Endeavour Trophy 2022
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13982
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 8:38pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Endeavour Trophy 2022
Posted By: Old Timer
Subject: Endeavour Trophy 2022
Date Posted: 05 Oct 22 at 2:46pm
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No Tom Gillard who has won almost everything this year ... shame he's not on the list. Quite a few sailors who didn't win nationals starting ... have they relaxed the rules? https://www.royalcorinthian.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Competitors-2022.pdf My money is on Craig & Lewis.
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Replies:
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 05 Oct 22 at 7:16pm
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You’ve also Steve and Sarah Cockerill (Europe), Tom and Guy (800) who both sail 200’s too Some quick pairings: Russ and Penny are exceptional sailors Returning champion Luke Merlin representatives GP14 pair look strong. Nick and Toby are endeavour veterans, but I think would favour a windy event Should be a great event. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 06 Oct 22 at 10:42am
| Bit of a shame that non national winners are allowed to attend IMHO. This is a champion of champions event, not whoever is free that weekend and came in the top 3... |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 06 Oct 22 at 11:02am
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Bits and pieces suggest it's national champions, but at the end of the day it's an invite only event hosted by the Royal Corinthian and whether they invite you or not is the real rule. I declined the 200 spot in favour of representing the 800 alongside my 800 crew. I would like to see an amateur national champion win and if that can't be me, then I reckon Dobson stands a very good chance, mostly because I rate Emma very highly as a crew.
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Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 06 Oct 22 at 2:48pm
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Good luck with the event . Don’t forget we want day by day updates
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Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 06 Oct 22 at 6:22pm
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Quite a few on the list have 200s so will certainly be interesting to see how everyone gets on! ------------- 3513, 3551 - National 12 136069 - Laser 32541 - Mirror 4501 - Laser 4000 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Oct 22 at 8:15pm
Good luck  ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Oct 22 at 8:51pm
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Excellent to have a forum rider to support at the event! Looking forward to seeing how it goes. Good luck! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 07 Oct 22 at 11:03pm
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Good luck . Hope it goes well for you . 😀 ------------- |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 07 Oct 22 at 11:05pm
| Best of luck with the event . |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 08 Oct 22 at 7:53pm
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Great to see Mozzy at the top of list after day one .
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 09 Oct 22 at 6:39am
| Good show so far Mozzy! |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 09 Oct 22 at 7:26am
It used to be strict on the champions only rule but they have softened on this point and it seems top 3 is enough.
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Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 22 at 7:55am
| https://youtu.be/TpfYqIn_Ytc" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/TpfYqIn_Ytc |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 09 Oct 22 at 1:02pm
| Cheers for that Mozzy |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Oct 22 at 5:49pm
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https://www.royalcorinthian.co.uk/race-results/2022-race-results/2022-endeavour/ Well Done!
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Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 09 Oct 22 at 6:42pm
Congrats Mozzy 
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Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 09 Oct 22 at 6:53pm
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Well done, Tom. Cracking result. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Oct 22 at 6:21am
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Well done ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 22 at 8:11am
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Thanks everyone! Pretty special weekend, can't quite believe it. Certainly rode our luck at times, but I guess you need a bit of fortune to win these things. In the UK dinghy scene this is something I have always aspired to, even to get an invite, or win a race, but never really thought I would get to put my name on the trophy! [TUBE]https://youtu.be/lc35xHcRsgo[/TUBE] |
Posted By: DeeJ
Date Posted: 10 Oct 22 at 8:27am
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Well done
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Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 10 Oct 22 at 1:17pm
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Congrats Mozzy! ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Oct 22 at 4:50pm
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Congratulations! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 10 Oct 22 at 9:36pm
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Well done, that is truly the pinnacle of UK dinghy racing. To win that is to put your name along side the legends of our sport. Smith, Holmes, Crebbin, Estaugh, Hunt, Craig, Southworth, Carveth, Gilbert and so on … and now Morris.
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 11 Oct 22 at 8:01am
| I wonder why Tom Gillard chose the Fireball Inland’s over the Endeavour? |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 11 Oct 22 at 4:17pm
Commercial responsibilities? ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 11 Oct 22 at 5:40pm
I imagine he thought it'd be more fun that ditch-crawling at Burnham. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 12 Oct 22 at 7:38am
Having won pretty much every championship he entered this year you’d have thought the Endeavour would have been the chance to put the icing on the cake.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Oct 22 at 1:48pm
| The Endeavour isn't everyone's cup of tea. I know a couple of folks who decided once was enough. |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 12 Oct 22 at 6:15pm
Probably those who did poorly … it’s a tough gig, the competition is red hot and the venue difficult.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Oct 22 at 6:43pm
| Rather a mean-spirited response. For many sailors the Endeavour is an expensive event that provides an opportunity to sail a boat you haven't chosen at a venue that can tactfully be described as idiosyncratic against people you don't particularly know. Mr Gillard appears to have opted to do a much cheaper event in a boat of his choice at a more conventional venue in a fleet he's familiar with. I'm not sure that's a reflection of his sailing ability. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 Oct 22 at 7:09pm
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Mr Gillard must have enjoyed it, he won every race he entered, 1st place overall. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 12 Oct 22 at 7:44pm
I wasn’t suggesting anything about Tom’s ability I don’t know where you are getting that from … he’s had an epic year and I was only wondering why he didn’t do the Endeavour nothing more than that.
