hi  After 30 years of sailing laser 1 and other boats, Having changed to the correct straight leg hiking style, IV had to give it up. old age or does hiking kill you knees. my doctor said.your just past your sell by date.and sent me for tests. He is a great Doctor, there when you need him most. So any sports Doctors out there. Iv sold all my lasers now and knees ok at moment?. Just missed chelmarch open force 6--8 wind and warm ,just my wind too.. I find the RS600 ok too sail, But know if I stop sailing the laser1 for long its a hard way back later.

i used to hike and drop hike and both as a helm and crew and cant imagen going back to it now.  helming from the wire is so much nicer

 Anyone out there use a hiking bench? (or a camel saddle stool and a heavy sofa) thought maybe a good way to mantain leg strength during the winter months. Use the bench nightly for the duration of the weather forecast, if it's that weather girl Caddy it shouldn't be too difficult. 

 I used to play a lot of squash, traditionaly thought to be bad for leg joints. When I stopped for a couple of years my knees played up. When I resumed my knees got better and are still OK. Exercise gives good muscle support I guess unless the joints are completely wrecked.  My knowledge on anatomy is limited but I would have thought dragging the boat up and down the beach does more harm than straight legging. 

GK.LaserII

I play squash 10 years ago, I played my son thursday first time ever, no pain at all, knees great, not so old then I thought . Next day had to get help getting out of bed! Knees ok, just legs. Went up Snowdon last week no probs.

I used to play a lot of Squash, race a windsurfer and then a Laser.  After hard racing the Laser on a Sunday my knees hurt a lot on Monday morning.  In fact flexing them made a sound like a ratchet.

I switched to a 400 (just as bad), then a 800 but couldn't manage that in a 6 so I now have a 4000.  Fantastic - knees not too bad now and a lot of fun sailing it.  I'd never go back to racing a Laser.  As I get older I can see that I'll have to go to a twin trapeze - I suggest all those with bad knees do the same.

I loved racing the Laser in a competative fleet.  After a long beat in strong winds my heart rate used to be something astronomical.  So much so that I used to ease off for a few lengths, take a couple of really deep breaths and consider what I was going to do on the next leg.  I was often surprised to find myself going past my peers as they staggered round the windward mark so exhausted they couldn't make a decent decision.

 Can someone with good medical knowledge explain how straight leg hiking  damages  knees??  

i have had cartelidge removed from my left knee, this was due to a combination of sailing and basketball, it caused a bicuspid tear and was making my knee lock in to place.  best thing to do is make sure that what ever exercise you do, you do it properly!  im only 25 by the way!

Cheap to race ????  When i was racing lasers i used to have to buy new booms , mast sections sails all the time mainly because the stuff laser provide is just sh*te!  I agree with the rest of the points but not cheap to race.

Cheap to race?

First Laser, bought new, sailed for 2 years, sold for more than I paid for it.

2nd Laser, bought new, sailed for 6 years, sold for more than I paid for it.

3rd Laser, bought for £325 6 years ago, still winning races.

I rest my case!

There are several reasons that sailing is bad for knees. We put unatural forces throuh them as we hike, they are designed to take compressive forces through them, not tensile strain. Straight leg hiking is better because with the knee straight you have recruited the maximum number of structures in the knee to transfer the strain through. Most people get very tired when begining to straight leg hike, as they rely too much on muscle strength rather than relaxing, and allowing the ligaments, and joint capsule to take the strain.

The next problem comes in marginal conditions, sitting up with straight legs is quite an unnatural position, and puts stretch on the sciatic nerve, here some knee bend may be much more comfortable for those of us who are not professional athletes, but expect a little more knee discomfort if you are working hard.

You may also have heard about double bottomed boats giving sailors knee problems. This is due to the extra knee bend required to cross the boat. The Menisci (footballers Cartilage) are more vulnerable in deep flexion, especially if there has been previous knee damage this is  another place where single handers can get you if you tend to kneel in the boat downwind. Trapezing in marginal conditions can also do this.

So if you do have knee probs, learn to adjust your hiking to the conditions. Try to sail an erganomic boat, preferably with a crew, so you dont have to do too much crouching in the middle. Trapezing is ok, as long as you have a high boom, and are not doing too much marginal wind sailing.

Hope this finishes this thread.

Andy

Some great posts,there are a lot of sailers that are now playing golf and not looking at this thread,they may have seen a (sports doctors)and have some answers, If i had seen this thread 20 year ago, I might still be sailing in my laser in spain for the masters,My knees are not that bad now, I love sport and have had a slight insight how its like with poor knees, soon sold my laser as RS600 is still good fun.I will always read the replies,Its a good thread to keep going for some.Thank you for posting

Just reading the rooster tips about upwind kenetics, combine the tensile forces with torsional ones and I reckon that will b**ger your knees up.

