high performance racing
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3194
Printed Date: 13 Jul 25 at 4:11am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: high performance racing
Posted By: Guests
Subject: high performance racing
Date Posted: 16 Jul 07 at 6:17pm
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maybe abit of a stupid question but ive sailed high performance boats for he last year and i currently sail (helm) a laser 5000, before this ive raced toppers and lasers.
this summer im thinking of doing some racing in my 5000 and maybe a mates 4000 but since ive never raced high perormance boats before i just wondered if u guys can give me any tips or tricks for high performance racing like starting etc cheers |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Jul 07 at 7:08pm
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Just remember they don't bounce as well as a Topper when you crash at the leeward mark... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 16 Jul 07 at 8:56pm
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Generally just duck people rather than trying to go above them. ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 16 Jul 07 at 9:07pm
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Sailorboi. If you pm me i will try and help you as much as i can! With regards to starting. If your in a mixed handicap fleet. Try and get a good start in clear wind if you're the fastest boat and also just duck slow boats such as lasers as you really just have to try and perform as well as you can. Oh and in lighter days always try and gybe and tack towards pressure. Alex ------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 16 Jul 07 at 9:42pm
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I think racing a high performance boat is a step up in ability compared to sailing one. A much bigger step up than when in slower boats. Sailing a 4000 as I do I often encounter people who have sailed them when on holiday and think they will do well at racing. Invariably they do badly and capsise a lot, many are put off which is a shame. I suppose the big difference is that they have been able to tack and gybe when they've wanted to, not when other boats or the course has forced them to. Similarly they have not had to think ahead about: which gybe to get onto after a windward mark, which gybe to come into the leeward mark, and when to tack to clear other boats and arrive set up correctly for the windward mark. You'll have noticed I've mentioned transistions that you have to make under pressure something you rarely have to do when just blasting, and as you know its the transistions which are the tricky bits with high performance boats. So enjoy the new challenge and don't get put off by poor results, and let us know how it goes. |
Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 8:28am
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I agree racing is a completely different game from just sailing. And racing high performance boats is slightly different from racing lasers… or at least it is at club level. Rather than stress over boat on boat tactics or wind shifts concentrate more on clear air, pressure and ultimately boat speed. Not to say that all the normal things aren’t important just that a fast boat in clear air will always beat a slow boat, the gains are so much greater.
Ian |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 9:28am
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Is a laser 4k a high performance boat? I consider high performance to be 49er, 14, cherub etc etc. ------------- |
Posted By: Dead Air
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 9:45am
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The 4K sails off of apparaent wind, seems a pretty good definition of a high performance boat in this day and age |
Posted By: allanorton
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 11:33am
name a boat that sails off wind that isn't apparent ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 2:05pm
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.... this one???
Till noon we quietly sailed on, Under the keel nine fathom deep, . yeah, what is high performance? |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 3:20pm
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I think the term "high performance" is more of a description of the sailor. You need to perform to a high standard to be able to sail the boat. If your crap then you wont be sailing it very well at all! You do not need to perform well as a sailor in a topper for example, but to sail a full rig laser you have to perform better.
------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 3:42pm
I consider a high performabce boat one that scares me and a 4k doesnt! ------------- |
Posted By: HannahJ
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 3:45pm
Well different boats scare different people! (Like mine when it's been in the garage for weeks and still needs mending )------------- MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin" The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 3:49pm
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I'm omly jking Hannah! But i still dont think a 4k is high performance. I think it is just a fast dinghy ------------- |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 4:21pm
4k will beat a fair few cherubs on the water, even the odd 05 rules one. ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 4:27pm
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PT of 908 for the 4K, 970 for the Cherub (i think). Definitely needs changing!.
