I have recently purchased a Projection 762.

I am appealing to any current owners to get in touch by PM.

I am trying to ascertain if a class network/association exists.....and if not try to establish a virtual association to act as mutal support network. We might end up  by restablishing a group who can organise a class regatta.......

I would also like to hear from any previous owners of Projection 762s as to any successful tips and techniques they might have employed when sailing them. (rig settings and tensions etc.)

Looking fwd to hearing from Projectionists past and present.

Good to hear from you Brys and I am sure you will enjoy your 762.

I am Projection owner based in Falmouth Bay where there are 3 of us, with others showing interest.  First season in my boat and considerable improvement needed, but they are a fun boat with great downwind performance - remember to sit well aft.

I don't know of any Class Association, but would be interested in joining one and attending class regatta - if we got 6+ boats together we might be able to arrange a Class in Falmouth Week 2007.

Look forward to hearing from you and where do you sail?    

I bought one a few weeks ago after a long search ,sailing out of Royal Northumberland YC, at present doing Tyne bridge winter series , seems to sail well , lots of potential once we learn more ,

cheers , Doug . K7632 R

Projection 762

Yes, we definately need a simple web site based class association, for information sharing, & possibly an event.

I sail projection 7623  Pink Gin in falmouth and have done for 2 years. Also in falmouth are 7620 and7621,  Big Purple  &  Miss Piggy. Garth who sails big purple has already replied to your post. All are regularly raced in IRC, They are competative in IRC, being overall top boat in Royal Cornwall Y.C. points series this year & 2nd & 3rd in Falmouth week,as well as much more fun than most IRC boats.

Do you have the expertise & time to do a simple web page? I imagine most people thinking of getting a projection 762 google the name,  so if we got  "projection762association.co.uk" or similair most people would find it. I think any volunteer should step foward! Currently google gets to goacher sails, who make good projection sails, the builder, and the old owners site for "Big Purple" before Garth bought her.I do think we should try to improve this and have a class presence.

Hello Guys

I've just bought a proj 762 myself! It's GBR 7633R (formerly "Purple Projection"), built in 1998. Just had the chainplates changed on it and will be putting her in the water to race over christmas - really can't wait.

Will be asking for loads of advice soon I'm sure!

cheers

Tim

Hi Holly

I'd see no harm in the boat being one design though it wouldn't make much difference to me personally as I sail my boat under IRC with no real opportunity to race against other projections.

Hi Holly,

I understand that there have been thirty or so Projections built over the years.

Most have been similarly fitted out but I don't think the designer or the origional owners ever really considered that they should adopt strict one design rules for the boat. It seems to me that one of the attractions of the class in the early days was that owners could experiment  under CHS and latterly IRC, and play with their ratings a fairly inexpensive way.  There are at least two keel forms to my certain knowledge. At least three lengths of Spi pole, assymetric as well as the more common symetric kites, a variety of sail cloths for the very variable "white" sail wardrobe.and that is before you look into the hull fit outs, forward bunks/bouyancy compartments, or open hull fwd of the mast etc, etc... Deck hardware "improvements" over the years....

I think that to try now to steer a great fleet of super boats into a one design straight jacket is like closing the stable door........There are after all so many Manufacturer lead One Design boats available, if pure OD racing is what you crave.

There is however every good reason why we as a group of owners of 762's should try to get together on the water for a regatta.

I guess we have all faith in the IRC system.  We should not be afraid therefore of meeting up and racing under the handicaps we use against other types of boat.

I have to confess that I have not yet sailed my boat. Having recently purchased it. However I intend to race it under IRC on the Essex coast at West Mersea in 2007 and hope to meet up with at least two if not three other Projections over the course of the season in local Sail East regattas. Cannot wait!

If you mailto:mark@yachtsandyachting.com - email me a class logo I'll setup a page in the http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/ - Classes Section  of YachtsandYachting.com

Keep me posted with any class news and we'll keep the page updated. Send reports from your class racing to mailto:club@yachtsandyachting.com - club@yachtsandyachting.com .

I think you are absolutely correct Stefan.  The cost benefit analysis to be done by each owner would kill the idea quite quickly......The rating spread is fairly tight in any case......those who choose to go for the big kites and overlength poles are penalised with a rating increase.

Perhaps other owners of Projections with more experience of racing one another on IRC with slight rating and boat differnces would comment about how satisfactory they feel the IRC rating differences really are in practice....??????  Is it worth carrying the bigger kites and poles even though penalised by IRC? 

Considered comments that take account of results over a whole season rather than just one race would be most helpful.......

2000   0.973

2002   0.972

2003  0.971

From the figures on the Certs no measurements changed in that period.

Significant is the SPA @ 40.55 and SPL @ 3.08

How big is yours?

