Think the top section has been class legal for a couple of years. 

Were you sailing at Draycote today ? , the pursuit race looked like fun . My wife and I thought the 505 was going to win today . 

Perhaps that's why the PY number has increased?

I'm sure this forum would be more widely used if this group restricted their posts so the rest of us can read other opinions and comments that also might  be more informative. 

That doesn't explain why the PN has gone up though...

 I'd like to put a Torch to that...

I now feel obliged to comment ... no doubt GRF will have to comment on Laser/ILCA PY banditry 

PN's go up because the RYA calculates that they've gone up.

Laser, IlCA, Ovington or people racing on the water get on with sailing, they don't have any role in calculating PY changes.

The 'carbon' composite spars are not much of a game changer, they just break a lot less often, particularly when Lasers are sailed hard at top level. The average UK PY puddle sailor probably didn't break many ali spars. People doing class events on the sea or big lakes were breaking too many, engineering out some of the recurrent breakages was well overdue.

Ironically, half-bright whining about the Laser's PY is a reminder why people like class racing where it's not an issue. Just remember that the Laser PYs are based on a lot more data than most others.

laser sailing and in a handicap race ... 

I believe his posts are first vetted by someone in charge of this forum before appearing for all of us to view. I get the emails that notify me of replies and you can see in his posts it says 'Verified by: xxx'.

It’s only the top section and it is designed to replicate the same mast bend so the only real difference is the the fact it weighs a bit lighter ( and before a ILCA sailor comes on and says it weighs the same as the old ali section . This was confirmed to me in writing by the Australian manufacturer  )

To put this into prospective. The Supernova changed to a epoxy build a few year ago and the minimum weight dropped from about 62kg to 50kg. Did it’s handicap get harder ? No, it got slightly easier because all that happened was it attracted a lot of slow sailors to the class .

Also I  don’t remember any of the normal suspects on here calling the Supernova a bandit when this happened at the time . 

I may not be a "usual suspect" but i'm sure ive commented that the newer Supernovas are a fairly massive bandit as soon as the course in any way favours a singlehander. IE relative to similar classes they seem to have a very favourable handicap.

You are definitely not a ‘ usual suspect ‘ .  Unlike myself  who is definitely thought of as one, by some members of this forum 

That were you sailing ? We watched all the starts from the solos onwards. It was a lovely day for a sail, we were very jealous even though we were still recovering from sailing on Sunday .

As a side issue all power to the child in the optimist, they stuck it out for the whole race. They must have been out there for about 2 hours . 

You and your mates seem to be over opionated on most subjects.

Oh dear , we seem a little fractious tonight . 

As iGRF would say in this situation, either scroll on by or post something interesting yourself. 

I don't know who you are addressing this post to, but you want to reread what I wrote, and get your facts correct before falsely accusing me of  'giving instructions on how to cheat' 

I was pointing out how any unscrupulous person could and still can buy, the cheaper PSC LASER and easily convert it to an ILCA if they were so inclined. 

I don’t think so , it’s far too short a post for him .

Now we know who he is . It’s the angry LP ( or what ever it’s called these days ) sock puppet who’s first posts were about how to pass off none class legal boats at class events.

It all makes sense now . 

Does this refer tot he official ILCA composite spars, which have been around maybe 7 years?, or maybe to the unofficial ones which a certain well known spar maker was selling before that?

The weight of the ali spars can vary, 'off the shelf' ali tube is not that finely toleranced.

Originally posted by A2Z But *all* the mechanical properties cannot be identical else the composite one would also deform plastically and stay bent.   I guess the only ones that need to be matched are weight, EI and outer diameter. And how the properties change with temperature in a range of -10 to +40 should be matched.

All that's needed is for the spars to make the boat go pretty much the same speed.

Same as withthe MK1/MK2 sails, they are a little different, and people may sail a little differently to get the best out of them, but on the water, they are not different enough to affect the outcomes of races significantly.