------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 4:45pm
When its honking probably not, but VERY close the rest of the time, downwind the cherubs pull away, but upwind 29er/4k etc will catch up a hell of lot. anyway..... ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 5:03pm
| I don't actually think speed round the track is that great a measure of high performance. A 90ft cruising yacht will go a lost faster than most dinghies round a suitably large course in most conditions, but it isn't a high performance boat... I'm not brave enough to suggest a definition though! |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 5:27pm
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Is an RS 300 high performance? Certainly difficult to sail, but very slow compared to a 49er, which in turn is very slow compared to a record beaking windsurfer, which is slow compared to a racing powerboat, which is slow compared to a world record breaking powerboat. Does that mean they are all high performance, or just the fastest of all? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 6:04pm
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planing upwind must come into the equation somewhere. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 6:17pm
| The photo on the homepage of the Mirror blasting downwind looks like High Performance to me. |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 7:14pm
Well yeah they will because he Cherub is shorter and twin wire! It would probably give they 14 a kicking in drfiting stuff ------------- |
Posted By: hum3
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 9:48pm
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Some time in the front of whatever you're racing will CERTAINLY help. It means that you can focus on what is actually happening around you a bit more rather than keeping the mast in the sky... Get your bearings a bit first (upwind and downwind angles etc), then go for it! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Jul 07 at 10:08pm
| a high performance boat is a boat that performs highly |
Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 18 Jul 07 at 6:04am
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Great definition ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: k_kirk
Date Posted: 18 Jul 07 at 10:53am
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To answer this question perhaps one should read and reference High Performance Sailing by Frank Bethwaite. It makes my brain ache everytime I try to go through it but I'm convinced one of these days I'll get it!
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Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 18 Jul 07 at 2:57pm
Somehow i don't think a cherub can give a 14 a kicking in the light stuff. 14 have the extra waterline length plus much bigger sails ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 18 Jul 07 at 10:07pm
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i think he meant a 4k would kick a 14 in a drifter. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 18 Jul 07 at 10:10pm
I was talking about the 4000 u fool lol!!! ------------- |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 19 Jul 07 at 7:18pm
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A well sailed 4k can beat a 49er in a drifter! Whereas a well sailed 5k will beat almost everything in a drifter!! ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 19 Jul 07 at 8:59pm
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i reckon a well sailed IC mut be pretty good in very little wind. easily driven hull, efficient rig. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Jul 07 at 10:14pm
| ICs are not that great in the very light. You've got small sails and, because the hull is so very long, quite a lot of wetted area - much the same as a Cherub for instance. But as soon as you do get a bit of speed and form drag comes into play, well, suddenly its another game entirely. |
Posted By: spin cycle
Date Posted: 19 Jul 07 at 10:58pm
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back to the original question make sure you set the boat up well for the conditions and don't hold back at the start, its better to be near the front rather than ducking around slower boats. Rs 400's use to be absouletly pigs to pass. As for the rest of the thread well nothing beats water line lenght in light winds, but then in those conditions playing the gusts or shifts right tend to be far more important than whatever the boat. If you read bethwaite then from his reasoning the cherub should be equal upwind scp is equal but I think Paul Biekers thinking about upwind sailing is far more important and that high performance dinghies atre in the semi forced stage most of the time up wind in a breeze ( sorry cherubs but equivalent waterline lenght still plays ) ie you've no chance against 14's 49ers etc upwind. Downwind its adiffernet ball game as its down to drag and since the cherub has ee haw in its back end compared to some of the others then game on. the late great Dave Ov said that the 29er was one of the fastest boats that he sailed downwind because he cold drive it hard in a big breeze and not pitchpole. from a personnal viewpoint look at the scottish skiff travellers the spread is from 4000's and cherubs which took a handicap drop to qualify to 18 ft skiffs its interesting how high performance classes do. the mps dominates due to numbers but also th top 3 sailors in the world also do the events. In sub 15 knots it was how sailed not the handicap that mattered ie a well sailed 4 tonner would beat a 49er around the course ! hANDICAPS ARE ARE AN AVERAGE OF CLUB RETURNS IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEM MAKE SURE THAT YOUR CLUB DOES THE RETURNS. THEY CAN WORK WITH THE NUMBERS THEY GET !
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