So , for us new guys to 762's , do we have anyone with interesting info to help us ? Rig settings ?  I have 45 , 40 and 35 M kites , when would I use the 35 ? I have 2 poles ,one 3.1 and one 3.2 m , I'm using and rated for the 3.2 . Is there anything I should know abouthow to handle big waves , up and down wind ? Am planning to change chain plates after winter series , I'm told they can be a prob .

Will the boat break if She is pushed too hard ?

Am sailing from Royal Northumberland YC , we have a mixed SB fleet , lots of Corks , melges ,  Ben 25 , Sigma 8's etc ..

Aiming to be at Cowes week 07,       Doug.

this is off a rowen composites advert from yachts and yachting.

Hi all

I've now made a http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=42&c=272 - Projection 762 class page on YachtsandYachting.com - all I need is event reports, a description, calendar dates, links, photos etc. and it will be more use than the currently empty page!

Cheers

Mark

Thank you Mark.  I try to chase up some facts and figures plus ask a few snappers to contribute.......there are some nice photos of the boat out there but most are copywrite.......

I used to run a class association website and found that most marine photographers were happy to let you use their photos so long as 1. you asked first and 2. you acknowleged their copyright.

Incidentally almost everything is copyright, whether it explicity says so or not. In UK law you don't need to register for copyright protection in order for it to apply. 

That's the one on the side of my boat!

Hi. I Just found this thread, I own "Zulu", GBR7622, & race from Cardiff. I'm definately up for some place (like this?) where we can swap ideas, but I'm not sure about a full-blown class association.

From what I've seen all the boats rate close enough on IRc that we could race level without being an OD. We did Cork in '04 and there was another 762 called "Radio Star" from Brighton in our class. We had great racing and despite having different sized kites & different ratings as I recall every race corrected out the same as our on-the-water positions. there's no need to worry about a couple of clicks on IRc.

On another matter, our main opposition is J80s, which give us a problem with their 65m2 kites. Has anybody tried a masthead kite on a projection? I reckon it would be fun & IRc-kindly.

Kev.

H Kev,

I will private message you with  my contact details, please look out for it.

Hi Guys!

I purchased Projection 7126 "Nemo" in June and have been racing under IRC this summer on the East Coast. We are based on the Medway and there are currently 3 other Projections that join our keelboat racing. Each boat has different handicaps, 0.971, 0.969, 0.968 and 0.965. Not once this year has the order of position over the water been changed by the handicap. The small difference in the handicap can almost be neglected as one point is roughly 6 seconds an hour.

We have competed this year in 3 of the Sail East regattas on the East Coast and are planning to do them all next year. It would be great to see more Projections there as the sailing and parties are awesome!

We have definately enjoyed having 3 other Projections to sail against this year and it would be great to have a bigger turn out for next year.

Check out http://www.saileast.org - www.saileast.org

Class association sounds a good idea, got loads of photos of the boat. Does anyone want them for the class site?

cheers

Mark 

I am still trying to shake the trees to find as many as possible owners and boats.

I need contact details of any Projection 762 owners that anybody knows of who have not yet appeared in this forum thread.

RadioStar last seen in Brighton

White Lightning last seen on Medway

Miss Piggy last seen Falmouth

Data, Data, data, data, data,  please.......use PM to end details I will respond to any that include thheir Email address.......Thanks

Oh and anews of any pictures that you can grant copywrite for publication on the web (with aknowledgements) would be most useful.........still trying to set up a dedicated site more anon.......

Hi Guys ,

This  poss may be of interest to some . Royal Northumberland YC are holding The Northern SB Champs next spring, 12th & 13th May. We have a mixed fleet here , Melges,Corks,Sigmas ,Ben 25 and my 762 ,we had a good turnout last year,its a real fun Regatta with lots of freebies inc. lift in and out .Hoping to be sponsored by a beer co. like last year.I am told RNYC know how to party .       http://www.rnyc.org.uk/ - http://www.rnyc.org.uk/

It would be great to see another 762 !  Some use Regatta as a warm up for Tarbert. I know we are a long way from anywhere though.

Doug        "Filthy Gorgeous"       K7632R

hi, i am in the process of acquiring a projection from hamble and i will be bringing the boat to ireland for irc racing. hi, as everyone seems to have 40sqm kites we should use those for closer class racing. the original class sized spinnaker was 50sqm which would be looked on quite favourable by irc. i think a rating appeal for the 762 is also in order, from all of us.

I've still got the original kite with my boat (8 years old!) and that's a 50sqm. My others are two 40s and a 30.

Does anybody here use an asy? The 762 which raced (successfully) out of our marina a few years ago went for 2 asys (large & small) and a symmetric - used asys most of the time I gather.

