Club problems
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Banter
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13989
Printed Date: 10 Aug 25 at 11:55pm
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Topic: Club problems
Posted By: JRB12
Subject: Club problems
Date Posted: 28 Nov 22 at 9:12pm
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Bit of an odd one, but has anyone had any experience of serious issues in club management to the point that the committee has basically become a dictatorship? How did it resolve?
By this I mean that any complaints made generally find the complainant ending up in the firing line. Serious complaints are washed aside and complainants pushed out or live in fear of losing access to facilities if they speak out. A club that is not run for its members but a few who hold sway in the committee and control everything. You would never get an EGM for example because it would be shut down. There would be no way contacting other members. You couldn’t stand up at the AGM and bring up any other business on the night because you have to pre register to ask it! On top of this the governing body has consistently done nothing to help, despite numerous complaints. There answer, hold an EGM. Yet their flag flies over this establishment and endorses their operation. |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Nov 22 at 9:30pm
| Can't they simply be voted out at the next AGM? Of course that presupposes a majority in favour of a new committee and a slate of alternate candidates, the latter being a very difficult thing to find in these days, but if you haven't got the votes and the alternate committee then nothing will change anyway. |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 28 Nov 22 at 9:46pm
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Trying to vote out has been tried many times but they have always rallied more on their side. They have had the means to do it controlling who can contact who.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 7:25am
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Are the complaints 'serious' issues ? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 9:23am
| Yes, there’s been some serious complaints. For example safety issues in relation to racing and training, where an individuals ability to operate safely might be compromised. Evidence of a breach of the rules laid down by the governing body. The governing body’s answer to this issue, hold an EGM! |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 10:42am
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If the constitution of the club has the means to call an EGM, then surely those rules have to be respected. As for the incumbents being able to contact members while others cannot, that is surely an unfair advantage to those who can lobby for (re-)election. I have heard of club’s members in another field altogether resigning en-masse and forming a replacement organisation. They don’t need access to water though… ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 11:34am
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Is the Club a registered charity? If so, then it may be possible for the Charity Commissioners to investigate. Otherwise, you're looking at Judicial Review - that's not a cheap option!
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 11:50am
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Have the committee been in control for a long time?
(This could be a careful what you wish for moment). ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 12:30pm
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I’m sure to call an EGM 25 members are needed. It’s finding 25 willing. Some literally live in fear of rocking the boat. The committee core have been in control forever.
It’s not charity registered as far as I know. Again with communication they hide behind GDPR, so even a section leader might not get contacts to speak to their section. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 4:30pm
| Well, if they can command a majority of voting members at the AGM they could do the same at an EGM. No governing body is going to take action against a group that commands majorities at properly held elections, and in any case what can they do? About all that could be done is to command the club to hold an EGM, and from what you are saying the existing committee would win any votes in that. |
Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 4:45pm
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Its a tough one. I've just walked away from my club (temporarily) because of similar issues with the committee knowingly breaking the law, manipulating race results and ignoring protests plus various other questionable decisions. Ultimately there isn't a lot I can do other than bring up my concerns at the AGM but it would be at the cost of nobody wanting to do the executive roles. My choice is to just walk away or join somewhere else until I have confidence in a new committee for 2024. I'm a bit bitter that there won't be any justice or even making sure the membership are informed of what has gone on. I feel much better having decided to just walk away for a while rather than get stressed over it even though I've been a member there for 20+ years
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 5:33pm
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Intriguing. Is this a club where the racing fleet have allowed other interest groups in, like Social Members or dare I say Yacht Owners? The long game might be to get a few like minded people onto the committee, and over time get rid of those who don't have the sailing interests of the club at heart. Alternatively it might cause you less angst to find a more welcoming club, if it is as bad as you say, presumably others will walk too. You could set up an independent Whatsapp group on the pretext that this is for banter amongst the sailors, but it could grow into a useful tool to get people elected onto your committee, unless they check your phones for subversive apps  ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 6:29pm
Disqualified for sedition  Have a look at this site https://www.sportenglandclubmatters.com/?redirect=0 ------------- Robert |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 6:33pm
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Volunteer run clubs still have a duty of care. https://www.hse.gov.uk/entertainment/leisure/amateur-sports-club.htm ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 9:18pm
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We had half a dozen decent people on our committee recently but they ended up resigning in the face of collusion and obstruction. When the key jobs are held by a certain clique it makes things very hard. Controlling finance, keys, information and data. If one or two people control all of those then it can be very hard for others to do their jobs. Especially so when the controllers surround themselves with loyal support.
