This issue has been raised in another Topic,

Reckon its worthy of seperate discussion.

I personally think they should dump indoor bowling , water dancing (mens) ,tiddly winks , curling etc

and fill with as many sailing events as poss , including a speed event over 500m

and bring back the old Athenian competition clothing - ie non ,

Edit ( mark could you shift this topic to its relevant catagory , I miss placed it here - i think )

10 disciplins and still very dinghy bias for those old school sailors.

1 person Dinghy - Men

1 person Dinghy - Women

2 person Dinghy - Men

2 person Dinghy - Women

Sail Board - Men

Sail Board - Women

Keel Boat - Men

Keel Boat - Women

Multihull - Men

Multihull - Women

Perhaps when further cuts are needed they should only look at -

Mens dinghy

Womens dinghy

Mens sail board

Womens sail board

Mens keel boat

Womens keel boat

Mens Multihull

Womens Multihull

I'll second Tornado_ALIVE's suggestion and add that I would like to see a mixed sex crew in the mix somewhere.

Harking back to the RYA's explanation of its decision, it says that catamaran chamions are generally thirty or older. Dead right and it has that in common with the majority of dinghy sailors (I have no idea but I can't imagine the current GP14 champ is under thirty). Youngsters are more attracted to the sex-appeal of assymetric skiff sailing (hence the popularity of 29er and Feva) as a route to the 49er. I know that if I took myself back to age ten and was given the choice between the Cadet that I then sailed and a Feva it would be a no brainer. I'm not sure why kids would sail a 420 in preference to 29er if it wasn't for the 470's Olympic status. That doesn't make the 470 or 420  bad boats but I'm asserting that their current popularity is mainly due to their "sponsorship" by the RYA. If the 470 lost its Olympic status the 420 would die overnight IMO.

I don't mean to sound like any particular political party but proportional representation is not the issue here otherwise 'sports' such as synchronised swimming and rhythmic gymnastics would not be included in the olympics either-not a bad shout though. So if it's not about proprtional representation it's about having a broad and balanced curriculum of activities- even within the sailing disciplines therefore multihulls and boards deserve representation - at present there are a plethera-well almost-of single hull dinghies represented. Would for example the finn even exist if it was not an olympic class I think not it was previously the last bastion of the fatties but no longer as taller skinny types have discovered they can do it too.

I'd dump the finn as it is somewhat elitist(price) and pretty poor in performance anyway but keep the laser which is also pretty poor but at least affordable and fun and therefore relevant to  the average sailor who races an 'olympic' boat at the weekend.

Apologies to my buddies who sail finns

still all is not lost go buy a cat!

OK - I have been doing a bit of digging on rough numbers ...

Seems at the UKWA British Open ther were 63 competitors in 4 classes.

If we look at the top 4 classes of cats at UK nationals we have 321 competitors.

In addition many of these cat sailors will have raced on a regular basis at club level.

Seems to me multihull sailing as far more active than course racing windsurfers.

My own suspicion is that the lobbying, done during the later stages of class selection at the ISAF, by the respective classes and manufacturer is far more likely to influence the outcome rather than numbers or even trials.

Looking at the recent womens skiff trials the 29'er xx will get the slot, even if it's not the 'best' boat as our cherub sailing friends would have us believe, and on this occasion I tend to agree with them. However despite their best efforts they won't be able to muster the neccessary influence which will surround the 29'er XX

Won't happen. It has influential friends. As does the Star.

Star has been dropped once before!

Accepting that I and many beleive that the RYAs supported inclusion list is a definate that leaves the 4 into 2 don't go scenario. Yngling Finn Tornado and Star ALL have influential friends and all can put a strong case.

Yngling and Star both keelboats if resources have to be built its better to have 2 keelboats esp as the paralympics use keelboats.

Tornado the only multihull and open class

Finn.... (I could do with help here), but has as stated influential friends, good boat well established olympic pedigree.

IMHO Star and Finn will be dropped.

ISAF have got alot of petitions to go through so should be a liveley meeting!!!!

And came back, which AFAIR hasn't happened to any other dropped class. QED - influential friends. Tornado open class. Actually that's a negative. IOC doesn't like open because it's unacceptable in some cultures.   