Spent far too much on the boat so far but one is on the shopping list for the future!

HI,

HAVEN SPOKEN TO A SAILMAKER ABOUT THE SPINNAKER HE SAID THAT TO FLY A LARGE ASSY KITE YOU WOULD NEED TO HAVE A POLE LENGTH OF 3.5 METERS. THIS IS THE ORIGINAL LENGTH OF POLE SUPPLIED WITH THE OLDER MODELS WHEN THEY WERE ATTEMPTING TO MAKE THE 762 A ONE DESIGN ( I THINK). I WOULD GUESS THAT RATING A POLE LENGTH SUCH AS THIS WOULD BRING HER RATING TO 0.980 REGION.

[QUOTE=chic] which would seem to indicate that at least 36 were built!...[/QUOTE]

Maybe, maybe not. Some numbers in the range might already have been in use and some sail numbers may never have been used. The highest sail number in a class is not in most cases a reliable indicator of the number of boats built. This subject has been discussed a number of times here.

Re sail numbers ,

I don't suppose the 762 sail numbers started at 7620 ? There are some below this number ?

What size assy kite do we use if we get a 3.5 metre pole then ? anyone got the dimensions ?

Doug GBR7632R

Hi Folks

We had a Projection 762 for a number of years, Wild Willie. We raced in Sail East and Ramsgate Week etc. The main reason we sold her was that we tended to be handicapped to too greater disadvantage when racing larger boats such as X332s etc in Class 2. However, we did enjoy sailing the boat and beat all boats of our size most of the time on the circuit and Medway. Those who have not sailed one and wish to get some great sailing will find the boat well balanced and very responsive if set up correctly and sailed well. Most of our team were B14 sailors.

Have fun and bye for now

Barnsie

I stand corrected over sail numbers, I have to admit that it hadn't occurred to me that some numbers might already have been taken... it would however be interesting to know exactly how many have been built so far.

And thanks George, Hobbes will most likely be kept at Port Edgar... I don't know that I'm brave enough to leave her on a mooring at Dalgety Bay; apart from anything the keel's a bit deep for those huge spring tides!

After a flurry of activity in December (when I wasn't able to post) this topic seems to have gone a bit quiet...

I just wanted to reconfirm my support for the idea of a 762 class association. Have any owners heard from Brys who was the original author of this thread? I'm worried I may have missed the boat...

Chic

I'm still watching with interest , I've had a couple of e's from Brys , the assoc sounds good to me but I'm not so keen on one design ,SBR might well suit me, so far from anywhere.

To have others at hand to share probs and get info from is great .

Doug K7632R

I understand some people's reluctance for one-design in this case; I'm a Laser sailor so initially it made sense - true boat-on-boat racing (well...), stops cash from becoming the vital ingredient, etc etc. However the more I think about it in the case of the 762 there probably aren't enough in existence for one-design to work. The association is vital though. In my experience classes have risen and fallen on the strength and enthusiasm of a class association (as have boat values) and although we're not planning any trips away to race against other 762's this season I look forward to it next year!

Incidentally, Doug, mysteriously there seems to be an assymetric kite in our sail wardrobe...

Hi Guys,

Sorry to be quiet for so long. I am now back in harness after a prolonged recovery from an equestrian accident. Therefore "time is not my own" at present!

When I kicked off the idea of a class association it was very much ment to be a virtual entity. We have generated a lot of discussion on this site and word has obviously got around. I still think that to keep work to a minimum and cost at a zero level we could continue to use the very good facility that Y&Y provide to keep in touch. Several people have used the Private message facility to pass their private email addresses to me and I have reciprocated. I am slowly building an offline database of owners and boats and their opinions viz one dsesign and other issues of intrest.

If things start to get out of hand and we get asked to move along by Y&Y we can easily move to  MySpace site.......

If anyone wishes to access the data (still quite small amounts) I have, and they are an owner/crew of a Projection and have sent their details I will be happy to pass on boat info etc...but in the first instance if you wish to contact each other why not use the PM facility here.

I am NOT in fvaour of going down a One Design route.......the boat can easily race one on one (as per a BOX rule) If we all keep our IRC certs up to date IF we ever get together in any serious numbers (say more than 3) we can see what IRC does for us and if the small rating differences make any odds.....Until that time which I hope will be soon!

I would think that Falmouth would be the best candidate for a meeting of boats and people and would also suggest that to join in a Falmouth week would be the easisest option for all parties.....What do you think?  Bear in mind that three boats are already regularly racing in the area. Falmouth is a very nice August holiday destination for families not involved in the sailing and the road links & boat handling is pretty good. (albeit a fairly long haul from anywhere!).

Happy new year to all Projectionists and Happy sailing in 2007.

Falmouth sounds like a chuckle, especially as there are a few proj's there already. Won't be making it this year but could be one to consider for 2008.

I'd be very keen to know what the East Coast boats will be up to when they have their calendars done. Will be making a big effort to go to those where other projections will be out.

Brys is my old man, hopefully i'll get my hands on the boat for a couple of events like sail east (west mersea and felixstowe) maybe burnham week/ramsgate week, depending on work and crew.

Hopefully we'll get a calender sorted soon

Hallo Brys, I'm sorry to hear of your accident. I hope that you're making a good recovery.

I'll send you another PM because I can't remember whether or not I included my email address.

My only worry about Falmouth as a venue is that it's so far away for us I'm not sure we'd ever get there!  However as I've already mentioned it's unlikely that we're going anywhere beyond the Forth this season.

Those ratings do look pretty decent. Maybe they carry small kites?

I've got an endorsed rating and that was 0.973 for 2006

Pink Gin had official IRC weighing (on RORC load cell) in 2005. Weight 1345 Kg.  Miss Piggy was weighed at the same time, and was a bit heavier.

Reducing jib overlap helped rating,LP reduced from 3.95 to 3.65 probably saved 5 points.This is now approx 140% genoa,the old one was150%. 140% suits the boat well, fine in light airs, and much better near the number 1 to number 3 change. We only sail with 4 people, so this may help with the slight loss of area in very light airs.

Spinaker is 40m. Any smaller is a disaster, the boat came with 35m and was sad downwind. I think 40 is still a bit small up to force 4, and plan to try 46m.

Other IRC data is:-  Hull Factor 10.5   Overhang factor 1.055   Rig factor  1.02

Are these the same for all 762's?  How does hull factor compare with J 80, Corby 25 etc.

Hello Projection 762 owners

I owned a 762 - GBR7636 'Crikey' for a couple of seasons with a bit of success. I thoroughly enjoyed the boat and really only changed to get some accomodation. Having optimised the boat pretty thoroughly and working in the industry I think that I have  a reasonable idea how to optimise speed v IRC rating.

I always felt that the boat was slightly under rigged and therefore used max size mainsail and 150% (+/-) No1.

When we bought the boat it had what was described as a 'class spinnaker' - almost as wide as it was high and it was pretty hopeless. In conjuction with Parker and Kay (Quantum) we developed a smaller but more efficient symetric spinnaker and an assymetric of the same size flown off the pole. These covered all of the otions for round the cans racing and proved to be really quick.

We also learned:-

1. Get the boat weighed - without floorboards, cushions, (use a rechareable 12v fire alarm battery that fits in one hand from RS components).

2. The m shaped chainplates break with disatrous consequences - change or modify them.

3. The Harken  swivel jammers bent - get an engineer to re-inforce them.

4. We had some tiller/tiller head issues that were fixed by a local engineer - I cannot remember the details

5. We fitted a brace to the stanchions at the fwd end of the cockpit as a lardy crew member always used to grab the stanchion and popped it into the deck

Happy to help anyone if I can

Happy sailing.

Nigel

Thanks for that info Nigel . Your info is useful to me only having had my boat a short time .

What sort of engine did you ( or anyone else out there ) use ? I'm currently using a new Honda 2.3  4 stroke which seems fine as we are racing on the river at present , we can get 5.5 knots in a good blow , flatish water , however we will be back on the North sea come springtime and I wonder if it will cope in a big sea , it does seem reasonably powerful however .

I looked at an early boat before I bought mine , the deck seemed to have more flex , all the stanchions had stress marks round them , there were some terrible looking cracks in the area near where the log goes thro hull , I suspect early boats were  a little thin on GRP ? Could be wrong here though , maybe She was just an abused example ?

I'm going to fit new chainplates in the spring , hope the present ones hold up , we seem to be getting so much more wind than normal this winter .

Our new Hyde 45 m kite seems pretty good , may try an assy , need a longer pole though , was your assy around 45m ? J80's have a 65 m.

Thanks ,

Doug  GBR 7632R .

I think that we had a Yamaha Malta 4hp 2 stroke. - Plenty

Have found 2000 cert.

Empty weight 1354kg

P=9.35   E=3.64   J=2.61   FL=9.58   LL=9.08   LP=3.87   SPA=41.5   SPL=3.08 Rating in 2000 0.974

Never raced against a J80 so have no idea of the relative speeds upwind/downwind.

To answer some of the other questions on the forum:-

I believe that hull numbers went up to 37 or 38 (not sure where they started) a few 'tall rigs' went to Swiss Lakes - I guess that the builders on the medway have built a small number.

In big winds at sea the boat will nosedive so keep the weight well back. Upwind in these conditions simply stuff it over the waves and accelerate down the back - should get great speed and height - overtake Sigma 38's etc

Light airs sit someone below - fwd and to leeward sail free and keep the water flow over the keel.

We fitted a vertical Harken block at aft end of genoa track to stop riding turns on main winches.

Mast set up very straight to get max forestay tension from backstay without overbending mast. Ease lower shoud tension when windy to get more mast bend.

It's all starting to jog the ageing memory

Nigel

My brother and i own 'Nemo 7612' and as mentioned earlier we will be racing in the IRC events this year, namely, Felixstowe (27/28 May), Burnham on Crouch (10/11 June), Medway (15/16July), Ramsgate (12/13 August) and Dabchicks at West Mersey (9/10 September).

I think a meeting with a few projections would be a great chance to have some almost one design racing. Where would we all get together? Personally, i do not wish to tow the boat due to lifting costs and hassle, but a reasonable trip by water is ok. If Brys wishes to give us a few times and places which may be possible, everyone can then reply as to whether they could attend. 

Just to give more details on the 762 rating: Nemo is currently rated at 0.969 but before the season she is to be weighed and her sails measured. Similar to most the projections, her spinnaker is measured at 40.55m2.

Talking with a few local designers we have found that the boats perform best on irc with smaller headsails, larger kites with smaller spin poles. We have also discussed the adding of weight infront of the keel to reduce the waterline. (the boat seems to be the 'wrong side' of a certain value of length to displacement, and therefore the added weight will reduce the rating with reference to any loss of performance). We have been racing with a crew of 4/5 lightweight people and found that we have had to sail mainly with the number 3 most of the year. When we purchase new sails they will most likely include a reduced overlap number 1 and a larger kite with broader shoulders.

Simon

Sorry, just another quick point. It would be useful to copy everyones irc certificate in order to assess what changes affect the rating of the projections? everyone has their own irc data and ideas but the best way is to use the certificates and boat on boat racing,

Simon

It's a shame the two small concentrations of Projections are so geographically remote - Cornwall & Kent.  Having spent 10 hours towing one down from the Medway to Falmouth last year, I'm not sure whether I currently have the motivation to repeat the experience just yet.  The obvious halfway point, by sea, would be the Solent, but I guess most of us would opt to trail, so the gains are limited.

For those who haven't tried it, Cornwall is great in August, so perhaps others might follow the lead of Brys who has suggested attending Falmouth Week 07 - I'm sure the local boats can help with the logistics and craning/mooring charges are sensibly priced.  The conditions last year were fantastic see photos @  http://www.photolounge.co.uk - www.photolounge.co.uk [search Falmouthweek 2006]

Not too sure about Simon's suggestion of adding weight in front of the keel.  I can't see how this would significantly reduce the waterline length and I expect you would encounter real challenges handling the boat downwind in a blow.

An extra 100-200kgs by way of a torpedo on the bottom of the keel would be really interesting from a rating perspective and you only need look at the Corby 25 for evidence of the rating formula benefiting higher ballast/stability yachts.  However, boats would need higher winds to plane downwind and the gains of beinf able to carry #1 genoa for slightly longer, combined with overall stiffness upwind might not give sufficient payback.

It would be really interesting to establish whether a Projection @ 1500kgs, with 140% Genoa and 45sqm kite could bring the rating down to  around to 958-960, which I believe would be on a par with a Platu 25 and a bit closer to a Corby 25 (940-945). 

An interesting experiment for an owner who works in the industry?

In reply to an earlier post about engines, we have a 4hp Mercury 2 stroke. Flat out it gives us about 5.5 knots which isn't too impressive - but it only gets us in and out of the marina anyway.

And talking of the weight of the keel, my boat actually has 68kg added as a small bulb. Having not sailed a bulbless projection I don't know how it compares but I plan to leave it as is for 2007 and maybe remove it next winter. Will hopefully catch up with some East Coast projections at PoFR and Dabchicks next year (anybody fancy Burnham Week too?) and see how she goes boat on boat.

Had our first practice in the boat at the weekend which was great fun. Have posted a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVG430LJLRE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVG430LJLRE

We are considering doing the whole of burham week as we already have accommodation available. i'll have a word with the crew.

Our engine is a 4hp suzuki and its fine on flat water but any rough weather stops the boat dead!!! it weighs about 22kg and we are thinking of getting a 8hp tohatsu as they only weigh 26kg (long shaft). we really need it for the delivery trips when the wind is in your face, the tide is falling and you need to get through the Swin Spitway!

By adding 50kg of lead forward of the keel and maybe moving the outboards permanent position to the centre of the boat, the waterline length may change up to 10-15cm. This would have no affect on performance as you just move bodies aft. (You can see this by simply getting somone to stand towards the bow.) Only time you may notice this change would be in large waves and heavy winds. But you could account for this by putting your extra sails under the transom. Its just a thought to get around the IRC handicap problem.

Simon

I used to have a 3.5 Tohatsu vibro-massage machine, which occasionally moved the boat along a bit as well.  As we have to lock in & out not having a reverse was a pain, so I have changed it for a Merc 4hp 2stroke "Sailpower" this is a longshaft engine with a charging coil and also a high-thrust prop optimised for 5knots or so. It is a bit heavy at about 23kg but is brilliant. Drives the boat against wind & tide and very seldom throws the prop out of the water, which the old tohatsu used to do all the time. I would advise one of these, I'd expect an 8hp engine to be very heavy and cumbersome manhandling on & off in any sort of seaway.

where do you sail 'some bloke' and whats the boat name? Are you thinking of competing in SailEast events this year?

As regards the 8hp, i think you are right with it being harder to move around, but its only a couple of kilos heavier. Supposively the fisherman love the 9.8hp as that too is the same weight as the 8hp at only 26kg. We have found last year that we had to sail and motor flat out to catch the tide gates for some of our deliveries which gets very tiresome. White Lightning, another projectiong from our club takes another boat with them which they sometimes use for towing. We have 4 events during the year, all over 60miles away, there and back over a weekend, plus the racing. Start to rack up some serious mileage!

Simon

Boat is Sail No 7622, called Zulu & we're based at Cardiff Bay Yacht Club. I doubt we'll be at Sail East, although Falmouth week either this year or next is a possibility.

Like you, we have some strong tides and gates to cope with. We do the Swansea/Padstow race every year, which for us is Cardiff to Swansea to Padstow to Lundy and home in a long weekend, and we did Dale weekend last summer (Milford Haven), nice trip down, wet, windy and fast back!

With the engines its easy to think a few kilos doesn't make much difference, but it does. Also, there's the matter of bulk as well as weight.

Kev, GBR 7622 Zulu, CBYC

Mmmmmmmmmm ... sounds like my 2.3 Honda might need to be upgraded !

The crew have agreed to do Cowes week , which is a long way from here ( Northumberland ) , just booked a caravan ... wow! they certainly know how to damage your credit card . There will be a good number of SB's going from up here , would be nice if another 762 was there , I've heard there is normally at least one attends.       

      I have a H'cap of 95.98 from our local NERR system , measurements were from another boat in the system , my pole is a little longer and Hyde measure big kite at 45 sq m . Will be getting SBR when the 2007 info is avail.                  P 9309  ,  E 3630  , LL  8973 ,  LP 3914  ,  J 2609  ,  SP 3100  ,  BOW OH 152 , STR OH 552  ,  DISP 1480 ,  MAX DR 1707  ,  I don' understand all these numbers , I'm sure some of you lot will .

At our regattas we get moorings and craneage in with entry cost , the Club owns its own crane , travel hoist , pontoon and fore and aft  moorings . Some say we are a little spoilt , my seasons moorings last year were under £200 , we are now attracting SB's from the midlands to our events ... we are so far away from you lot in the south though !

Doug  GBR 7632R   Filthy Gorgeous

it seems your boat is considered quite heavy at 1480, most ours are around 1350 when weighed. that might be just the different rating (i presume she hasnt been weighed). Also they have your draught at 1.707m, i wonder whether that is an estimate from the design drawings or measured. It seems a bit large. I would be interested what your IRC/IRM rating is if you get a certificate for Cowes Week.

I think a 2.3hp is fine in river, but not good for any waves!

Our mooring fees are quite cheap as well, makes you wonder why people pay a couple of thousand a year for marinas.

Simon

Doug

Pumper Nickel is a Cowes regular in the Sportsboat Fleet.  However, why don't you do some real damage to the Credit Card and follow Cowes with Falmouth Week (12-17 Aug 07) - the extra few miles would be worth it and there are plenty of good campsites nearby.

If Brys & Zulu, both showing some interest were able to attend, that could make 6 of us and provide a real opportunity for a Projection Class.

GBR7620 - The Big Purple

Hi Garth ,

some of the crew have just scraped enough hol to do Cowes , my wife would not be impressed !   Its hol time at work and I need to be back to cover for my staff ....  would love to go to Falmouth ... however ... we are pretty well booked up regatta wise for 2007 , 2008 may be different though .

I've also been warned I will be a wreck after a week at Cowes , my young crew really like to party etc .. sleep will not be an option most of the time . 

Thanks for the offer though , we will meet on the water at some time ,

Doug . 