It becomes irrelevant after a coupe of seasons when all the top sailors are using the same kit. The old kit is generally then a bit tired anyway.

Likewise the GRP foils, no big performance gain relative to a properly fettled old blade, but easier to keep in good nick so everyone has the same.

People who actually sail Lasers at club level are generally not able to use the equipment as an excuse unless it's really clapped out.

I've done a fair bit of medium quality Laser/Laser Radial club racing in my time and never bent nor broken a bottom section.

My problem with the carbon bottom section is not that it may or may not be slightly lighter, bendier or whatever, it's that it costs upwards of £900 which, coupled with the cost of a carbon/composite top section, means that a Laser Radial mast costs some £1,500 quid, which is more than my boat is worth! 

The official ILCA top section. The lighter weight has also been confirmed on Performance Sailcraft Australia fb page .

Personally I don’t think there is any performance advantage for the average ILCA sailor but I do know a couple of sailors that are racing against ILCA sailors using them that think there is a very small performance gain in certain conditions. Could just be in their own minds though 

Think yourself lucky the two piece mast for my D-zero is a lot more than that and I don’t have the freedom of picking up second hand class legal ali spars or buying new replica spars . 

How many grammes lighter exactly?

It's not like a carbon Merlin mast vs a Proctor D is it?

If I remember correctly it was in the 300g range.

PS. For anyone that’s missing iGRF and wondering what  is up to, he is busy telling someone on the Solution dinghy fb page to STFU. .

this.... in fact, there was a time when I considered buying an MPS rudder and stock and converting it for use on a Rooster 8.1 setup for club racing.  It wouldn't have been a bad boat, for a fraction of the cost of something a lot nicer.

£500+ for a composite spar is perhaps value added to the boat.

Plus it saves £100 for a replica spar every couple of years for some people, and possibly £100 for a sail repair and maybe even stops an expensive weekend being ruined by predictable gear falure.

the whole rudder thing is so funny as a ex-owner and sailor of this class, it is, IMO, by the far the crappest element of the boat (after the loopy controls but before the bendy spars and stretchy sails) and yet it's been kept, unchanged, pretty much since the early days.  The first L*ser I sailed had wooden tiller, no UJ, a swivel jammer and wooden grab rails in the cockpit and the old bailer (so that dates me) but it still had that exact same profile, raked back, too-small rudder blade and stock as you get today.  I'm all for OD and control but keeping something bad for 30+ years which is so easily and relatively cheaply replaced, baffles me.

A lot of people don't seem to understand that the 'rudder' on a Laser isn't there to steer the boat, it's there to let you know you're not keeping the boat flat enough.

Fitting a 'better' rudder would make it much easier to sail the boat badly and slowly.

The mistake many make, depending on their weight is thinking they are 20 fit enough to sail  full rig. The Radial / ILCA 6 is an awesome boat for the sub 75kg sailor. Fraction of the cost of an Aero, Solo etc and including regular sail renewal ownership still low, the changes in design have been minimal over the history of the class. I can go to an event within a days drive at least every two weeks in the season. Fantastic quality training frequently available plus more training media most or classes combined. If you’re having issues with handling a Laser then you definitely need to sailing Laser, if you are finding the rudder too small you’re doing something wrong. It’s not the boat it’s the nut on the tiller. As for carbon top mast, when I bend my alloy one I’ll get one still 1000s still in the bank compared to the alternative classes. I could, but won’t sell mine tomorrow and including two new sails and a few other bits cost less the £50 an month over two year 

I speak as a man that sailed a Laser and Laser Radial for over 20 years . 

