Hi,

 I was just wondering what sort of top speeds Toppers can go in a big blow because i know that lasers can go about 16-17 knots in a force seven and i no toppers arent fast compared to lasers but what sort of speed do any of you lot  think they are capable of going????

Thanks

lol ok thx Harry ye i no it feels pretty gd with the spray in ur face dunnit!

Thx

lol ye harry i no what you mean.........i sail at chew valley sailing club and when you get dunked your whole body goes numb........brrrrrrrrrr!

dont worry lol i still sit there in the freezing water looking like a lemon in my WETSUIT (i dont have a drysuit either)!.............wat dyu sail sailor grl??????

O yes and sailor girl do you have one of those new C2 rig things???

Ive always wanted to try a byte.......they look quite fast (are they??) are they similar speed 2 a laser?????

c ya

omg guys (not counting the sailor girl cos shes cool) you really need to get some decent taste in boats

b14s are good  or something along the lines of 49ers, tornado's, hurricanes etc  

yep i agree i was just saying my dream boats are..... the list i said

and i agree there are lots of cool boats like rs600's and lasers ....

lol tru ye i no that toppers are pretty *&^% but im only 14 and cant exactly afford a 49er or an rs800 (beleive me id love one) or even a 29er so i have to stick with that sorta stuff!!!!!!!!

Id love a go in a hurricane cat.....are they amazingly fast????

yes i sail them all the time and there is only one word for them that is awsome!!

btw (by the way) most people dont know this but they can be picked up for the same price as a good laser or even less for some of the old ones and because they are built like a tank they are just as good

o right.............cool do they have a trapeze and asymmetric or symmetric??? sorry lol i dont no ANYTHING about cants exept that they look bloody amazing and look like theyre flying when its windy!

Where do you sail yours hurri????

o ye and sailor girl.........sorry im really interested in those b14 skiff things

......how the hell do you hike off of them cos they look like trapezing racks and look really slidy.....

are you clipped on 2 somethin like on a trapeze or nt cos i no they have no trapeze bt are you on somethin similar??

O ye and what are those straps for that look like snowboardin bindings???

thx

....OMG  and 1 more thing, someone sed in another topic that 29ers are hard to sail......is that true cos im 14 and about 9-10 stone nd have been sailin 4 bout 4 yrs a bit more.

 I really want a go in a skiff type thing soon and i guess 29er would be the best bet (ill have 2 plead 2 go on some1's @ my club) but are they like way faster than somethin like a 420 or a fireball????????

thx

em i sail on the home of cats the south east of england

and yes they do have trapeze's hurricanes are twin trapeze

the hurricane is normally a two sail boat and is still very quick!!!!

but in SX mode it has a self tacking jib and asymmetric from a snuffer more like a tornado sport!!

lol that reminds me of pico knee if u have ever had the job to teaching people to sail picos in a shortie your knees bleed by the end of the day

the sunsail guys used to call this pico knee

i think the laser center have changed the grade of roughness on the pico decks because they arnt as bad anymore

Ive saileed a 29er before theyre amazing!!!! before you decide to move into a cat look at the nationals attenance figures, you could end up with 29 at the nats. or something ridicoulously stupid like that eg: hurricane! Thats one thing toppers are good for lol!!!

ok i admit it was not a huge turn out but look where the europeans were this year muppet!!of course the turnout will be low with a europeans in northen ireland!!!

and 2 years ago the hurricane got 50 at minnis bay a huge turn out for a cat fleet!!!!

oh and another point the hurricane has the biggest attended travelers series in catamaran racing

so beat that

oh 29ers are great to sail, quite fast- and you get the hang of it after a while! I'd do a year on the topper national circuit first though, see how good you are there before moving on, and finding a goood crew/ helm.

Btw to answer the original question i've been told 12 knots for a topper in a real blow!?

k thx harry

Lol are you @ skool like me???????

Lol ye i no

Is a contender a skiff???

If the hull planes on the aft quarter it is considered a skiff and skiffs plane in fairly light winds like the 49er which will plane in a bout 10 knots of wind whereas to get a topper planing you need about 15 knots of wind!!!!!!!!!!

I think!

I think it comes down to hull form, Skiffs have large flat sections aft, distinct chines and minimal rocker to promote early planing.  Although originally the term was applied to rowing boats with similar forms the current use tends to imply boats with very large sail areas as well.  Its not a dictionary definition, but I think it covers most of it. 

Or, courtesy of dictionary.com : A flatbottom open boat of shallow draft, having a pointed bow and a square stern and propelled by oars, sail, or motor.

Right Julian and Frank have a complicated formula for working out which boats are a 'skiff' and which are not. It basicly comes down to 2 different numbers one for upwind and another for down. As an example a 29er is both of these numbers making it just a skiff, anything low than these numbers isn't and anything higher is.