I doubt the ISAF will care very much about petitions. That isn't how it works.

Ah. Two falls or two submissions decide the knock-out?

(Only readers of a certain age may follow this.)

Course racing has always been and always will be a marginal part of what windsurfers do. The total number of windsurfers out there well exceeds the number of cat sailors and is probably similar to the number of dinghy sailors, albeit most aren't racing or inside a club structure. Does that mean they don't "count"? It isn't obvious why that should be so. Boardsailing is athletic, televisual and as such well-suited to be an Olympic discipline. 

The Star fills an important slot in the games at the moment. It is where 'all' the previous medalists or to use another's words where 'heroes' end up. It is the class where you can have the multiple world and olympic medalists competing for a gong. I know I've posted this 'factoid' a few times now but no one has retained a Star World champsionship for close to 25 years now. How many other classes can say that? Winning a Star worlds is still widely regarded as the benchmark against which all others are compared. Why else would Schiedt be there? The boats may have been around a bit, but every armchair pundit can understand a long standing event where many previous winners compete against each other for a big prize.
Lets face it all sailing is dull to watch live on TV unless you sail yourself - no matter how fast the boat goes. What the slower boats [and the Star is not exactly slow with a PY around 909] may lack in spectacle they usually make up in the closeness of boats to one another.

The depth of the 'elite' level fleet can be seen in this quote from a press release from this years worlds:-
"This afternoon, I started to count the number of Star sailors at this world championship who have represented their country at the Olympics, placed among the top three in an Olympic class world championship regatta, or have been involved in an America’s Cup campaign. The list is staggering, and admittedly my list is incomplete, but this should give you a general idea of the caliber of the competition that will be vying to qualify their country for the 2008 Olympics and at the same time win this year’s world championship title
Those who have represented their countries multiple times, in the Star class or any other class, at the Olympics: Torben Grael (6), Peter Bromby (4), Mark Reynolds (4), Xavier Rohart (4), Marcelo Ferreira (3), Mateusz Kusznierewicz (3), Hal Haenel (3), Iain Percy (2), Freddie Loof (2), Robert Scheidt (3) and there are at least six other skippers and crews who have been to the Olympics once.
Those who have won multiple gold medals at the Olympics: Torben Grael (2), Marcelo Ferreira (2), Mark Reynolds (2) and Robert Scheidt (2).
Those who have won multiple medals at the Olympics: Torben Grael (3), Marcelo Ferreira (3), Mateusz Kusnierewicz (2), Mark Reynolds (3), Hall Haenel (2) and Robert Scheidt (3).
Those who have won Olympic class world championships: Torben Grael (1), Marcelo Fereirra (2), Freddie Loof (2), Mark Reynolds (2), Xavier Rohart (2), Pascal Rambeau (2), Robert Scheidt (6) and Hamish Pepper .
Those who have placed among the top three in the Finn Gold Cup: Mateusz Kusnierewicz (5), Freddie Loof (4), Andrew Simpson (2) and Xavier Rohart (2).
Those who have been involved in America’s Cup campaigns: Torben Grael, Iain Murray, Andrew Simpson, Andy Horton, Luca Modena, Francesco Bruni, Carl Williams, Andrew Scott and Mark Mendleblatt."

No other class currently has this ability to attract and retain the interest of the top boys. I've just returned form the Star Euros in Garda [105 boats entered from 27 countries BTW] where there were something like 10 boats sailing that were either previous olympic medalists, previous Star world champions or both. Probably a third of them are not even active olympians and several of the current olympians were not there as it was quite soon after the Pre-Olympics.
Not many classes can attract that level of sailor on a regular basis, whilst having a big grass roots following [but not in UK]
Please remember there are something like 2500-3000 actively sailed stars worldwide - not bad for an unpopular and elitist class!

They are awesome boats to sail. Don't sl*g them off unless you have sailed one [goes for most classes BTW]

KennyR

No-one is disputing the quality of the sailors and the racing in the Star class. IMHO I reckon that ISAF, the RYA, and the majority of MNA are going about things the wrong way. I personnal am a advocate of what Tornado_ALIVE proposed. (Also note I have previously put this forward on another thread). The Star/Yngling have the same problem of following in the UK as the multihull although IMO the multihull is in a lot stronger position of following.