Everything is done to control things in the face of challenge and trumped up disciplinaries handed out. There must have been a few dozen disciplinaries in the last 10 years. You literally cannot raise a concern in this club without potentially facing a disciplinary. To give an example the lead investigator in the safety concern I mentioned before ended up being suspended and then they refused to renew membership all in a ploy to boot that member out. What did that person do? Told the governing body that a fair investigation could not be carried out on the face of lies, corruption and collusion amongst those committee members supporting the accused. And the concerns were serious in relation to safe operation of club activities. You can’t have a safe club in that scenario when people do as they please and no one dare raise a concern. It’s a recipe for disaster. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 9:52pm
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Wow, and they said sailing was fun, get away from there, probably every other club in the country is far superior.
------------- Robert |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 11:16pm
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I had been thinking that it probably is the worst sail club in the country.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 29 Nov 22 at 11:26pm
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This has to be a wind up ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 12:06am
| No, not a wind up at all. Sadly even the governing body will do nothing about it. Even with further background evidence to the issue I mention they will not do anything. I question the point of the existence of that body if they cannot regulate the clubs that operate under their name. I have no faith in them at all. |
Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 1:37am
| As others have said, this is supposed to be a hobby/fun/enjoyable etc so my initial take would be to run away and find another club. And yet I've been there in terms of not agreeing with the direction my clubs committee was going in, so ended up spending several years as a committee member/secretary/vice commodore/commodore/trustee as a result. JimC is spot on when he makes the point that a club should be democratic and an AGM and EGM are the ultimate expressions of that. If you're in a minority at both/either of these you should re-think where you are. On the other hand if what you're saying is that your club are ignoring basic constitutional protocols such as holding AGMs I'd suggest talking to the RYA legal section. |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 9:08am
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Lead investigators, disciplinaries? It sounds more like a (bad) place of work than a recreational club.
I wonder how many sailing clubs have actually got working procedures ready in place to deal with such things? If it really is this bad, think I would walk or at least take time out. |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 11:07am
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Just having this conversation on a social media platform is a disciplinary offence in this club. That’s because it’s exposing these people who believe that such a conversation is bringing the club into disrepute. Yet it is they who bring the club into disrepute. They hide behind disciplinaries as a means of control. The comments to the governing body by the lead investigator were “brining the the club into disrepute”. Yet the complainant had a family member under investigation. What’s even worse, a relative of the complainant then led the disciplinary committee! Conflict of interest and corruption could not be more plainly visible!
Yes the club has its AGM but it’s controlled. In one instance when a ballot should of taken place for 2 standing for a role, a show of hands was done. You could see people looking round the room for when they needed to raise their hand. The constitution says in the case of 2 candidates a ballot is required but the chair overruled it. People have left and started other things but as one mentioned it’s access to water. In this particular case the access is either club or commercial access. There’s no public water access. The club was meant to be a watersports club and got a substantial grant for a building (over 500,000). It was meant to be a flagship centre for the area and region, but it’s become dominated by the agenda of clique. People who were founder members and who have a long history with prior clubs feel that they must fight on for justice. This club was an amalgamation of 2 others in a flagship project. Many of one of the clubs never wanted that amalgamation. It’s odd that such a clique would hang on to power in such a way and for what reason? Surely you would eventually be fed up of all the arguing. Which leads some to suspect there is more to it. For example, A few years ago there was a substantial loss in money and the police were involved but nothing came out of that. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 11:41am
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There was some discussion on here a few years ago about a committee member who was alleged to have stolen something like a £150,000, will find it later if I can, is this the same club? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 11:44am
| No, I read that story in the local paper on line. A different club all together |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 12:09pm
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That was at Chew Valley I think ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 12:19pm
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I heard of a club where the incumbent committee had been in charge for some time and there was a consensus among some members that this was to the detriment of the club, but nothing like as bad as here. The committee wanted new blood but only in 1s and 2s so they could be 'taught' how to do things the 'right' way. The only way round it was for a group of members to get together and put themselves forward at the AGM to take over all of the committee roles - but it was made clear to the membership that they had to vote the new committee in en masse and vote out the whole of the existing committee. It involved organisation and people willing to put themselves forward to take on those roles and it ended up as a palace coup.