You must be a very good salesman, i could quote hundreds of old threads about people complaining bout laser prices, the boats are expensive new and you say that you sell it for more then you paid for it!!!! I Wouldnt call anyone a liar but i fing it very hard to swallow, i must admit i bought laser 146663 in 92 i think nearly new in the 3 years or so i had it i had 5 sails 2 ses of mast sections countless mainsheets etc etc. now i'm not questioning the quality of the boat but the sails etc are rubbish an a rip off!  I also know that l;aser do some pretty stonking boat show offers etc. but the boats are still expensive, what i want to know is how you got more mnoney for a used boat to a new one ?

Secondly it must have been a very good 18 year old hull and nearly new sail and rig to beat Steve C.  As we all know a well used laser the cockpit floor wears out, mast foot leaks deck seperates from hull ! 

But i have to be honest i loved my laser, i loved every fault and floor with it and it taught me allot very quickly

Olly Love, I'm going to hire you as a coach. I need to know what I'm doing wrong that i can't cross the start line at 15kts in my 49er.

Unless you mean starting downwind!

i think i was a bit over estimating.

but compaired to a laser doing about 4-6 knots up wind

and a 49er doing around 10+

Just a point about rotational forces in the knee, the knee is designed to cope with rotational forces. The force that we put through our knees while twisting and running/ jumping can be over ten times body weight. We dont get near that while hiking a dinghy. The forces are less, but are applied over a longer time so there may be an argument about viscoelasticity, having said that, I never heard of anyone doing their anterior cruciate while hiking, unlike football or skiing. The same can be said for the lateral forces. I must admit that the lateral forces going through my knees when I hike are pretty low, although I dont sail in waves very often.

The movement from tensile, to compressive forces in deep flexion is a much more likely aetiology in the dinghy sailor. Deep flexion is a risk factor for meniscal damage. Hence my earlier comments. Exercise per se is not a predictor of knee degeneration e.g marathon runners are less likely to have problems compared to other athletes.

Hence the aetiology of sailor's knee can't be compared to that of a footballer, unless you kick the boat after a bad tack. I am not even positive that the incidence of knee problems in sailors is greater than the population average. Although would be very interesting to find out.

discuss....

Andy

40 years old  sailed since I was 4 (hiked most of the time) and knees are fine ... but I have done loads of other sport.

That said I think the trapeze is far the better option as I age ...

Been sailing most weekends and some, for 40 years, - Ents, Fireballs, OK, Ents again, Flying 15s, Miracle, (with the kids),Lasers, 600, 700, MPS and now Finn and loving it! The knees can still survive windy Nationals and 2 or 3 day meetings without problem. I must be doing something right!

GBR 11

Sailed all my life, fanatical cyclist (in my yoof), swimmer, walker, 47 yrs old: knees totally 

fd, and I have never actually injured them! I pesonally think it was windsurfing did the most damage, but there was an article in Y+Y about hiking that said "if you don't do this exercise, you'll get this problem from hiking", and I had every problem they mentioned. To my mind, hiking is clearly damaging if you don't take the advice about cross training and other exercise, (but that wasn't about in the '70's when I was young). Hopefully there's no reason to suffer now!

And the exercise was?

im nearly 16, been sailing for ages but only really sailed regularly from 13-14 ive done two years in a feva and about 5 months in a laser and last weekend i went out on a laser 3000 and this week my knees have been making funny noises and twinging randomly when ive been walking around.

conclusion, i havent been hiking long enough for my knees to hurt for more than a few minutes after the race and then its only tired muscles but whatever it was on that bloody 3000 has buggered my knees.

Were you helming or crewing, cos if you were crewing shouldn't the trapeze be a welcome break for your knees, mind you my knees get sore from a marginal day when i am constantly in and out on the trapeze.

It does kill your knees - I am in the "adjustment" phase of my new toestraps still .. And last weekend they were slightly too loose, and right on the point where I was past my battens in my hikers, but not far enough to bend my legs and reduce the strain on my legs and bring the battens back in contact with the boat.

They have been clicking for the last few days!

Oh well, Slightly looser this weekend, see if that makes any difference.

Dont you mean slightly tighter

it wasnt marginal but my knees seem to have recoverd now after a bit of cycling. back in the laser this weekend but i dont find a problem with hiking.

Good grief!  I bet Craig's happy with that!!!

 There were various exercises: I think for ex it gave an exercise to stop your feet turning out (duck feet), and another to stop back problems etc. Basically the premise of the article was that hiking develops some muscles, and you have to do other exercises to develop the other related muscles or you get problems such as turned out feet, which then lead to bad knees. I don't keep back issues, so I can't refer back to the article, sorry.

Hannah, your feet are turned out because the top of your thigh bones are pointed slightly backwards compared to the average, leading to turned out feet. This is a variant of normal, and common in girls, especially ballet dancers. Dont worry about it. Just use the same techniqhes described, keep your knee caps pointing up when you hike.

Andy Mck

Having sold my laser and only sailing none hiking boats my knees are fine now, back to normal with no pain at all. Most of my mates over the year have given up sailing lasers and said it was knee pain or knee problems. I tried to sail with straight legs and got very fit. I now fly past the lasers but they have got a good fleet and close racing.