The Laser is many things ,it has great class racing , a good class association, and is stunning value for money second hand. BUT it’s not a awesome boat , the world has moved on and it hasn’t  enough.  It’s a 1960s Mini Cooper in a 2022 world . Yes it’s now fitted with air con and it’s fitted with a better radio, but no one’s looked at changing the engine, steering or brakes 

Does that matter, speed comes from length it has that vs Solo, Solution, Streaker. It’s comfy down wind, no kneeling vs Aero, Blaze, Super Nova. Easy to right and recover vs Solo, OK. Yes the mast and sail are from the 60s  but it’s a small price to pay for the long list of advantages. Steering is fine, like all dinghies windward heel to head up leeward heel to bear away with a wiggly thing at the back to aid when needed 

Originally posted by 423zero Don't forget the main sheet catching under the corners, the vertical sides of the cockpit.

When you get down to it, I can't think of a single part of the boat that isn't pretty awful.

As a boat, it wants a clean sheet of paper, design something better.

But we excuse all that between the 1 minute gun and the finish line.

Because all that matters is racing the other boats.

Ultimately you buy a Laser to race against other people - but sometimes you have to accept when you're just not going to fit in and the racing's not for you.

But will still stuff your knees in time anyway ....   But we were always told it was 'poor technique' of course...  Yes of course ....Well they would say that, always did back in the day.  Don't like kneeling in the alternatives mentioned ?  ... just get some decent kneepads. There you are solved it for you !  Volleyball ones can be very good and a third of the price of many inferior 'marine' ones btw.    The Laser is still around and will be for a while yet - but it is never going to tackle some very basic and inbuilt design faults and niggles.... that would risk making all earlier ones worth even less.

Does it matter ? If your young ,fit and class racing is the most important thing in your sailing world , of course not .

But if your like me and your sick to death with people like you telling you every problem you have with a laser is a lack of technique, yes it does. 

So I’ve changed class and l no longer had any of these problems with any of the other boats I have own since,  funny that isn’t ? 

The whole package is of its time, and its done a great job but key parts of it are now conservatively 30 years out of date and I just don't see a long list of advantages over its immediate rivals anymore and haven't for some time. The only advantages that I can see are you can buy a reasonable one for £500 and it takes 10 minutes to rig up from trailer and tow bar - thats why I bought one over lockdown.

The GP14 also was a thing of its time, reached the point where they could do better and revamped to suit. Possibly easier to get through with the GP class than the Laser, but id imagine Jack Holt wasn't too enthusiastic about it (End of his life would have been around then, he'd have been alive while they were planning it at least) and its still an international class - but they saw which way the wind was blowing and while not everyone's cup of tea its still a relatively large two man class.

The point being there isn't much wrong with the hull, or even the construction or nowadays the fit out or rig. But if they want to compete with the Aero as anything other than the Costco version the rudder needs throwing away and the mainsheet system needs tidying. This would cost very little and would - or could - be retrofittable to every existing boat at relatively little expense if they play the game on margin. 

To not do that after doing the rest simply doesn't make sense, it would make the boat more accessible and even less like standing a 1992 Peugeot 106 next to modern A class Merc.

You may want to review how your sail without a rudder..........;)

On all points of sail and during all manoeuvres it is critical to keep attached flow on the sail, something not possible if you aren’t in control of the main sheet

Recently someone said to me that if today Ben Ainslie sailed a Laser with the techniques he used in Sydney he wouldn’t make the cut for the medal race. For displacement boats I challenge anyone to name a class that is still advancing handling techniques mor that the humble ILCA.

Here’s one, specific to Laser sailing, that says flat isn’t fastest. 

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On all points of sail and during all manoeuvres it is critical to keep attached flow on the sail, something not possible if you aren’t in control of the main sheet

Recently someone said to me that if today Ben Ainslie sailed a Laser with the techniques he used in Sydney he wouldn’t make the cut for the medal race. For displacement boats I challenge anyone to name a class that is still advancing handling techniques mor that the humble ILCA.

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Tink. . Look  I think every one on here understands the strengths of the ILCA/Laser and the class as well . But the weaknesses of the boat design are there for everyone to see and yes you can learn techniques so you can overcome these weaknesses ( which most newer singlehanded classes don’t have ) .But that doesn’t mean the weaknesses are not there and that most of them could  have been eradicated with some low cost modifications . 