------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: CYHT
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 1:31pm
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I think I shall answer many of these posts in good time,if I attempted to comment on all now then I’d be here till gone Christmas.At a previous AGM A group for change had collected a huge number of proxy votes for the vacant committee positions. I approached the Commodore on the evening of the AGM and as per Club Rules said we have a the right for the elections to be by proxy,the reply was “I’ve agreed with the President it will be by a show of hands” I objected and said Club rules allow this if requested by the requisite number of members to be by Proxy,the reply was no it’s going to be a show of hands,with a further comment of “ I’m really disappointed in you “ ….guess what it was a show of hands and the incumbent cabal committee remained. ------------- Jim Hacker |
Posted By: CYHT
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 2:19pm
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Please see my comment re AGM.On the question of a democratic club, my private minutes from a Disciplinary Committee I sat on sadly within this club on ‘charges’ against a member for a comment on a private Facebook page.. the chairman of the committee when asked by me as to whether we are a democratic club , the comment back was,”I think you’ll find that those who do the most work have the biggest say”,to which I reiterated “so we are not democratic” ,”that’s how it is” was the reply,if we don’t find xxxx guilty then we will just **** off xxxx and xxxx.” Sadly the wind up comment could not be further from the truth. ------------- Jim Hacker |
Posted By: CYHT
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 2:30pm
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The club in question is supposed to promote ALL aspects of water activity ,Cruisers,Dingy,Racing,Power Boating,Angling,Waterskiing,Diving etc etc. Those in control are all ‘Sailors’ and probably the fairest way to say it without emotional phrases is to say they support and promote all aspects of Sail over everything else.Having an opinion not in line with theirs is a very dangerous one that I and many other former members have found out. ------------- Jim Hacker |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 3:05pm
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The thread title is by CYHT, first post by JRB 12 ??? How's that work???
Following all the clues on posts, the club I think they are talking about is well known and respected, probably won't like this thread! ------------- Robert |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 4:26pm
Can we play warmer colder? ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 4:43pm
| Another club member? If a club is known and respected it does not necessarily mean it is a good club. A facade can exist quite easily and that's exactly what this particular club have. The image they portray reflects little of the mire of corruption that exist under that veil. It probably isn't a club you are thinking of. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 4:54pm
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Is this a beach toy, swimmers attempted coup, big mistake allowing them a vote. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 5:05pm
Totally agree, when you get two new posters start a thread like this it always sets off warnings signals. I haven’t guessed which club it is , so I have no idea about the credence of these allegations, BUT at very least we are getting a very one sided view of the alleged wrong doings with out any evidence at all. Or even any independent views of how this club is run .
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 6:00pm
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Get the impression CYHT and JRB12 may not be sailors, CYHT did not appear to be a fan of sailors on the committee and cannot spell dinghy, just saying ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 6:03pm
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Perhaps it's because after 10-15 years of what members have had to suffer and the way they have been treated with little help from governing bodies or outside agencies that people need to ask questions elsewhere. The point of the question was to see if any others had similar experiences. It's not presenting evidence or asking for judgement from the forum. There's no doubt the club in question would say it's done everything correctly in contrast to what others say. How would you get an independent view on that without an independent investigation? And who could ensure that happened? There are no swimmers involved in this particular one.
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Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 6:08pm
Sailed quite a bit in the past in dinghies and occasionally yachts. But this club is a club for all water users.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 6:53pm
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Deffo non sailors against sailors.
