be sailing". Hence why the UKLA training which I run in Lasers uses people like Ben Paton (World Champion), Mark Powell (National Champion)... The RYA Laser training does not.

I am not saying which every coach needs to have a specialst knowledge (I work will all sorts of classes) just it is good to use specialised coachs! (as opposed to not using them).

Also regards the Instructor/Coach thought I think the best example of this is:

My (unfortunately ex) girlfriend was a perfect instructor. Pretty, blond, small and in her early twenties. All the kids wanted to go in her boat and hold hands with her afterwards. They really looked forward to going on the water. I could never imagine the children reacting like that to me. In terms of sailing she put up her first spinnaker this summer!

Me, I can only work with people with drive and determination. It may only be to win their club race or it maybe to secure an Olympic spot but they need to be dedicated, otherwise I just feel I am wasting my time. I am happy to jump in pretty much any boat and race against the people I coach knowing I will not embarass myself...

An SI (who is not a coach) I believe falls into the instructor catagory but just with a higher level of experience.