2 single handers

2 two man dinghies

2 boards

2 keelboats

2 multihulls

with a male and female class in each category, Total equality, excellent cross section. I put it forward as my perfect list of inclusion. Yes I would leave it to ISAF to decide which classes (pontious pilate mode). Due to mainly my lack of experience in some of the categories.

FYI I have sailed a Star and like you said was impressed by the closeness of the racing, also sailed lasers, 470s and Tornados.

If the list that I and others have put forward were to be adopted personally, which IMHO I can NEVER see happening, I would  drop the 470 and keep the 49er and the new womans skiff, although I can see this being a contentious issue it is just my honest opinion.

Stuart O
Totally agree with you. There is a quite unrefutable logic to the proposal of having male / female events over 5 distinct disciplines.

The point I was trying to make is that while the Star has friends in high places, it also is capable of putting up a good agruement for being included on it's own merits and is not there because of some grand conspiracy by unknown administrators sat on a sunny yacht club veranda in blazers as [apparently] is widely believed.

And equally I apologise in public if you took offence at me suggesting the only resaon the Star and Yngling should be included was because of the paralympics who would use the same facilities.

What I was trying to point out was that there are a lot of considerations that have to be taken into account, cost of building facilities is just one. As the modern trend is for the Olympic host is also the Paralympic host joint facilities is just one aspect and if facilities can be built that can be jointly used then it is far better and cheaper than seperate facilities, also means the quality of these resources are improved.

I certainly stand behind the list I gave which is ALL inclusive , IMO, and does include, dinghy(inc multihull), board AND keelboat.

As to the choice of boats used in each discipline that is a different question. No boat should be there just because it has always been there.

Which is absolutely true. Nevertheless I'd personally prefer the men's keelboat slot to be occupied by something more mainstream and less fragile, such as the Etchells, which also has a better international spread at grassroots level. That said, I'm by no means certain that the Etchells want to be an Olympic class, with all that implies. Some classes prefer to be able to run their own affairs in a way that Olympic classes cannot.  

And no, I've never sailed a Star. I'd love the experience but I'm not too likely to be asked, being a lightweight in both senses of the word!

Sorry to harp on about this again, but the Star at grass roots level is huge worldwide. Something like 2500 - 3000 regularly sailed boats worldwide. Not hundreds - thousands! The class yearbook [log] devotes around 100 pages every year to results of Star races worldwide. That is just results [no reports or other verbage], only really covers trophy races etc, i.e. not general club races, and is typed in fairly small print to fit it all in. Also considering the number of active olympians how come around 75 boats are built every year and have been for the last couple decades. That would be four boats a year for the top 20 teams. surely not?
There are especially big fleets the americas [north and south] and continental Europe with a very strong following in some of the eastern european countries [two of the big ISCYRA events are in Croatia and Hungary next year]. Some of these 'eastern' countries have fleets that go back beyond the soviet era.

Quite happy to take anyone out for a sail in a Star if they are interested [PM me] or suggest a trip to the fleet in Norfolk.

Jim

I am interested what would your ideal 10 be, you can be general as I have been

2 single handed

2 keelboats

2 performance mono

2 boards

2 multihulls

1 for each sex

unfortunatley Kanga that makes 12 and ISAF and IOC are committed to only 10.

I did like the match racing element of previous games in the keelboat class where the top 4 battled it out and I would be happy to see it brought back

Not sure you can say that without knowing the history in detail which from your previous posts I suspect you don't.

So from the responses so far what we can say is that IOC is NOT being inclusive and breaches its own codes of conducts.

So rather than bowing down shouldn't ISAF be protesting and pushing towards 12 classes and expanding?

women's match racing is practiced in many many countries worldwide and apparently at the moment there are clinics over the world introducing it to new women and they are taking off really well. Perhaps there should be mens and womens? But I think the olympics should provide the highest accolade for that event, and men's match racing is the America's Cup.....the debate continues!

470 is a different style of sailing to 49ers as Tornadoes are to Hobie 16s.  Based on that theroy, should we include a few more multihull events.

mens one man dinghy

womens one man dinghy

mens two man dinghy

womens two man dinghy

mens sailboard

womens sailboard

mens keel boat

womens keel boat.