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Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 31 Oct 22 at 12:49pm
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[QUOTE=JimC]The Endeavour isn't everyone's cup of tea. I know a couple of folks who decided once was enough.[/QUOTE I did it 2007 when they used Topper zenons i decided after that if i made it again i would not go i got the offer for 2010 and passed on doing it again once was enough for me ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 31 Oct 22 at 9:27pm
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Whilst I share the lack of enthusiasm to sail a boat like that I cant help but think that by using a mainstream class you end up handing a massive advantage to anyone who as sailed in the class before. Not wishing to take anything away from the achievement of the winner, there were many other experienced 200 sailors in that fleet! But I think the Xenon era was a more level playing field.
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Posted By: salmon80
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 6:07am
2007 was the year I did it too. Once is enough I agree especially if you are only making up the numbers like I was
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 7:04am
Won't that stick out like a sore thumb if you compare the top ten results with the results from the class nationals? |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 8:59am
Yes.
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 9:16am
| Maybe every other year it should be in single handers. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 10:00am
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Would only work if you only picked single handed winners,crew would have to be left out, makes it seem like they are only passengers to be discarded. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 10:45am
Theres no perfect answer. People will look to gain/use whatever legitimate advantage they can. Its billed - or used to be - as a fun event but it's a competitive sport and a coveted - if marmite - event to win and rightly so. But I stand by the observation that the Xenon years were the levellest playing field. Before that were 400s (Advantage home sailors, heavy crews, assy sailors), Ents (Before my time but I'd imagine home sailors, lightweights) and I believe GP14s in the distant past.
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 11:54am
No .. .crews get to race also ... so you could have two entries for double handed classes. Why would you assume crews get discarded ... bit old school ...
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Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 12:33pm
| Yes it was in GP14s for a few years. Mike Holmes’s won it five times-he bought what was probably the fastest boat around at the time to do it, and kept it just for the event. (The boat had a weird sheer line that gave it a droop nose and a longer waterline) |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 12:57pm
Arguably yes, but how many people want to do an expensive event in Xenons, especially on that water? Also very dependant on getting the manufacturer support. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 1:12pm
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Old timer, I crewed in Yachts and Dinghies before taking up helming in 2010, speaking for myself, sure to be others. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 1:39pm
| In some ways it would be more levelled in heavy boats to minimise the difference in crew weights and perhaps boat unfamiliar to the entrants. Squibs or FFs ? Just saying. |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 6:04pm
But not all crews necessarily have the ability to helm a boat? |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 6:23pm
Don’t understand your point. Sorry. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 6:43pm
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Old timer, I didn't have the skill to have taken part, still know people who only crew. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Nov 22 at 8:15pm
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Home sailors are always going to have an advantage, as are those familiar with the chosen boat. They also have to pick a class that can provide enough loan boats for the event so a niche class would be unviable. I'd prefer to see boats without kites as some have little or no experience with them. IMHO the Ent was probably the fairest, carries weight reasonably well no kite to complicate matters, technical but not too technical and it's well suited to inland waters. *Optimum weight used to be, a very average, 22 stone, but whatever boat, lightweights always have an advantage in a drifter and heavyweights when it blows. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 6:58am
That would pretty much exclude the Junior Class sailors which would be a shame IMO |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 8:47am
Why? Keelboats - particularly those - are only large heavy dinghies. The issue with a keelboat would be depth at the venue and it wouldn't ever happen. Wanderer or Wayfarer would be more viable, agree that finding loan boats is an issue though. Hartleys may be able to help as they export a lot of them, or used to. The other option from the same stable would be a H15. Relies on manufacturer support of course, as would a Vision/Quest or similar. But juniors aren't excluded. They may not be advantaged, but frankly if they cant get in one of the above and sail it they wont be in a position to be invited.
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 9:23am
Ah ... I see ... yes plenty of people choose to crew, thankfully, but the event would offer them the option to participate in the single handed cycle ... therefore not discounting crews which is too often the case even in these enlightened days ...
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 9:25am
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All this said the event seems to be in good health so I guess they have the format correct. The RS200 is probably the easiest boat to borrow in the UK and suits most teams of 2 people.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 12:25pm
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It does have a rep for being twitchy though and is not a good weight carrier. A twitchy boat with a kite on an inland venue sounds challenging for those who haven't sailed one before? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 1:12pm
| The story that I heard was that the prototype 200 was so twitchy that they ended up putting the skeg on to dampen it down a bit. |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 2:23pm
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Maybe my boat/ experience background, but I’ve always found the 200 quite docile. Best form your own decisions rather than rumours. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 3:10pm
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Well, we won the endeavour sailing at 145 kilos, so it carries weight pretty well. I did the nationals at 126, finishing 2nd, Elliott and Martin were 140. It's twitchy compared to a GP14, but not that twitchy compared to a N12. For a race boat, rather than a 'trainer racer' like a 2000 I would say it is about as unremarkable in it's handling as is possible to get.