Have a look at http://www.29er.org/9851,02,2-0.html - http://www.29er.org/9851,02,2-0.html  its Julian explaing this alot better than I have.

You dinghys that range in speed from the Optimist to the 18 footer, and Cats that have lower handicaps than that (quickly dodging the cats are faster than monos - oh no they aren't saga).

As far as I can see "skiff" is now just fashion statements - the NEW Labour of sailing.  "Skiff" gives the impression that the boat is much faster and more exciting than a "dinghy".  But if the Laser 4000 is a skiff, how come it is no faster round a course than a 505 which isn't?

The 12s, 14s, 16s & 18s are all skiffs because they started that way.  UK Cherubs are becoming closer to 12s than the Aus/NZ Cherubs.

But Int. Moths are also called skiff types as opposed to the old scows because they are pointy at the front and square(ish) at the back - as per the dictionary definition.  8m2 is not a shed load of sail, but they do go incredibly fast for an 11ft boat (even without foils).

At least if you say skiff now everyone pictures a boat with an assymetric kite and lots of battens in the sails. But at the end of the day - does it really matter?? 

Chris249 - let us know when your book comes out...

Hi Chris, for me the asymmetric is part of the equation - so the 5o5 is a dinghy and the 4000 a skiff.  There are other factors which for me make a boat a skiff, trapeze, able to plane to windward, no foredeck, fully battened sails.  But I'm not hooked on the idea that they must have all these features.  I'd include the B14 (no trapeze), I'd even include the Moth at a push and both these boat have fordecks.  So for me a skiff is just shorthand for a type of boat which has taken certain ideas for the 18ft Skiff.

i think the word skiff means a boat that is

1 very quick

2 for advanced sailors

3 costs alot to run

anyone else like to add any??

Firstly Chris249 I was not saying that it definate but someones idea!

I would call a skiff, something that planes upwind in under 10/11 knots with an asymmetric. They normally have more modern self depowering masts with fibre/carbon tips and generally myler, carbon, kevlar sails to hold the shape. I think that if do this there arn't many boats that fit in that poeple wouldn't call a skiff except the International canoe.

Really windy like 25 30 knots true? Get some top 29er sailors out in 35 knots and then your change your mind.

hate to upset you lot but i doubt you are going as fast as you think.  In 25knots and dead flat water our 49er used to top out at about 23knots (gps) and that felt really fast.

The world speed record is now with the windsurfers: 46.2 knots, now i bet that feels fast,  at some points on finian was clocked at 49.1knots down the 500 metre course, now thats scary

James

this is about like the bar storys how you almost died out there!!!

it always seems that you are going far quicker than you are mainly because of the proximity to the water

Yeah, but Redback, it can't be the assymetric that makes a skiff, surely, because in 100+ year history of skiffs, assys have only been around for less than 20 years. What happened when assys were coming in? Were some of the 18s (the assy ones)  skiffs and the rest not skiffs till they changed? Did the 12s and 16s  and 14s suddenly become "non skiffs" until they got assys? They were the same boat as the assy "skiffs" upwind, so where they all "skiffs" upwind and did they become 12' "skiffs" and 12' "non-skiffs" when they set their kites, depending whether they were assy or not?

And three of the classes which remain closest to the "real" skiff formula, the Historical and Classic skiffs, still use "normal" poles (well, as normal as anything that comes in four pieces is!).

Furthermore, if it's an assy that makes a skiff, then the RS 200 and RS 400 and Topaz (IIRC) and mebbe even Assy Canoe are skiffs, and that just ain't so. So it can't just be the assy, even allowing for changes in terminology.

I don't think the 12' skiffs plane to windward, but defining planing properly is a huge can of worms. I KNOW the historical skiffs don't plane to windward.

Most skiffs (16s, 12s, many 14s, Bethwaite 18s) have foredecks so it's not the lack of a foredeck.

Down here, many boats from the Sabot (like an Oppie) upwards have full battens, so it's not full battens.

Finally, not all that many ideas came from the 18; assys and (arguably) flex-tip rigs is about it.

Hurricane, re "i think the word skiff means a boat that is

1 very quick

2 for advanced sailors

3 costs alot to run

anyone else like to add any??"

Does that mean your Hurricane is a skiff? Does it mean an FD is a skiff? After all it's faster than a L 4000 or (IIRC) a B14; it's for advances sailor, and it costs a lot to run. The same applies to the Canoe and the Norfolk Punt and they are definitely not skiffs.

Finally, the "real" skiffs often don't cost the sailors a lot to run, just their sponsors and clubs!