Very hard to argue against these 8 sumissions.  Who needs 10

Why drop a class?????..... lets all go handicap racing then the public won't have a clue!!!!!!!

i think we need a style class - perform moves, like you would with surfing - perhaps wrap the marks in bubble wrap and see how many bubbles the crew pops when the help steers them into the buoy!!!! or keep it sweet like on the water balloon races! much more understandable - most balloons win!

Chris confused on this I said performance monohull didn't say skiff! There are plenty of modern boats that could replace the 470. I don't beleive that just because a class has been there, in the olympics, for years means that it is the right representative of modern sailing. Just as I use the term multihull not Tornado.

Presure was put on the Tornado class to move ahead with the times and step up in performance.  Perhaps the same presure should be put on the 470 class.  Then we would not need a high performance mono class.

There was the problem of being to general then with my list then. No offence meant or taken, but was just trying to get people to look at the list generally without assigning a class to it. Classes would be another question.

If the laser, 470, yngling, star, tornado T boards are decided to be the right boats then so be it.

What was meant was as Jim answered, although he did name classes, a general list of 10 disciplines that they would like to see, and if they wanted to assign classes let them.

Turnturtle; No-one is questioning the commitment, dedication and emotional roller coaster that Team GBR sailors go through on an Olympic campaign. You are absoluteley correct that the 'Team' have done very well, beleive only second to the USA in the ALL time sailing medals and remains top of the GBR medals table yes well ahead of athletics. Unfortunately with the inclusion of the 2 woman 'high performance' skiff type boat, as expected to go through,  2 current olympic classes are going to HAVE to be dropped.

Personally I haven't seen any postings that say a class is crap. Each current class has its merits and its downfalls, IMHPO, as I have stated previously NO class should be there just because it has always been there, unfortunately if that means changing a class, then it should be changed, HOWEVER, IMO all disciplines should be represented, within the 10 classes at the olympics.

Out of interest Kanga what do you sail?

Remembering the 470 has been around since 1963 and first appeared in the Olympics some 13 years later same year the Tornado mades its debut, 1976, it is no wonder that it has the following worldwide it does.

Stephen is right the Tornado whilst the platform is the same the rig and sail plan have evolved making it the recognisable boat it is today. Maybe ISAF do have to look at it more thoroughly, but at least we can have a reasonable debate about what class/classes look like they will be dropped or possibly do to remain the succesful classes they are under the olympic banner.

Oh well not much longer to wait then we can all sit round and say why ISAF have got it wrong!!!!!

But think you might have got something there, perhaps all crews sould have headcams etc, but it is true, that some of the best photographs of boats are taken by the people who understand boats. With modern technology it must be possible to mount cameras anywhere like in marks etc

On previous threads we have posted that TV is not sailings media, basically we don't stand a chance in it, HOWEVER, the internet is our domain.

PS John hows the recovery going?

Laser racing dull! It wasn't in Sydney when Ben chased Robert all round the race course. Part of that was the superb comentary from Eddie Butler though.

The comentary can make a huge difference. You only had to listen to the ITV rugby team at the world cup compared with the usual BBC one.

That one race was exceptional though.  Ok it made a great highlight, but that was a snippet of the entire 2 week event.  And it happened nearly 8 years ago.  has anything else exciting happened in Laser racing since?

Don't get me wrong, I used to sail lasers for years, and love watching in, but would joe Public?

Eddie Butler - but he does that rubbish BBC rugby commentary - maybe he should stick to sailing

I think thats complete cobblers (in the nicest possible way) - whether something is exciting on tv is a combination of many different aspects and I don't think I've ever seen a sailing event where all the things have come together at once. 

If they did then it would be just as good as anything else - and to be fair the AC was pretty close - if they could have got the commentators from the AC-radio onto the tv feed then it would have been superb.  And maybe made the courses shorter (same course layout but completed in an hour would have been better).

