What constitutes a mark rounding?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1594
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 9:02am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: What constitutes a mark rounding?
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Subject: What constitutes a mark rounding?
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 1:04pm
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The picture on the Y&Y home page http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/?s=64&PID=11221 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/?s=64&PID=11221 (it's a BIG Cat rounding a mark whilst flying a hull) started me thinking. If a Cat is coming to a mark and realises they may hit it, so intentionally lifts a hull over it does this still constitute a mark rounding? Not a major advantage I wouldn't have thought unless it's light airs and then it could be risky, but the question needs answering. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Replies:
Posted By: far canal
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 1:42pm
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Why the hell not ? Never trapezed over a mark when rounding ???
same thing.
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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 1:48pm
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same as flying a wing (in say a 18 foot skiff) No problem, just can be risky ! ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 4:01pm
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I agree...if you have wings/multiple hulls it is ok as long as you don't hit the mark. The problem is that if you are that tight on entry to the rounding you are going to be sooooooo wide on the exit. Best bet is to get it right in the first place!..... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: far canal
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 4:01pm
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or lifting a long tiller extension over the top
Sometimes at a gates for eg you can be passing marks and fly hulls , tiller extensions, bodies ,wings etc over a mark, as going in straight line no in tight out wide
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Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 5:29pm
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Except that wings, bodies and tiller extensions are not in contact with the water in the normal sailing position ie 90% of the time. (Not sure that's true in my case but you get my drift). There's a difference between a part of the boat that's not normally in the water going clear over and deliberately lifting a bit over it that is 'normally' in the water. What about a big tri putting one outrigger the wrong side because it's out of the water? ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 6:33pm
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What about if there was a really big trimaran, and really little marks, and the tri sailed right over the top of the mark between the hulls, but didn't actually hit it.
------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 7:45pm
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I think you could argue that using the "string" concept, that the boat had not completed the course. Generally in order to fly the hull over a mark, I would need the plate out too ! And the plate (fully down) draws about 1000mm so I'd not attempt it. Would be possible in something with skegs like a Sprint 15, but as I said above it's a very risky plan. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: far canal
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 9:39am
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is a tris windward float "normally" in the water ?????
not unless the designer made an *rse of it ! |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 10:17am
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AFAIK the RRS does not define what consitutes the "boat" in this context. What about a keelboat that rounds the windward mark heeling so that the upper mast section on the "wrong" side of a vertical line through the mark. That is a perfectly feasible situation. Nobody would say they had not rounded the mark properly. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 12:26pm
If the mast is in the water, they have more to worry about than the course.! My point is that I'd be inclined to protest if someone flew a flew a hull over a mark, but the plate was still in the mater, however if the plate was also out i'd give them a If a keel boat (or any other boat wants to round a mark with the mast over the top of it, I'm not worried. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 12:59pm
Well obviously. Different case to a cat... do try to keep up For the record I don't think this has any practical application, I'm just interested. If you were racing against a Tri and they put a float the 'wrong' side of the mark would anyone happily let them on their way? ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: far canal
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 1:18pm
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not really , cats are meant to sail at optimum with windward hull "Normally " "just " out the water . When doing wild thing offwind sometimes it pays to lift win ward hull pretty high and with no board down either . got a rudder though ! Scoobys scenario - if plate was in the water - but other side of mark (pretty small one ) I would agree , not rounding , but going over ! As for letting anyone do it otherwise , I have no problems , i doubt there is anything in the rules to stop them anyway , adds colour to the occaison and good photo ops .
Better to concentrate on race rather than antics |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 4:25pm
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If you really want a complicated situation imagine a cat that misjudges the run up to the mark and lifts the windward hull to clear the mark, and the rig then hits an outside/leeward boat. The helm of inside dumps the main and the windward hull hits the mark.
Its agreed by both parties that if the cat had approached the mark with both hulls in the water and far enough out not to hit the mark then outside had left enough room for inside to get round the mark. Who does how many circles and why? |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 4:57pm
Whatever ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 23 Aug 12 at 1:47pm
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ISAF Racing Rules Question and Answer Service D 003 Q&A 2009-014Published: 09 January 2009 Question A catamaran on port tack approaches a leeward mark to be left to port. Does a catamaran that "flies" its port (windward) hull over, and possibly to windward of, a leeward mark comply with the requirements of rule 28.1 in relation to that mark rounding? The starboard hull is the only hull in the water (creating a track) and this hull passes the mark correctly. Answer Yes. ------------- |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 23 Aug 12 at 7:11pm
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Blimey, 6 1/2 years for a definitive answer!
Well done for the update Catmandoo.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 23 Aug 12 at 10:14pm
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However.... consider rule 44.2... when a boat takes a penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing. In this particular instance you cannot fly a hull, or any part of the hull, equipment or crew over the mark!
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 9:52am
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Ah but thats a completely different scenario and not in question , however i would take from the above isaf clarification , that once you had satisfied the requirement of " completly returned to the course side of the finish line " you could. THEN finish correctly if your subsequent finishing involved flying a hull over the mark , in fact does it even matter how you return "completely"to the course side of the line , as wether you flew a hull over the line on the way back is immaterial as once "completely" on course side of the line , Just dont spin round ends on one hull So get "completely " course side. Then approach again flying a hull as high as you can , after all its what us cats like best  Raises question , does hitting the ro with your board constitute hitting a mark ,or bad etiquette
------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 10:36am
That's easy: its a gross breach of good manners, hence RRS69 [grin] |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 2:41pm
| I guess this picture deserves a link in this thread. [They didn't quite pull it off]. The narrative at the bottom of the page suggests they took this approach because of spectator boats, which were comprimising their rounding. http://www.yachtracingimageoftheyear.com/award2012/kristin-browne/ - http://www.yachtracingimageoftheyear.com/award2012/kristin-browne/ |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 4:32pm
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Pretty sue that as long as you don't hit the mark (as this boat did), then it is only the bits of the boat that are in the water that need pass "around" the mark- flying hulls, wings , canted over rigs etc can pass through the airspace above and even "inside" the mark all they want as long as contact isn't made. ------------- -_ Al |