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not sure about this one

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3101
Printed Date: 25 Jun 25 at 7:30am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: not sure about this one
Posted By: lssyac
Subject: not sure about this one
Date Posted: 18 Jun 07 at 12:36pm

I was on duty this weekend and we shortened the course at a mark as there was not a lot of wind. There was about 5 boat lengths room around the mark (we sail on a pond) so we set the committee boat about 2.5 to 3 boat lenghts away from the mark (with navigatable water around us), and set it such that the boats were coming down a reach/broadreach towards us. The mark was to be left to port in the normal course of the race and the wind direction meant it was a gybe mark. In this case the committee boat had to be left to starboard.

So two boats (merlins) were heading towards us on starboard, one was give way boat as he was faster and overtaking to windward. The outside, right of way boat started luffing about three to four boat lenghts from the mark/finish line/committee boat. The overtaking boat responded by going up as well. The outside right of way boat pushed so hard the overtaking boat had to tack to avoid the committee boat, before crossing the line in second.

There was a bit of shouting as the windward boat wanted to protest as they felt hard done by. they asked me what the rules were as they wanted to protest and i had to respond that i did not know the rules well enough to comment.

My feelings are that if you are coming up to a 'obstruction' (the committee boat), and the course dictates that it has to be passed to one side, to starboard in this case, that the outside boat should have given water at the point they were either two boat lengths away, or about to round the mark. I feel the outside boat was in the right to start luffing, but feel that at the point they were about to round or were coming up to the obstruction they should have given water.

If water had been given i think the outside boat would have finished beind the overtaking windward boat, but cannot be sure, since the luff would have meant the angles changed.

There was not protest, just the usual banter afterwards, however, i would like to get some clarification in case i am ever in this situation.

Thanks




Replies:
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 18 Jun 07 at 1:55pm

As Race Officer you should have said no comment on the first asking. You can't really comment until the time limit for protests has expired and you have received no protests.

This could be seen as making a prior judgement which you cannot do.

 

Good question though. Is the committee boat a mark of the course and if so is there a water entitlement? If the answer is no then the boat forced to tack because they are to windward and overtaking has no case.



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Jun 07 at 2:52pm

Mark An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side, and a race committee boat surrounded by navigable water from which the starting or finishing line extends.

So leeward was in the wrong.

I don't see any reason why as race officer you should either "no comment" or be expected to comment. The race officer isn't the protest committee.



Posted By: lssyac
Date Posted: 18 Jun 07 at 3:43pm

Thanks for that. I knew something was not right with the situation, it didn't look right.

As for saying something or nothing, i guess i should stay quiet as i would not like to give outside assistance.

I remember sailing up at west kirby one year and we were supposed to go through the start line on each lap, anyway, just as we were sailing on a nice lift the wrong side of the committee boat, i noticed the whole of the race team were looking at us, saying nothing but they had a look on their faces, it jogged the memory of what we had to do, turn it round and get through the line. Outside assistance or not?

Thanks for clarifying the thoughts/situation in my scenario.



Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 18 Jun 07 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Mark An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side, and a race committee boat surrounded by navigable water from which the starting or finishing line extends.

So leeward was in the wrong.

I don't see any reason why as race officer you should either "no comment" or be expected to comment. The race officer isn't the protest committee.

So in this case (if I understand it correctly) the 2 boat length rule for water at the mark would apply.

Also on the second point I imagined that the race officer would be involved as part of the race committee. Or at least he could be called as a witness by both parties hoping to prove their point.



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Jun 07 at 5:48pm

Yes, 2BL applies at a finishing mark.

At major events the race officer is not normally a member of a protest committee. At club level it's often a matter of rounding up whoever can be found.



Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 19 Jun 07 at 8:35am
Just one thing to throw in.....

If memory serves the '2 boat length rule' (referred to as 'the zone')  is not actually a rule. I believe it is defined as 'about to round or pass' which is commonly considered to be 2 boat lengths but in heavy weather can be more depending on the amount of sail and boat handling required to round the mark.

I could be wrong though.....

As for protest committees do you not have to get agreement from both parties that they are happy with composition of the committee? I was involved at a protest in the Blaze nationals and they asked if both parties were happy (I was quite surprised).

Paul




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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 19 Jun 07 at 10:28am

Originally posted by jeffers

I could be wrong though.....

I'm afraid you are. 2BL is specified in the RRS. I think some multihull class rules may override it but that would need to be referenced in the SIs. 

Standard protest committee procedures do indeed suggest that both parties are asked if they are happy with the composition of the committee.

 



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Jun 07 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Just one thing to throw in.....If memory serves the '2 boat length rule' (referred to as 'the zone')  is not actually a rule. I believe it is defined as 'about to round or pass'


Yes and No. You're quite correct about the water being required when about to pass rather than specifically 2BL, but 2BL is also in the rules as the point at which overlaps cannot be made or broken after - If you break an overlap within 2bl then its tough, you still have to let them in, and if you make an overlap after 2BL its tough, you've got no rights and have to bail out or do your turns.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 Jun 07 at 11:34am
Jim,

You are a master. I dug through and found the wording. The question that always gets asked is does the Zone count after the mark as well. IE are you safe from being luffed hard until you are outside of the Zone again or does it stop as you pass? I always assumed it was a circle around the mark.

Paul


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Crafty
Date Posted: 21 Jun 07 at 11:49am

At a recent laser event i was at i was confused by this as well, ( water after the mark )

We were still in the two boat length and rounded the mark, i had a better mark rounding than him and was just higher than him but behind

He decided to tack and i just nicked the back of his boat, i did not have time to react to avoid his boat ( i was also on starboard )

Who was in the wrong ?



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Laser Radial/4.7 144929


Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 21 Jun 07 at 12:19pm
As I understand it (and I could be wrong) He can luff you but not tack.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Jun 07 at 12:22pm
Very difficult to analyse specific incidents without the actual info the PC would have - drawing and most especially both parties' version of events.

1) Were the boats overlapped during the mark rounding?
2) If so who was inside
3) What rounding was it, reach to beat, run to beat, beat to run or what?
4) was it necessary to tack to complete the rounding, or was it optional and he could have reasonably gone off on either tack
5) Had you both completed the mark rounding - ie were on your best course for the next mark. Remember 2BL isn't relevant here.


Posted By: Crafty
Date Posted: 21 Jun 07 at 12:39pm

the boats were not overlapped during the mark rounding

it was a run to a beat, it was optional to round the mark

yes we had completed the the mark rounding and starting the beat



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Laser Radial/4.7 144929


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 21 Jun 07 at 12:53pm
sounds like he was tacking in your water putting him in the wrong.

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600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 21 Jun 07 at 1:19pm
Presmably if the mark had been rounded and left astern Rule 18 does not apply and other When Boats Meet Rules do?


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 Jun 07 at 3:25pm
I would agree with Roger that he cal luff but not tack 9but in doing so he has to give sufficient time and opportunity to react.

I was involved in a protest at the Blaze nats over something very similar (the PC decided the other boat breached 16.1 so i won). I would call it as 16.1, any other thoughts?

Obviously we are just going on what we can see in our minds eye....


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74



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