The Sydney Laser duel showed people can focus on a small number of high profile competitors well (a good point of the bodge job medal races)  - unfortunately the IOC/ISAF have this 'purity' thing going on so unfortunately the rest of the time we have big fleets of identical white boats.  Rubbish for spectating.  This, more than the classes is what needs to change....but I'm sure it won't....

Shouldn't this thread be WHICH Olympic class(es) have to go?

If we want a TV friendly boat at a light wind venue, 18' skiff?

Obviously if we want classes that are good for paralympics as well, then would that be 2.4m? Or Access?!

This was posted on another thread and on another forum

Interesting stuf on this topic by a former top man in ISAF;

Paul Henderson: Sailing and the 2012 Olympics

To Fellow Buttheads:
I trust you will take the following biased opinion as being from a recently excommunicated "Pope of Sailing" and also a Member of the IOC. The IOC, in their wisdom, set the maximums for the 2012 London Games at 28 sports, 300 events, and 10,500 athletes. Here is what that means for sailing:

1) On sailing being kicked out of the Olympics:
Each sport is voted on by the 120 Members of the IOC, and it takes 50% +1 to remain Olympic. For the vote on events to be held at the London 2012 games, sailing received over 70% support. Of the sports that were dropped for 2012, Baseball got 35% and Softball 50% (missing the +1). Rugby 7's and Squash were voted on to replace the two deleted sports. However, they got only approx. 35% of the vote so were not admitted. The result is that there will be only 26 sports for London and a slot for 500 more athletes and two missing events. Several years ago a tabloid polled 100 of the movers and shakers of the Olympics who were asked the question: “What sports should remain in the Olympics?” Amongst these people, sailing ranked 8th, tying with Soccer out of the 33 sports, which included the "wanabees". By the way, Sailing is the sport the now IOC President started in as he rose up the IOC ladder. Long story short, sailing looks solid.

2) On sailing being promoted on TV during the Olympics:
Of the 28 sports, 14 get minimal TV. Sailing is one of them. Nothing sailing does will ever change this. Sailing is a participatory sport. However, Sailing was the number 5 sport in Olympic hits on the Internet. That is our medium and to prostitute the integrity of the sport for some "pie-in-the-sky" TV dream is ridiculous.

3) On sailing needing more countries competing in the Olympics:
Sailing gets close to 60 nations, which places it in the top half of the 28 sports. Sailing has had over 20 countries win medals in the last several Olympics, which is excellent, and shows how broad-based our sport is. This statement has many facets, as sailors must be sent by their National Olympic Committee (NOC). The Sailing authority has little power, including US Sailing Assn (USSA) and the Canadian Yachting Assn (CYA). Many countries have much more restrictive policies than the ISAF standard imposed by the IOC. While USA, by an act of congress, must send any athlete who qualifies (after years of fighting Canada also), many European countries will not send a competitor unless they are ranked in the top 8 countries. Even if you have 40 countries allowed in the Laser, it does not matter to the Europeans. If you are not in the top 8, you’re not going. How many countries can you fit into the top 8?

The emerging countries have difficulty qualifying at major regattas, so ISAF fills with these countries. I personally took on this responsibility to take the flak. The truth is that if a sailor could get their NOC to send them, then we could find a slot in the Laser and Boards. In the other classes, possibly only one competitor in each class was ever discarded. At 400 sailors and 11 classes, it was a minor inconvenience.

4) The 2012 Games: 10 Events, 380 sailors and more Women:
ISAF received the 11th event for 2000, which put the Star back in with the agreement that the event would be used in Athens 2004 for the Women's Keelboat. ISAF agreed that we would go back to 10 for London 2012. There is really no need, but the IOC is holding ISAF to the agreement (too bad for the UK - the premier sailing nation). Dropping 1 class and going down from 400 to 380 really means each remaining class gets more, as each of the now 11 events has each more than the 20 sailors deleted. In Savannah 1996, the women were at 19%. The IOC demands each sport be over 30%. In Athens 2004, sailing had over 35% women. Sailing is hitting this target, and any class changes will not be touching this requirement.