Perhaps you could name your club and the dangerous incidents? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 7:26pm
Not essentially non sailors against sailors. Of directors that resigned 5 were yachtsmen and 3 with powered craft. As mentioned even discussing this on social media would constitute a disciplinary offence, so naming is not currently an option. |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 8:00pm
But unless you have done something silly like JRB being your initials how would anyone connect the allegations with your good self ?
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 8:21pm
Here are the clues,,, One club made from two,,, Grant of over £500,000 for new building,,, Angling, power boating, windsurfing, SUP, sailing etc,,, poster read about Chew Valley fraud in his local paper,,, RYA training centre,,, give it a go  ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 30 Nov 22 at 9:26pm
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Yes, unlikely that identity would be discovered, it’s probably just the years of oppression!
Apologies, I meant I had read an online article of a local paper. Although on checking it was a Welsh national paper. I had already read about Chew Valley. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/boat-club-treasurer-fraud-cheques-22111524.amp |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 01 Dec 22 at 8:02am
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It amaze me why, with so many clubs out there, people feel so wedded to one club in particular that they feel the need to try to change decades of club culture. If you dont like the way the club operates dont be a part of it - leave If you dont like the club culture - leave If you dont feel welcome - leave Its simple. no need to waste your time, you'll never change it on your own. Posting on here for help doesn't really help you because many of us are/have been committee members, commodores, membership secs etc and will know that there is probably another side to this story.
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Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 01 Dec 22 at 8:49am
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As I said previously many have gone and done something else. But they shouldn’t have to.
However there is little choice in the locality. People have been kicked out for no reason, simply for raising concerns against others in this clique. If you cannot raise an issue (especially welfare) and feel safe in doing so, without facing recrimination then You Have a club in a seriously dangerous position. It’s not petty issues. It’s so far gone that that it’s lost sight of reality. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Dec 22 at 9:46am
Title thread now changed to by jrb 12, could almost be April 1st  CYHT aka Jim hacker, yes prime minister, could be something by iGRF.------------- Robert |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 01 Dec 22 at 9:59am
Sorry I don’t know what you mean. I started the thread and no one has changed that. This is not a send up. I came on here to gauge if anywhere else was so bad. |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 01 Dec 22 at 10:30am
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The resignation concern of half the committee was over the drinking culture among a number of the club.
This involved junior training where a complaint was made that training officials had been drinking copiously prior to preparing and potentially delivering a session. Evidence is there too of alcohol misuse in other parts of the club programme. |
Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 01 Dec 22 at 11:17am
that is grounds to involve LA safeguarding / police
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Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 01 Dec 22 at 11:26am
| Absolutely, but the chair whitewashed the investigation. Told the LA no case to answer. The investigator told the governing body of the collusion going on. They got a disciplinary for that and kicked out. Family ties in committee and training team protecting their own. A mass of evidence given to the governing body who have, as I said done nothing. What do you do? Does it need an incident before something’s done? |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 01 Dec 22 at 11:57am
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Sounds tricky, and the problem and solution in these circumstances are not always as they seem. We all have preferred style of management. Some prefer "Strong leadership" (euph) others prefer a more democratic/group style of leadership. Some aren't happy being lead and will only be happy leading..... iconoclasts or like Oedipus, seriously resentful of any authority other than their own. Given the wider stressful environment many folk will be happy to just chill out in an environment that is controlled by others. .......in short, the problems you face are never, ever cut and dry. It sounds like your voting membership are split along similar lines/proportions to the wider population at the moment. |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 01 Dec 22 at 12:21pm
I can only speak for 4 clubs I’ve been a member of and none of them have been run on these lines. Tbh in my thirty -five years of sailing I’ve never even heard of anyone being ‘ disciplined ‘ never mind being thrown out of a sailing club. What are other peoples experiences ?
