Here's a horrible situation.  Blowing old boots and the fast handicap fleet is catching a bunch of Wayfarers at a leeward mark.  All the boats were coming into the mark on starboard and required to gybe to port to round.  The Wayfarers were on a dead run and we come blasting on port in the 4000 with the crew on the wire.  We are overtaking boat so all we can do is bear away and come in alongside until we get the inside overlap at 2 boat lengths.

Now have you tried sailing a skiff type boat dead downwind in a blow (and trying to drop the kite), yes, you guessed we wobbled horribly, and capsized.  There was such a row of Wayfarers and we were overtaking boat so no rights and no way through.  I din't think Wayfarer sailors realise that boats like the 4000 are barely in control (not in my hands anyway) and they also don't realise that to run is not an option.

Your problem I am afraid, go around the outside.  I/we get this issue all the time in cats(just don't go dead down wind but we wont gop for a swim), you just have to live with it. 

Leave room and go around the out side.  Safer, gives moor room for you to do your stuff.  If the Wayfarers are close to gether they will probably muck each other up anyway and you just sail around them into free air (and dont getr messed up in their silly luffing batches etc at the mark)

This raises lots of questions.

The speed you are travelling at in the L4000 will you not be dropping the kite well before 2 boat lengths to the mark?

2 boat lengths of a L4000  flying a kite must be measured in seconds - so if you come in flying a kite at full speed shouting for the Wayfarer to keep clear you do not give them any chance to do so. Then you are in the wrong for not giving them the opportunity to keep clear - is this not the case.

If you sail a Skiff type boat you need to plan well in advance and anticipate such situations. Dare I say it but you may need to sail round the outside, sail high and leave yourself enough space to bear away or to gybe and drop.

This means that the skiffs have the advantage of speed and the slower boats have the rights which are there to protect them.

Finally perhaps the Wayfarers did know that you can't run and are barely in control and they also know their rights under the rules and used them to their advantage. Mind you it takes a brave sailor to stick to their guns with an almost out of control 4000 looming down on them.

Sounds like you should be sailing on the sea with other L4000's.

Our club has about 5 - why not check us out at

http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/ - http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/

You say that you are overtaking boat and so have no rights.

This isnt quite the case, as the leeward boat you can still sail your proper course, which i assume is an asymetric angle. This is unfortunate for the Wayfarer who will probably accuse you of "luffing" him, but he must keep clear as long as you give him room to do so. 

This only applies once you are overlapped, before this point you are clear astern and so have to keep clear.

There are two issues, one is establishing the overlap in a way that gives the Wayfarers an opportunity to keep clear, and the second is making sure that they know that they have an obligation to stay clear.

A second concern is that when "its blowing old boots" (and that's a situation not often seen here in SoCal), Rule 18 may apply further than 2 lengths from the mark, because the rule includes a "possible to give room" exception, that does not give the overtaking boats room, when it is not possible for the outside boats to make room.

The remedy is to start hailing early, and be prepared to slow down or take avoiding action early on.

I agree with Phil: avoiding boat on boat excitement is the only answer: clean wind & no tedious protests.

There's nothing like the enormous hole in the wind to leeward of an RS400 on a reach for ruining your day in a handicap fleet! I seem to remember a never ending stream of them at the Grafham Grand Prix last year before my legs froze solid to the knees and we had to retire .

I think I'm right in saying that if I have right of way the Wayfarer would have to sail my proper course.  Also an assymetric like a 4000 cannot sail on a run, yes it is very slow but it is also terribly unstable and has to be avoided at all costs.

I'm sure the comment about avoiding boat on boat conflicts in a handicap fleet is very good advice but this was an open handicap event with probably 60 odd boats so rather difficult to avoid, especially as the slow boats went off first.

Yes it will if you have rights.  We've been having this argument for years with mono sailors when they come across cats gybing down wind. 

{quote]

I think that in this case "proper course" would be the one sailed by the wayfarer to the leeward mark. You can also sail this course (shortest distance) The fact that it is slower for the asym to do this is irrelevant! You should go round the outside, get clear air and a neater rounding.[/quote]

no no no.....

Proper course is defined as the quickest way to the next mark.  thus if the boat sailing hot angles has rights, then the (usually) windward boat has to keep clear.

Proper course is defined as the quickest way to the next mark.  thus if the boat sailing hot angles has rights, then the (usually) windward boat has to keep clear.

don't forget that the asy is overtaking boat! unless they have established the overlap from more than 2 boat lengths to leeward, then they cannot luff the wayfarer on a dead run. Windward boat in this case can simply sail onward without bearing away any further, and the asym has to lump it.

of course, it the wayfarer was a bit miffed by the appearence of the asym, he could gybe onto stbd with no change of course and remove the discussion!

I'm not sure what you mean here Phil?

Once the overlap has been established the Wayfarer (if to windward assuming we're not about to round a mark) can be luffed up to (but not beyond) the proper course for the 4000 providing the wayfarer is given the opportunity to keep clear and doesn't need to anticipate the overlap being established from behind.  If the overlap is established from below or by gybing then the 4000 can luff as he pleases as long as he gives the Wayfarer the opportunity to keep clear (although why he'd want to except in team racing I'm not at all sure).  Just because a rule exists doesn't mean you have to use it The wayfarer wants the 4000 past and out the way as quickly as possible - If it was me and I had room (and spotted the situation in time) I would go high or low early so the 4000 had a clear lane and caused me minimal interference.  Once the overlap is established the Wayfarer can no longer sail his/her best course until overtaken!

Exactly what I was trying to say Garry.  It is a mis-conception that the overtaking boat no longer has rights to sail her proper course.  Case 42 (but this is from memory, so is porobably wrong) covers this one.....

Very good and thank you all for giving it such thought.  But I suspect very few Wayfarer (and I don't want to pick on Wayfarers particularly so let's say boats with stability) understand the problems of sailing a 4000 (or similar).  I'll explain.

Once upon a time boats were designed with static stability,  ie if you held them by their forestay and head-to-wind they stayed upright.  Boats often had sails of a size that they were only over-powered in a 4 or 5.  I'm not knocking these boats they have hull shapes which go well in light winds and the lighter ones can plane.  It is possible however to go faster if you are prepared to have a hull which falls over and sails that produce so much power that they are fully powered up in a 3.  It means that even in a 3 you are sailing with all the constaints of the older designs in a 5.  Due to clever rigs and new materials these boats can still be sailed in 5, but you can imagine they are difficult and you aren't going to muscle it into submission and you certainly can't just drop everything and expect it to round up and stop with the hull under the mast - like the older designs.

I don't suppose what I have said really conveys the demands these boats put on their crews, but what I do know is that unless you have sailed one in a race in a 5 you probably can't realise the pressures of the above situation can put you under.  All I can say is, "Please don't hesitate to keep well clear of a Laser 4000 or similar, if you possibly can?  Please don't argue the crew are already working overtime".  Why do I do it?  I love it.