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Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 3:13pm
Everyone is allowed an opinion... but holding the dinghy champion of champions event in a *keelboat* is pretty weird. The 200 is pretty good in that both an oppy sailor at 45 kilos, or a OK sailor at 90 can find someone to sail with. I could have chosen someone more 'on weight' to sail with, but preferred to do it with my championship winning crew.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 3:17pm
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Fair comment, and the sailors entering the Endeavour are amongst the best we have. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 4:17pm
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I don't doubt that the story about the skeg being to damp things down a bit is true, the skeg being such a very unusual feature in a boat without rowing in its task list.
And I'm also of the opinion that RS got it pretty much right, lively enough to be interesting in an adult's race boat, but not so lively as to put people off. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Nov 22 at 7:19pm
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I'd say it's a bit like the Firefly in that it's easy to sail till it bites you in the bum when you get the boat handling wrong. In a bit of breeze, I couldn't get the hang of using little enough of the quite big rudder, so we swam. And the more we swam, the more nervous I became and the worse it got. That's not a fault of the boat, it's me cocking up.
Like spinning out in a go kart. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 03 Nov 22 at 11:56am
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I borrowed a 200 on a couple of occasions after selling my N12 to emigrate, and off the back of 15+ years of 400 sailing. I was surprised how much closer to the 12 the 200 was in feel, not much like a 400. We enjoyed it though, and no doubt if we'd done more it would all begin to feel normal. They are certainly uber popular! ------------- Europe AUS53 & FF 3615 National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret |
Posted By: Ian99
Date Posted: 03 Nov 22 at 4:27pm
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I wouldn't describe a 200 as "twitchy" really. They are a bit roly-poly like most wide, short boats though punish errors a lot less than many racing dinghies. Obviously you won't get away massive boat handling errors like you can in a Wayfarer for example, but everything is fairly progressive. If you can sail any racing dinghy well, you're likely to be able to manage a 200 without many issues. Which is of course why they are popular and make a good boat for the Endeavour. For their size, they do actually carry a heavyweight helm quite well - a Phantom or Finn sailor might be a bit big for the front but would be fine helming with a lightweight crew. I owned one for a while, and my main impression of them was that the spinnaker was a bit small and they felt a bit gutless downwind - but that was from the perspective of a regular Fireball sailor who'd also recently owned a B14!! Ultimately though, it's the small spinnaker which makes them successful. They are about the only one of the "new" (post 1990s) crop of doublehanded boats which work round the cans at all those local muddy puddle clubs so many of us sail at.
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Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 03 Nov 22 at 10:17pm
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Given the number at the nationals, and the demographics of them (lots of the young adults who are hard to keep in the sport, I understand) they could be the sort of boat the industry, World Sailing and others should be promoting instead of the less accessible classes they tend to publicise. |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 04 Nov 22 at 12:14pm
I think the 200 carries weight well for it's size mainly because it is a heavy boat itself ... shame they built it like a tank. |
Posted By: windyrich76
Date Posted: 05 Nov 22 at 10:51am
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"shame they built it like a tank." Really? I always though the 200 was a little on the light side?
Are there any lighter hiking double handers of a similar size on the market? ------------- Boats and floaty things are too distracting. So I'm told. |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 05 Nov 22 at 11:40am
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Comparing the bare hull weight of a RS200 at 78kg to a N12 at 78kgs ( including mast and centreboard) seems to suggest the 200 is no light weight but it’s no porker either . It seems to sit in that nice average space ,weight wise.
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Posted By: Mongoose
Date Posted: 05 Nov 22 at 12:10pm
| Tasar! |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 05 Nov 22 at 1:54pm
Hull only weight 68kg .
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 09 Nov 22 at 10:38am
An RS200 does not weigh 78kgs all complete; that is a marketing definition of hull weight which isn't comparable with what you'd normally expect. I believe that figure is the weight of the hull before it's fitted out, It would be more useful to see the all up weight of boats quoted rather than something not clearly defined. I weighed my RS200 at 96kgs which was bare hull with board fitted.
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Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 09 Nov 22 at 3:25pm
Have corrected my post for accuracy, and to represent what I had meant to post . Totally agree all up weight is a much useful thing to know .
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Posted By: skslr
Date Posted: 09 Nov 22 at 5:30pm
Well, you can say "it carries weight pretty well" if you win at 180 kg. At 145 kg it's more like "it works well mid-range". If you sail at > 150 kg next to a 120 kg crew you can easily see just how much deeper your boat sits in the water. And YES, it strangely does feel somewhat wobbly under you compared to e.g. an RS400 if you are closer to 90 kg than to 60 kg. And NO, it does not carry a 90 kg helm well, neither a crew... (Sorry, I just have to air my frustration... I would by one immediatly if I would be small enough myself ) |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Nov 22 at 10:14am
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RS do publish all up sailing weights for many of their boats, the RS200 has a sailing weight of 114kg according to their website.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |