Hi Folks

I'm interested in all your thoughts as to whether to sell my L4K and get a faster boat. Background info:-

I've owned and raced an Ent, Merlins, lasers, RS600, RS400, RS200, L4K. and raced RS800 and recently inter 20's. I sail with my partner who has some sailing crewing experience mostly in our L4K which we have had for 14 months now. We mostly coastal windsurf on boards ranging from formula to bump and jump wave kit down in Plymouth. I weigh about 85kg and partner 75kg ish.

However i'm getting a little 'dare i say it' bored with the speed of the L4K and tired of the weight of the whole boat. We bought the boat as an introduction to the dinghy sailing scene for both of us. We havn't done any racing in it as there appears to be very little we can slot into in Plymouth, and also we rarely have time in the summer evening due to work commitments and weekends seem also to be taken up with windsurfing when it's windy. However given the right incentive we may dip into racing again. We only really want to sail the boat when it's below 10knts when the other kit's not working that well. The L4k only seems to be exciting when the winds 15+kts. Our teenage children seem to enjoy the boat but aren't really commited to it and don't really pester us to go out in it. They enjoy trapezing and the thrill factor - best when go out on Inter 20 - which is a little scary at times, but i've got a feeling that boat which is owned by father in law may be sold next year.

Unfortunately, i've recently had a meniscus tear in my knee which required arthroscopy and was cut out, so i'm a little worried about my future in sailing. Legs a little stiff at the mo, but intend to build fitness and mobility back up over winter by rowing and cycling.

So my thoughts are -

Move to a B14 - cheap, v good value for money, thrilling ride, new experience, but maybe requires higher crew skill factor with no chute. How much pressure on the knees would it be vs L4K and RS800? Is it fun and easy to sail with novice teenagers below 10knts?

Move to a RS 800, more expensive, twin wire,thrilling ride but maybe less control for helm to enable to teach partner / teenagers. Don't really want to always crash and burn. Is there more pressure on your knee joint than sitting out- thinking about marginal trapezing weather here?

Don't really want to move to cat sailing as i don't like pulling all the weight up and down the slipway - the pulling and twisting kills my knees - and i like the feel of a lightweight hull dancing across the water, not driving a tank.

So is it a good time to wave goodbye to the L4K or keep it for another year?

I've done a lot of windsurfing as well and I think one of the main things dinghy / yacht sailing have over windsurfing is the racing aspect.  To be honest you're unlikely to find many boats providing blistering speed under 10knots - to get a thrill you want to get racing.

Depending on your knee injury hiking might not be ideal, but I don't know whether trapezing would be better either.  A sport moat like a SB3 could provide the thrill and has a good race fleet but are relatively expensive.

I guess the other option you haven't listed is a cherub - light, fast, 2 person but again might be tough on the knees, although I think you'd spend most of you time standing.

im also down in plymouth sailng a fireball from mountbatten. id be tempted by a RS800, theres a few down here, and they seem to hold their value around 3500, also not as difficult as they look. Or have you considered a L5000 or a boss, very cheap and much faster than your 4k. With cats, the cost of storage at mountbatten is 300+ per year. compared to our fireball which is about 150 i think

What about an F16, Light and fast - and I know there is currently one available !  (and it's not mine)

My 2 pence on the B14... They are superb value for money and a highly competitive one can be picked up for cheap.  Sub 10 knots they are still quick, as the chute is huge (29 sq/m) and there is plenty for the crew to do.  In sub 15 knots there isn't much to dropping the kite, it looks daunting but isn't.  Only when it blows hard can it be all on for the crew but even then it rarely goes wrong if you have the systems set up correctly. 

Taking out younger ones is possible, the B14 has a huge crew weight range (of about 20 stone to up to around 26).  In the light you would get away with 18-20.  They aren't hard on the knees as you can straight leg hike very easily.  Get some hikers and they are very comfortable to hike on.  The crew does have a bit to do as there is no self tacker, no chute and she's generally rather lively but they make the man - why bother crewing an 800 if all you are doing is pulling lines and hanging off a wire?  In the B14, the crew makes a huge difference to speed and the team work is hugely rewarding.  I reckon there isn't another boat where the crew can make such a difference (bar the 18ft Skiff). 

PM me if you have more questions, I can point you in the direction of the best boats or to arrange a test sail. 

I had the same, had a very unstable knee after the op. and feared for the worst until I got the right physiotherapist who prescribed a whole range of exercises which developed all the muscles around the knee. The hospital physio had only prescribed a limited range (leg lifts lying on my back, mostly) which only developed one muscle group.

Now, 13 years later, I do 10 minutes of knee exercises (including the undamaged knee to protect that against injury) once a week and the knees feel bomb-proof (touch wood!)

I had the same opp 2 years ago after 17 years of dislocations before my knee gave up completely! I wouldn't worry too much,my knee is the best it's ever been and "almost" never gives me any trouble. I always wear a knee brace when sailing though and I have only ever trapezed(4000's 5000's and 49ers).

I sailed 4k's when I first started out in sailing and it's a great boat, but I'm not sure what boats are good under 10 knots, the 49er is "fully" powered up in 8 knots,but not sure how you'd feel about them.The 5000 is a great boat BUT really heavy! Can't say about B14's because I've never sailed them but they do look good, again I'd say you'd soon get bored if your only sailing them under 10knots.

 ummm 49er?

not going very quick if the crew lets the main go   

I sailed the 5000 for 8 years and I reckon the 49er gives both crew much more to do.

The self tacking jib is sorted by the helm in the 49er,the kite does go into a chute but is a lot bigger than the 5000 (and I thought the bag was easier in some respects!)

 It seems to me that the big problem is that there isnt any decent racing and especially high performance dinghy racing in the Plymouth area. Lots of yachting, lots of clubs but no decent fleets.

If RodB wants to sail a skiff in something like a fleet he will probably have to go to Starcross where there is limited water, lots of sandbanks but also a number of B14s that turnout and sail regularly.

As you say, High performance dinghy racing in the Plymouth area is very restricted. There are enough boats at the clubs to generate the numbers for an assymetric fleet at a club like the Mayflower, however, its very rare to see many High Performance boats out on the water at the same time. We know of the active boats but from the top of my head, I can only think of about 6 different High Performance boats at Mount Batten which have been on the water at the same time as us, which is quite poor considering the Mount Batten dinghy park had a waiting list for spaces. We try and sail on a regular basis, at least once a week during term time, but with coursework piling up, haven't had as much time to recently.From our point of view, we really want to be racing down in Plymouth but if there is no club organising it and boats are just sitting in dinghy parks, it's a bit of an uphill struggle. We can't speak to owners of High Performance boats we've never met, so trying to organise racing is really hard, and as such we're trying to persuade students into certain classes to build a fleet then approach a sailing club to propose giving us a fleet start and a windward/leeward course.

I'd say you've got to get racing.  I also think high performance boats are poor performance boats at 10K and less - its only the racing that makes them interesting.  A 4000 is an easy boat to sail in light to medium winds when you don't have all the other considerations of racing.  In fact I've met many people who claim to have mastered 4000s and 800s when on holiday in Majorca or similar and then make a real pigs ear when racing.

You are never going to find a boat which is exciting to sail in 10K or less and in many ways the high performance boats are optimised for high speed which they are not going to reach at that wind speed.  In fact some high performance boats are dogs in light winds.  Racing is what adds the edge.

However if you are going to go out in 25K or more the 4000 is the boat unless you are an aspiring olympian and funnily enough the 4000 is probably the best of all those mentioned in the sub 10K speed also.

Hi folks

Thanks for all the replies.

It's quite hard to make emotive decisions like which boat you would like to sail when you have to suddenly factor in fitness ability, which up till now,frankly, i've never really thought about. It;s always been about finding time, and money to pursue the sport. Feelin my age i guess.

Slight goin off at a tangent for a mo.

The justification for time/money spent on sailing for me, is dependent upon the racing and social scene which is generated by having an active fleet. Without these, i may as well just buy a fun boat which i take out for a thrash. Which is what i'm kind of doing at the moment. However if sailing folks see me out having fun, you never know they may want to come out and play too. This philosophy seems to work for windsurfing.

So the secret to sailing regeneration in Plymouth maybe is, at first to buy cheap, rewarding to sail, fast. fun boats all sailing at on location together. However we do need some sort of organisation so potential sailers can have some direction to make these sort of decisions. Otherwise we will all just go off and do our own thing in our own time. It's a great shame. So many great boats to sail and so little time. Maybe need a new thread to discuss on thoughts how to regenerate sailing and keep it going in 2007? The days of traditionally run sailing clubs are dead and gone for us

You like 'the thrill of trapezing' and have a knee problem. This must rule out the B14.

If you want fleet racing I'd got the 800. It a great boat and not too hard to sail, anyone coming from a 4k will be fine. It planes pretty early (esp upwind) and you can always just sail it single wired if there isn't too much wind. Most dinghies need 8knts to be fun (imo), getting a boat that will be as fun as windsurfing in < 10knts will be challanging on a budget.

I think very few Northern hemisphere B14s have the crew play the mainsheet (I know of plenty who don't, am not aware of any who do).

The B14 isn't hard on the knees for the helmsman, contrary ti what one might think.

Mie