Garth, unfortunatly Falmouth is the same week as the Fastnet. If current plans work out we'll wave as we go past (it won't be Zulu, though!  )

On the IRc front, my current feeling is that the 762 would benefit from a masthead symmetrical kite (about 60 sqm) and a smaller headsail, probably a light 100% No 1. The rating will go up a bit, and as the recieved wisdom is that in IRC overlapping headsails are 'expensive' and kite area is 'cheap' it should be both more fun and worth it. I'd be very skeptical about adding more weight to the boat anywhere.

Anybody got any thoughts on this?

Kev.

i agree with the larger kite and smaller headsail for irc racing. this is our plan if we get the money to do it!

if this change was not made, ie keep the same sails then i believe added weight is the answer. this is because the amount of speed lost downwind would be very small considering the boat only planes downwind in upwards of force 3-4. windward performance would be improved, more so in waves with the added hull weight.

Simon

irc displacment is based on the number of crew and equipment required on board.

i think most the boats have this 'larger keel'. there is definately a difference with them.

simon

I have read the assorted views regarding ratings and optimisation versus speed. Having won Sail East Class 2, Ramsgate Week and various other Regattas in a 762 I do no believe that the rating is at all uncompetetive.

With any 'sport boat' you will blitz any conventional displacement boat in a breeze, the moment that you start to plane or surf you will be sailing way above the rating. In a breeze the 762 comes alive upwind as well as down - we used to pass Sigma 38's upwind in a breeze - higher and faster.

In the light stuff it is a bit more tricky but given that the 762 is more manoevereable and can tack and accelerate quicker, you can sail to the rating if you sail well and don't make any howlers.

The hardest conditions are the medium breezes - 8 to 15 knots when you have the waterline of a 25' displacement yacht and a rating of a 30-40' yacht.

It is therefore quite simple that to maximise the boats best conditions in light and heavy, weight needs to come out and sail area needs to go on. Forget the rating completely. Re weigh without the cushions, floorboards, steps, battery etc etc. Full size main, 150% genoa, and largeish (but still efficient) spinnakers. The boat will be quicker in the light, surf and plane earlier/faster in the breezy stuff (A masthead kite will pull the rig out). Assymetric should be the size of the runner and will be good in all conditions. Sail 5 up.

You will still have trouble in the medium breezes but the difficult wind range will be smaller.

The rating office is wise to artificially altering the LWP and overhangs - they will take the figures, increase the hull factor and the rating will stay the same (i've tried it).

That is my theory anyway.

So ,  are you offring to set up the class assoc ? That would be nice .

Re optimisation ... I know what you all are getting at, but to me ,putting extra weight onto the boat or using smaller sails may make sailing the boat less exciting at times ...  and I sail for exciting sailing !    I also want to win , its a difficult trade I suppose .

 Would a class protest hold up ? I'm new to this and don't know how 762's have been doing over the last couple of seasons .. not too badly at times I hear ? even if the results show boats in the higher end of the results would  that not make a protest difficult ? Does who or how the boats are sailed come into it ?

I'm using a 45m kite which seems ok , some of the first boats had 50m kites , some say these were too big ? or was it the cut ? I'm still learning but I'm expecting the 45 to perform pretty well over a season ...

The price of carbon masts seems to be slowly dropping ... ? any thoughts anyone ? how would this effect the numbers ? It would make trailing the boat around easier .

Does anyone have any tricks for putting up mast manually  ?,  I've only used the crane to date .

Doug   

 GBR7632R

Nigel ,

Those sound like good words to me ! Thanks for passing them on ,

I'm cosidering trying sailing 6 up at times , I have some pretty lightweight  young ladies as crew and I suspect she will sail better up wind with as much weight on the rail as poss ?

A 45m assy kite then?  what length of pole , am presently using 3.2m ,

Thanks ,

Doug .

Six up ok when it's windy - All those young ladies - how do you concentrate!!!

Our spin area was 41.5 on a 3.08 pole - I guess that somewhere between 40 and 45 for the assy will be fine. The assy is more efficient size for size up to 160 degrees apparrent according testing by Quantum in USA which may partly explain why AC boats sail windward leeward courses with Assymetric kites. We often used to use it with the pole squared back altrhough it was heavier cloth than the runner.

I am taking on the role of onlooker in the current IRC debate... I am a total novice.

However I thought I would post this photo of my boat being sailed by its former owner. I have permission from both him and the photographer to use it on the class webpage. I was on the committee boat that day, the wind was gusting to 35knts and the subject of the photo hit 19knts downwind, and is probably the reason I bought the boat... If everyone is happy with it to represent the class I will forward it.

Superb picture! go for it!

I do not agree that a projection 762 can beat x332s on handicap in modern irc. we have had superb races and still lost on handicap against the 'lesser' x332s.

If the x332s were not there i can see the projections winning class 2 again.

The boat is brilliant on any flat water but as soon as waves are involved you can say goodbye to any placings against the longer boats. Ive heard the boat is great in very heavy winds, but the only time ive experienced really heavy winds racing was at ramsgate this year with a huge swell and wind against tide! The boat to windward required plenty of concentation to keep the bow in the water and every third wave turned it to a submarine! The extra crew member seems to make all the difference when the wind picks up.

downwind it was blowing force 7 with long rolling waves, the crew all behind me (myself helming and 2 crew behind the backstay to widward) apart from the spinaker trimmer, and we hit 14.8knots down the back of a very long wave (the log showing 14.7 and gps showing 14.8). 19knots? my crew and i would all like to think so, (and we'll be trying this year!) but maybe more likely down a speed trench!

Simon

Someone's sail budget is a lot bigger than mine

Kev.

"The Big Purple" in Falmouth Week 06, circa 12knots.  Planning conditions for most of the week with well sailed Projections (Pink Gin & Miss Piggy) finishing 2nd & 3rd in IRC Class 2, behind an old half-tonner - SJ30.

I wonder why the rating that the Projection 762 usually gets (average around .970) is so hard, so much so that they rarely win IRC events?

Is it a "slew" in the rating formula that leans against boats with this sort of formation (was the rule designed so that sportier types such as the Projection were somehow discouraged?) (low freeboard, lightish weight, sensible sail area)

I wonder what aspect of the design if any is the critical one that leads to the heavy rating number?  

I have never seen any Projections regularly featuring in results in a consistent way. Certainly not in the way you see X yachts....I wonder why this was/is?

I also wonder if anyone has ever approached a naval architect to try and "optimise" a Projection for IRC.......

The rating does seem somewhat harsh for a 20yr old design.....

Comments?

I'm no expert but I believe IRC is harsh on light high ballast ratio boats, ie sportsboats as it's more geared to high stability displacement boats. The projection does better on IRC than other more extreme sportsboats but still not as well as a "proper" yacht.

Compare with a Corby 25 for example which is a very succesful IRC boat. Compared to a projection it weighs a good bit more but carries more sail area. It draws more and has a huge bulb on the keel - seem to rate about 0.94 according to a quick google search.

my brother and i noticed the other day that the weight value within the irc rule does not account for the centre of graivity of the yacht. Therefore with a low weight to length value, the projection struggles.

Imagine if the boat was made entirely from carbon fibre and had a bulb lead keel of the same draught. the ratings would not change apart from the 'hull factor' and obviously this would make a huge difference in medium conditions when the projection struggles (i think its the hull factor, cant remember without certificate infront of me).

I think hull factor along with 'rig factor', are fudge factors for the rating rule. So this might be a reason why x-yachts perform well. (dont wish to be a sorry loser but there may be a deal between rorc and x-yachts?) i didnt say that!

It would obviously reduce performance in really light stuff and result in the boat planning a bit later, but could pay significant divends in terms of rating improvement in medium conditions.  As mentioned in an earlier post, a trial certificate @ 1500kgs, with 140% Genoa and 45 sqm kite would be really interesting!

Nice Bulb !

My 762 is  going to do without !    Thankyou .

Don't understand too much about this handicap malarkey , just want to go fast .

That big lump doesn't look like it will help too much to me .

Anyone know if the " building 762's at this time in Poland " rumor has any truth in it ?, I can't find anything on net .

Doug .

Garth, what a lovely bulb.

Before spending money and adding weight to the keel, I'd try sailing the boat with the weight well secured in the same fore and aft position in the cabin over the keel. I fear extra weight would lead to risk of nose dives in my favorite sailing conditions. In 30 knts we have had all the crew at the back of the cockpit,most behind the helmsman. (I think you were there Garth!).I wouldn't have fancied 150-200Kg  extra ( two crewmen) up foward where the keel is. But well worth a try,especially if extra power means you can save on crew weight.

However after 2years in Pink Gin I'd  agree in general with Nigel Theadon of Crickey. Stay light and plane early to reduce the   size of the 8-15 Knt medium wind displacement sailing window. Its more fun too.

Peter Knight

Hi Guys ,

I'm planning to change my chainplates soon , have drawn blanks from local marine sources , we don't have too much choice up here , esp since all our ship yards have closed etc ...

Can anyone put me in touch with a poss supply or drawing , I don't want to do any " development" work with interesting results .

Thanks ,

Doug .

Thanks to all who posted and contacted me re the chain plates , I have plenty of info now , a special thanks must go to Nigel from Rig Magic who telephoned me , he seems a font of knowledge re 762's having sailed one himself for sometime and having more than one incident with rig !    

If you still have the standard chain plates it may be wise to at least inspect them or better still modify or replace .

Doug .