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Dec 22 at 1:31pm
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Was a member of a yacht club in the eighties where drinking was of an Olympic standard, no women members either, not even in the bar, can remember drinking until 4am from 9am the previous day and being driven home by someone in the same state, this was a regular occurrence. One Saturday afternoon when racing had been cancelled due to a storm, two yachts raced from club to a town down the coast and back, one was knocked flat, both boats crewed by very inebriated crews. No one was ever disciplined there though. Club was run on drink and training adults and children would have been done with drinking trainers. I am not endorsing any of the drinking or men only culture then, it was a different time and I was very young. Edited to add, The club is nothing like that now. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 01 Dec 22 at 5:33pm
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I think many who participated in the dinghy racing drinking culture of the 70s and 80s are still sailing and drinking … or are no longer with us. as 423zero says, not to be condoned in present times. Though pales into insignificance when compared with Rugby extra curricular activities. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 9:20am
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Yes, those were different days. But in some cases it’s
Still happening in sailing. Having seen a number of examples of drinking Heavily the night before, or a pint before a race or even the duty officer with A can in hand you have to wonder where the common sense and responsibility Is. One comment at a championship event after a heavy night of drinking, ‘does anyone Race sober?’ And where is the “long arm” of the governing body when they have this evidence And tell the complainant to ask for an EGM. 
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Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 10:10am
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I really don’t know where your going with this . I don’t see a connection between your original allegations of club misconduct/ coverups/ bullying etc and the fact a competitor in a race is sailing with a hangover or a race officer has a glass of wine between races ( neither of which break any law or regulation. ) . Given this fact and the fact you also refuse to name the club or even go into the slightest detail about the alleged misconduct/conspiracy, I am starting to feel some sympathy for this club and it’s committee. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 10:17am
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Never seen anyone at a sailing club walking about with a can of beer that is shocking. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 11:14am
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This beer was actually out on the water on a yacht doing the OD. 2 of them and proudly in social media pictures of their beers.
The problem with organisations like this is they rely on bullying to silence the voices. Intimidation, recrimination, controlling the committee all serve to make the weak follow, the indifferent shut their eyes, and the protesters get a punishment or walking away. This is why there’s been so many disciplinaries. What started as some minor complaints snowballed into a tighter grip and control by these people in anyway they could. So for example the beer drinker complained about a post in a private FB group that they claimed was about their family members and that it was offensive to them and bullying. But in reality an light hearted poke at the way these people operate. The “defendant” eventually got a year ban from the club after a long disciplinary process where the disciplinary rules weren’t followed properly. Yet you have the same person as a training official drinking against race, training rules. And it gets whitewashed and the some one else gets kicked out for questioning all of this with the governing body. |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 11:56am
I think you will find that drinking is against the rules for those conducting/ participating in training, racing and race officials. It’s all there in the rules. If you think drinking whilst on duty or between races as a race official is okay, then I’m afraid that attitude is just part of the problem. What sort of example does that set? As I’ve outlined the issue was about a training session where the allegation was that the lead individual had been drinking prior to the session. This was whitewashed. On top of that there is evidence of a widespread drinking associated with racing. It would be interesting to see a breath test the morning after. You can’t say if they were fit or not, but why drink to that state? It brings the sport into thorough disrepute. Watersports and drinking don’t go together. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 1:32pm
| Realistically I think you need to find a club that's better aligned with your philosophies. I'm not sure the amount of cultural change required is achievable even in the medium term at any typical amateur club. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 1:35pm
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Jrb 12, you have the patience of a saint to still be there after twenty years, I would have gone years ago. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 3:08pm
Of course I am not saying anyone should be drinking while running training especially if in charge of minors , or be intoxicated while being race or duty officer or while racing and would never remain a member of a club where this behaviour was taking place . But in my thirty- five of sailing I have never seen anyone in this state outside of social events at any sailing club I have ever been a member of or even visited. BUT there is a huge difference between this and having a single drink between races or sailing with a hangover and IF you think there isn’t a difference, I think the problem might be yours and not the clubs . As I said the more you post the more sympathetic I am to the mystery club. But going back to your original point , if you have already raised concerns with the club and the RYA and got nowhere , your best course of action is to find another club. Because you havnt provided any evidence of the allegations of drinking or the whitewash for us to pick over and suggest another course of action .