Having pontificated on the above, lets get to my bias on the classes. Sailors sail boats and that should be the criteria, not the equipment (classes). People and the sport should be the focus. ISAF does not pick classes per se. The classes are only the equipment used in a specific event. Sailing, like most sports, dictates the size and shape of the athlete done by the equipment selected. Sailing must pick the classes that allow sailors of all size and gender to compete. Singlehanded sailing is very restrictive on the size of the sailor as it dictates a narrow band of physique. I am also accused of being adamant that the sport is "Sailing" not "Air Rowing" (as the boardsailors do). Justifiably so! Therefore I would consider the following for the 10 classes:

1) There must be 4 classes where the women can compete: Single, Double, Keel, Mixed Doubles.
2) The Finn, Star, Women's Keelboat must remain so as to have classes which are geared to larger body shapes.
3) Cats and Skiffs should be sailed as Kinetics is of minimal help. Sailing is the sport! I would have a skiff for men and another for the women. I would also have two Cats - one high performance and the other mixed doubles.
4) The Laser is unchallenged for men and women.

If there are any slots left then let others, and they will, decide. There is another issue that must not be forgotten. Sailing is one of the Summer Sports, which is accessible to the disabled in the Paralympics. It is essential the keelboats remain so the facilities are in place for these wonderful, challenged sailors.

Paul Henderson
Ex Everything Else

Well the Women's classes are decided:

 Windsurfer - women
One Person Dinghy - women
Two Person Dinghy - women
Keelboat Match - women

If they have a womens match racing (Yngling removed possibly) then they'll probably have a mens match racing with the star removed... Just speculation, but you never know.

Ryan

www.visser49erracing.wordpress.com

It seems to me it would be inconsistent to have women's match racing and not men's (although you culd argue men have the AC as a showcase event).  Does that mean the Star fleet racing is in jeopardy?  And why does the match racing need to be in keel boats anyway?  Surely it could be done just as well (and much cheaper) in, say, Fireflies?

Its interesting to note that less than 10% of the respondents to Andy Rice's poll were women.  In my experience, that is a fair reflection of the proportion of women who race.  They might consider themselves quite fortunate to be getting 40% or 50% of the spaces at the Games...

Good point.  what really annoys me is the fact that only one boat per country can compete.  the brits very often have sevral boats in the top 20 in each fleet, yet only one boat goes.  Is that a fair reflection of the best sailors?

The argument against it is to avoid team racing, but this doesn't happen in events with multiple competitors from each countrie such as the marathon or 800 metre races...

www.visser49erracing.wordpress.com

well not officially anyway......have some friends who are distance runners and they say it does go on look at the Kenyans

i think you need a keelboat in the games, covering all disiplines of our sport, hence the uproar about multihulls

Ryan

I am actually with you on this one. It does seem stupid to me....just look at team GBRs current top Finn sailors, either should medal and either should medal with Gold....perhaps thats the problem, teams like GBR could medal twice and then the minnows as they have been called on this thread would just give up as they would soon realise that they were just numbers.

My point was it is obvious to all that team racing goes on other sports and the IOC allows it even in individual events such as distance running, cycling, tri-athlon, yet we have a rule than bans it and yet are only allowed 1 boat to compete...... I suppose its all to do with the number of sailors allowed as opposed to the best sailors

Also, I know many sailors from the same country don't train together as they are fierce rivals.  why would they want to take a boat out to let their biggest rival win a medal?  However, I have a number of really good mates in the 49er fleet that I'd be more likely to help if it meant they could win a medal... why does team racing only have to work with boats from your own country?  Guys train with sailors from other countries, whats stopping them team racing? 

visser49erracing.wordpress.com

I never expected that ... we'll see if it stands ...

Hope this does stand as it is the most representive of what people sail. Keel boats are vastly out numbered by cats, dinghys and windsurfers.

If physical fitness is more important than sailing skill then I'm all for droping the Star.

As for statistics, I was just thinking of my personal observations of various dinghy parks.

I am sure there are more keelboat sailors than dinghys in the world ...

Personally im pleased and dissapointed by the proposal.

Pleased as a multihull sailor

BUT, dissapointed the keelboats haven't been included in the list. For me this is NOT an inclusive list, and representaive of all forms of sailing. IMHO I think the Finn should have been dropped and replaced by a keelboat at minimum....sorry to all the Finn supporters.

Good point Jim. I was thinking more of Open keel boats not ones with lids.