Skiffman, I wasn't having a go at you; it's just that I think it's important to keep the term "skiff" as something that means something, not just a marketing term for boats that some big manufacturer wants people to think are skiffs.

Planing upwind may not be a skiff marker - the 16s and 12s are in Aussie terms "displacement hulls" now - the older boats were designed to plane earlier, the current ones are designed to act sort of like Moths, just slicing upwind without achieving dynamic lift above their static C of G - which is the definition of planing. Whether they are truly planing is very hard to determine. Surely we can't have a definition of "skiff" that chucks out the real skiffs?

And if we apply the definition of more RM than a classic dinghy (which is pretty simple 'cause almost no classic dinghies have more than one person using a hiking aid) AND more sail for length than a normal dinghy, then it's pretty simple. It brings in all those that are definitely skiffs and excludes all those that are definitely dinghies.

If nobody knows what the word "skiff" definately means, sounds like there isn't much point using it!

I think that there are two main uses for the word "Skiff"

The sothern hemesphere one for all the historical skiff classes previously mentioned on the list

And the Northern hemisphere one which is a marketing term which has taken on the word "Skiff" to describe anything modern that they want people to think is fast a bit like saying you have a "Sports Car" that you use to tow your "Skiff"

That's a good one Granite

Granite surely has the answer here.

For "skiff" in this part of the world read "sexy".  Just a hyped up manufacturer's term meaning modern, fast, something to aspire to.

I sailed an IC for many years but would never describe it as a skiff. Yet an asymmetric IC will see off a lot of the new so-called "skiffs" in the right conditions.

What's in a name?

excuse me i never said i thought a hurricane is a skiff

someone miss read what i said!!!

and there is no-way a cat can be a skiff!!!!!!!!

Hurri, you wrote;

 "i think the word skiff means a boat that is

1 very quick

2 for advanced sailors

3 costs alot to run

Chris,

Having owned 2 Hurricanes

1, Yes Very Quick

2, Well, not the ideal learner boat

3, Does in no way cost a lot to run.  You can pick up a competitive 2nd hand boat for 5K and that is just about all you need to spend.  New jib once a year (dunno how much these days) and a few bits ofn string now and then. 

actually they are more like 4k now so even better value for money

and with the extra cash you have u could buy an SX kit (spinny + self tacking jib) for it!!!

Eek... Very cheap 'mean machine'.  Now I wonder what a Hurri without jib and kite would be like single handed

i met a guy who said he sailed a hurricane single handed quite a lot

he said it was fun up till when the gusts started to hit

But was he a 'large gent'

I'm 'only' 12 1/2 stone.......

Firstly I like Granite's referance to a sports car.  Many call a Hyundai Tiburon or Interga Type R for example, a sports car........    But realy!!!!!!!

OK, I see a true skiff as only the 12s, 14s, 16s, 18s + the historicals ie 6, 8, 10 ect to 18s.

Skiffs as far as I see it is a class name used for these boats that originated in the early 1900s in Australia.  ie 16 foot skiff.  The boats are not known by any other name.

A Cherub is a Cherub (Dinghy) and a 12 foot skiff is a 12 foot skiff.

A 29er is a skiff trainer but not a skiff.....  It is a 29er.

A 49er is not called a skiff, it is a 49er...... Dinghy.  A very fast high performance dinghy but a dinghy non the less.

The Skiff is an important part of Australian sailing history and I feel the term skiff is thrown about to readly.  A 49er I feel is not a skiff for example but is skiff like in some aspects.

Call a skiff a skiff and other classes buy their class names.

Feel free to flame away

I think that the 29er and 49er are definatly skiffs!!!!

But don't Cherubs and 12 foot skiffs compete in the same worlds?!?! So how can a cherub not be a skiff.

With respect, Skiffman, surely the definition must be based on something more than "I think" or "it looks cool and goes fast".

From the very first 12' skiff Interdominion (there is no worlds for 12s) they allowed dinghies to compete - but only because the 12' skiffs wanted to beat up on them to show how fast they were. In fact, the dinghies won, and the skiffies were REALLY peeved off; it got quite nasty around the club because no-one called the dinghies (sorta like old Cherubs) skiffs and they wanted skiffs to win. They knew that skiffs were different from dinghies.

The same thing happened when the Cherubs started racing; the 12'er guys normally speak of "skiffs" and of Cherubs, racing with the skiffs. Maybe it's like Hobie Tigers and F18s, the other F18s can race with the Tigers but that doesn't mean they ARE Tigers.

In the second Interdominion, the rules allowed a cat to enter and clean up. So unless we'll call a cat a skiff, we can't go on what is allowed to race in the Interdominions to rule what a "skiff" is.