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Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 4:16pm
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It's not for us to do the investigating, he doesn't need to provide us with anything. The thread started with asking what he can do about his issues with the club and if others have had similar experiences. In my opinion and having done my stint on the committee I have an understanding of the liability vs enjoyment factor: Drinking before being in charge of running any training for children and adults I would say is a definite no. A single pint over some lunch while instructing, would depend on the circumstances and is for the committee to decide. A single pint while doing OOD or RIB duty would also depend on the circumstances. A couple of pints before going sailing is OK. Hosting an open event I would expect OOD/Safety lead/RIB helms to not have a drink. We're allowed to drive on roughly 2 pints why can't we sail? As to what the RYA say about consuming of alcohol is a different story and not something I ever got involved with I also see nothing in the racing rules about drinking while racing or being a race official.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 4:20pm
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I agree with Nicola Jayne, sounds serious enough for official intervention. You state you have been a witness to this behaviour, you are equally responsible for doing nothing. The governing body you mentioned is presumably the RYA ? They are highly trained and dedicated officers, can't see them not doing a thorough investigation when children are involved. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 4:30pm
This is most concise answer on the whole thread so far .
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Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 4:43pm
Totally agree with all this post ( I have also had a long stint on committee) .I was just suggesting if we had more info of the allegations and the investigation we could see if any mistakes where made in the process and suggest a new course of action for the OP.
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Posted By: jlecou
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 4:43pm
This is what the RYA says.... https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge/external-affairs/alcohol-and-boating" rel="nofollow - https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge/external-affairs/alcohol-and-boating The RYA has opposed the introduction of drink driving limits for "non professional" mariners as it is unenforceable. ------------- RS400 880 : Laser 203302 : King George SC |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 6:42pm
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Just to reiterate, a full investigation was done BUT it was not concluded properly. At the end of that the accused received nothing for drinking prior to a training session and the investigator was booted out of the club. -The allegation stated that the accused had drank 4 pints before a training session they were likely to be involved in ( whether as senior trainer or as an employee (club development officer). They claimed it was only 1 pint. None of this was corroborated. -The ensuing investigation that had to be carried out properly involved the governing body and local authority. The LA asked for the individual to be suspended pending investigation. That didn't happen and the investigation went on with them in post. - During the course of attempting to collate evidence statements were altered, one of the investigating panel was threatened by the accused. Not all the people involved were able to be interviewed. It didn't get anywhere easily. - The chair, who happened to also be this individuals line manager, apparently decided on his own without any consultation with the committee or investigating panel to clear them of any wrongdoing and told the LA this. -The lead of the investigation told the governing body that the process had been hampered and could not draw a proper conclusion because of lies, collusion and corruption. When others got wind of this, a committee member, whose family member was also in the bar, instigated a disciplinary complaint on the basis that the investigator had 'brought the club into disrepute' by saying such things to the governing body. The disciplinary was chaired by this persons relative! The investigator who was a well respected and honourable member got suspended and later refused renewed membership, ie booted out. I hope that can clarify a little more what this charade is about and that 1) someone has potentially got away with something scot free 2) someone else has been booted out for questioning what has happened. If you can't see that there is corruption afoot here, I don't know how else to explain it. And the primary concern has to be for anyone who is participating in training. If any other of our club members see what has happened to those that have questioned the conduct of committee members in their operation of the club, they will not speak up if they see anything that's not right. That can't be safe. The club welfare policy even states: It is essemtial to develop a culture at ************ where both children and adults feel able to raise issues, knowing that they will be taken seriously, treated confidentially and will not make the situation worse for themselves or others. Clearly for one person having concerns was not safe and they were suspended. You could take this as a one off mistake by those accused but there is a wealth of evidence of drinking around racing and as I said as OD. There is a drinking culture that is behind this that is totally inappropriate. This evidence has also gone to appropriate bodies. Whether you condone drinking and sailing or not, there is no way you can tell that anyone is fit to compete after a heavy night. You can be breathalysed the next day driving and still lose your driving licence.Why should this be any different for sail racing? Many sports have breath tests before competing if concerns are raised. So why allow any drinking at all until after competitions are complete (like the OD rules say below?). I don't come from a sporting background where alcohol is prevalent (despite being in a yacht club for many years), it's a physiological impairment. But in 100's of events over the years in a number of sports I've never seen any competitors or officials drinking, nor boasting about it. And as I mentioned before a comment under a picture of a bladdered sail crew the night before as 'last boat standing' and 'does anyone race sober' gives me great concern for safety. I accept that in leisure sailing, yes people have a drink, no issues, even though the governing body doesn't condone it. But I don't believe it has a place in competition until the event is done and finished. You wouldn't see an umpire at Wimbledon having a drink between matches or Mo Farah having a pint before a race. So why should it be acceptable in sailing? As for the rules on race officials: RYA racing rules section B2 and code of conduct, point 9, stating race officials should: 9. Abstain from consuming alcohol until duties are over for the day. Race officials must never become inappropriately inebriated during an event. Race officials should also refrain from smoking or vaping indoors or whilst carrying out their duties.