Tornado Alive sails 18s and other skiffs, and other classes that are claiming to be skiffs but aren't, so he has a good viewpoint. I'm actually willing to call a 49er a skiff, but hmmmm, maybe I should apply one of my own rules and say that in the bar and the Squaddie or Belmont 16s and see if I survive.....

I just realised, reading Jim's post, one probable reason why the term is viewed  differently up north and down here.  From a northern hemisphere viewpoint, the Cherub, the Javelin and other southern dinghies only arrived there in the late '60s, and they were lighter than the "normal" UK dinghies, so they seem a lot like a skiff. Then there was the big noise about skiff types when the B18/49er/5000/Boss/4000/B14 arrived, and the "skiff" tag fitted the new wave.

But from an Australian/NZ viewpoint, the dinghies actually lead the way towards the modern lightweight boat. The skiffs were lumbering round-bilged overweight non-trap beasts until dinghy influences like the NZ IA and Z and I-14 dinghies, the Gwen 12, the Cherub, the FD, the Sharpie, and the VJ arrived to show the skiffies what you could do with trapezes, lightweight hard chined hulls, efficient rigs etc. The 12s were influenced by G12s and Cherubs, the 14s were influenced by VJs, the 16s were influenced by G12s and VJ-type 14s, and the 18s were influenced by FDs and Sharpies. In all cases, the lumbering old skiffs were killed by the dinghies.

There was actually a lot of venom directed at those who  brought the lightweight dinghy-style designs into the skiff classes. In every case, the skiffies told the lightweights to go away. Now, of course all of this is ancient history, but it shows that the real "skiff breakthrough" actually came from dinghies, and was then pushed onto a rather resisting, grumpy and conservative skiff world.

So here we didn't historically think of a light dinghy (ie Cherub) as a skiff-style boat; in fact it's more correct to say that the modern skiff is a Cherub (etc) -style boat, because the Cherub/FD/G12/Sharpie/Z/VJ dinghies really created the lightweight skiff - not the other way around.

The Kiwi R Class is called a skiff these days, but it was called a dinghy when it was the most advanced dinghy in the worlds (ie 35kg hulls, two crew both trapping off racks, fully-battened high-aspect rig, all by 1974....).

Anyway, sorry for blabbing on, but this thread has really reminded me of something that I must highlight in a little project I'm working on. Thanks all .

Chris 249, don't stop, its interesting .  However I can't help feel the history is not that important. 

For me its what people mean when they use the term skiff.  And here in the UK I think they mean assymmetric, high powered, trapeze (or wings or both), upwind planner that gets many of its features from recent 18 foot skiffs.  Its not important that they have all the features of a 18 footer but anything it shares in common is likely to increase probablility of being called a skiff.  So I guess I should also include self tacking jib, open type foredeck, fully battened sails, self draining, dagger board and apparent wind ability. Now I know some boats have some of these features, take a 5o5, this certainly will plane upwind, use the apparent wind and is high powered but it takes its design themes not from current 18 footers but from more conventional dinghies and so is unlikely to be called a skiff.

One of the characteristics of skiffs seems to be they are optimised for sailing in stronger winds and as a consequence are relatively poor when it gets light.  Would we all agree that a B14 is a skiff, if so it exemplifies this last characteristic quite well?  It has a huge sail area and yet goes very badly in light winds - a 5 oh would thrash it in 5knots of wind but it would thrash a 5 oh in 15.

I guess you (Chris) would not consider either a skiff, but I think that many in the UK would agree with me - a B14 is and a 5o5 isn't.  Whatever you think it has been interesting to learn so much about the development of boats.

I guess with the Europeans not growing up with skiffs (as us Aussies know them) They have a different view of what a skiff is.

For me, a skiff is not a design but a boat (when it comes to sail powered skiffs)

As Chris pointed out, a die hard Skiffie would be insulted if you called a B14, 29er, 49er ect a skiff........  In OZ (home of the skiff) anyway

Just my opinion

Having thought about what constitutes a skiff it is more a type of boat rather than a concrete definition.

The following criteria comes to mind

1. Freedom of design - the less rules the better

2. Freedom of rigs

3. Use of the latest technology - carbon etc

4. A challenge to sail

5. Significant speed advantage of similar length boats.

So some boats may fit the definition when they are built but after a few years fall behind.

That could be a keelboat. Open 60? Mini-Transat?

..........even some cats, ORMA 60 trimarans?

It seems as though we are struggling to define "skiff" in the UK simply because the word has been over-used to describe any modern lighweight, low freeboard planing dinghy. The manufacturers have been quick to encourage this because "skiff" has become a buzz word for something modern and sexy, the lastest "must have".

Aussie skiffs are something a lot more specific. In Australia the term excludes all kinds of modern machinery that we would loosely term as a skiff.

I guess Tornado_ALIVE has hit it on the head.