RYA Race Officials Code of Conduct RYA race officials (race officers, mark layers, equipment inspectors, judges and umpires) are among the most exposed officials of the sport. It is therefore essential that they behave with the highest degree of competence, propriety and integrity. At no time can or should a race official do anything to bring the sport into disrepute. The words of one resigning director: · ‘Potentially covering up drinking alcohol and working on cadets' boats with no action to even address the behaviour and thus lead it probably to happen again significantly puts future users of this club at risk. There should be a zero tolerance on alcohol just like any other business, I'm shocked this is not the case and it appears drinking is seen as part of the sailing scene in *********. This fundamentally is an extremely dangerous way to operate.’ |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 8:05pm
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RYA and local authority were happy with the commodore saying it had been dealt with? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 9:44pm
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The LA, I assume have taken the word of the chair, which is not worth a jot.
Governing body have had numerous items of evidence yet claim to have nothing to do With club matters and won’t get involved. A process has been deliberately hindered to ensure a favourable outcome to exonerate Someone who holds a status in the club, yet abuses their position in the club. People have nowhere to turn so, resign as directors , where they will be liable for any misconduct. |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 11:10pm
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[QUOTE=JRB12]The LA, I assume have taken the word of the chair, which is not worth a jot.
Governing body have had numerous items of evidence yet claim to have nothing to do With club matters and won’t get involved. A process has been deliberately hindered to ensure a favourable outcome to exonerate Someone who holds a status in the club, yet abuses their position in the club. People have nowhere to turn so, resign as directors , where they will be liable for any misconduct. [/QUOTE Why was the LA involved in the first place ? Why wasn’t the health and safety executive involved ? Also why did the accused have a ‘ line manager’ . What sort of sailing club has ‘ line managers ‘? This situation is very very strange .
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Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 11:15pm
This is the problem I have with this situation. Tbh because it’s outside of my whole sailing experience, I have a problem with the whole of this situation.
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Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 03 Dec 22 at 11:56am
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To explain the line manager, the accused was employed by the club as development officer. This was already after having been a long term voluntary member and sail trainer. As a volunteer club many people did not want a paid role to exist in the club like this. It was basically set up for that person having come out of a programme of sail training where said individual was employed by the LA to deliver sail training over a 3 year period. The public interest of that programme was going to be the income to sustain that paid development role in the club. But to many the figures didn’t add up. It was pure fantasy figures.
The role was proposed by them and a family member on the committee so it was already stitched up. The chair went along with it because the committee individual basically controls the club. The post never went to advert and €20k job went to someone to keep them in a job. So you have the added dimension of whether thie accused was actually working or volunteering and statements were altered over that. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Dec 22 at 5:35pm
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This is a wind up, £20,000 job, only slightly more than minimum wage, hardly a step up. You have just stated he is employed by local authority for three years and by the club? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JRB12
Date Posted: 04 Dec 22 at 10:23am
No, the job with the LA ended and a job was created in the club to give this individual a job. I don’t know the exact salary given or hours worked. As I said they had already been a club member in a voluntary club. There was no need for this paid role. Save some pie in the sky idea that the sail programme done with the LA was going to generate interest in sailing At the club. So imagine a member of your voluntary club getting a full time job there without the broad agreement of the membership, with the scheme being proposed by their family member on the committee. Surely you’d be concerned? |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 04 Dec 22 at 1:17pm
I almost miss dinghy racing as much as threads like this. 
Find another club, it really is very simple |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Dec 22 at 7:17pm
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TT, not tempted to come back for a career change? Top money circa £20,000 ------------- Robert |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 04 Dec 22 at 8:07pm
| Anybody else seeing this as a parallel to Ness’s FB Xmas Quiz? Guess the club…. |
Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 05 Dec 22 at 1:36am
if it is a safeguarding issues the LA would be the first point of call also EHO often do H+S enforcement for smaller organisations voluntary organisations have line managemnt structures you are , quite frankly, embarassing yourself here |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Dec 22 at 7:08am
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he does that a lot, that's why his posts are checked, Nurse could you increase his meds ------------- Robert |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 05 Dec 22 at 12:53pm
hard pass
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Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 05 Dec 22 at 6:31pm
Thanks but I think your last line could be seen as a little patronising Its just it is outside of my experience. I’ve been sailing for 35 years, been a member of 5 clubs ( some small and some middle sized) and been a committee member of my current club for 15 years and have never ever met a ‘ line manager ‘ . Yes I do understand why a LA COULD be involved, I was asking why it was on this case( I had missed the post where the OP explained ) and why it appears had no input or scrutiny of the process. Which is what the OP said happened, which seems unlikely. My problem is not with story , its the view point the story has been related to us from . This story as told to us is ‘ strange ‘ on so many levels and that is my last comment on it
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Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 05 Dec 22 at 6:33pm
Thanks pal But I am not the only oneRe my nurse, I will ask her to up the dosage then next time she calls .
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Dec 22 at 9:13pm
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Try some Laphroaig, that is calming ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 05 Dec 22 at 11:01pm
Good call. But as a man with a Northern Ireland background, Bushmill would be my whiskey of choice.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Dec 22 at 1:20pm
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Should we be discussing alcohol on a thread about drunken trainers sounds like a sea shanty. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 06 Dec 22 at 3:29pm
As I am fairly sure neither of us are running sailing courses today so I think we are ok . |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 09 Dec 22 at 4:10pm
| ffs... Bushmills, another thing I have in common with Duncan. |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 09 Dec 22 at 5:56pm
I’ve accused you of many things over the years James, but bad taste was never one of them .We will have to share a glass or six one of these days .
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Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 12 Dec 22 at 10:19am
| I love Bushmills! Discovered after reading about Sean Dillan and the Prime Minister's private army series of books! |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 12 Dec 22 at 12:02pm
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Perhaps we should have a forum meet up to test bushmills . But maybe not at the OPs ‘ mystery’ club . 😂😂😀 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 13 Dec 22 at 12:40pm
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you're all welcome to Valencia... could even find you some cats to hire, we can drive them bushmilled no sweat. (I'd rather not bother with Lasers... )
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 Dec 22 at 7:11am
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The place in your last photo you posted? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Dec 22 at 12:07pm
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if it was the waterfall, then no, too shallow... probably less acreage than where Duncan sails normally.... we could ride bikes there, with hip flasks.
I was thinking down the coast - somewhere near Altea, a few rental spots along the way, although a little out of season right now. Set a waypoint on a GPS (or a beach bar), that's the finish of race one, start of race two? No need for PY or any of that b**locks…. Winner buys the first round, after all, they’re there first |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 Dec 22 at 12:56pm
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Sounds good, biking and sailing ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 14 Dec 22 at 8:27pm
Sounds good to me . Don’t worry James , we will let you win
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 15 Dec 22 at 8:20pm
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19 degrees tomorrow no surprise you aren't tempted by OP's job ------------- Robert |