The arguments you put forward are the same as the ones used by the Sunfish class in the USA. 

And how many of us on this side of the pond think that great rewarding dinghy ? 

Thaks for the link.

For 5 knots of boat speed, it suggests about 7 degrees of heel.

Few in my club get flatter than that.

Most of us would have wet backsides.

As for worrying about fractions of a degree of trim, when the sea is flat enough for that to be meaningful, I'd prefer to be sailing something else, like the committee boat maybe?

No mention of windward heel in the article?

We forget that the Laser was never intended to be what its grown into.

It was supposed to be a beach boat, easy to transport, rig, and quick to get afloat. A job it still does fairly well, but as a racing boat it has niggles and flaws that everyone bar one person that I can see think need sorting.

If the clones are aimed within the same marketplace it doesn't matter. They are unlikely to go out in much more than a F3 and will do the job just as well - it comes down to price.

As a racing boat however..........

Actuallythe early history of the Laser is more subtle than the 'Weekender beach boat doodle'.

The Laser as we know it took that and made it an 'America's Teacup' $1000 racer.

It walked all over the opposition and got sold for racing.

In reality, the Laser comes into its own above F4.

That's when it starts PY winning races on the sea.

In my clubs, it's rare for Lasers to capsize on days when no other boats capsize, unless the other boats are staying ashore.

It'spossible that a modern design could be easier to keep right way up when the waves get exciting, but we just don't have the fleets of anything 'better'.The Dzero tempts me, but it's a big old rig when the Laser is pushing my limits of competence.

Originally posted by 423zero Amazed at the copies of the Laser, the Russian version is almost identical,, got to have been moulded from a genuine one.

Probably made out of either titanium or bakelite and buying one is not 'the done thing' just now?

From my experience I now sail in much windier conditions than I ever did when I owned my lasers in the Dzero. The gust response is night and day different, so much easier to control.

Anyone that can sail a laser can sail a D-zero .

All the Laser problems ( rig, main sheet, foils etc ) we have talked about for the last couple of pages have been corrected as you would expect as it was designed by a man that sailed at the highest level in Lasers. People might say , I would say all that as we all love are own classes don’t we ? 

All I would say is , JUST TRY ONE. I don’t think the dealer is doing demo dayes anymore but if you contact them or better still the class association , on fb or on their website, they will put you in contact with a D-zero owner that will let you have a go in your area. ( any problems message me as I probably have some useful email addresses somewhere. ) 

It’s not a perfect boat, no boat is, but it is a bloody good one 

Sure I’ve seen a pic of a Eastern European Laser copy somewhere, that was open transom . Looked like a supernova from behind 

I am tempted by the zero as my 'other boat' for PY, but to replace the Laser, you don't need to sell me a boat, you need to sell my club a fleet. The problem is, we've got sailors who are still in touch with the fleet in old Lasers worth a grand or less, maybe spending a couple of hundred quid every 3 years for a replica sail. That's 'inclusivity' for you!

Not a problem for me . I’ve always been a very average sailor and even though I’ve done class racing I don’t find it ‘ special’ or ‘ better ‘ . 

Much rather do  pursuits ( where I am often last boat off ) and see how far I can get in the mixed fleet, second is my best so far in the 8 months I’ve owned the boat.

Everyone to their own though. We all have to get our sailing fun in different ways , after all there is only ever one winner in a race . 

I enjoy a balance of 'class' racing in the Laser, and casual PY racing in other boats. Plus the odd outing in cruiser racing, and hopefully getting back to cross-channel wine-buying trips in a cruiser.

The class racing is the only 'racing' that has meaningful results, but I enjoy other 'sailing'. In PY racing, you can get a lot out ofthe race in terms of tactics, starting, not capsizing and so on, without caring about the results. Likewise, any actual adult ought to be able to race Lasers against people they respect and not sulk if they don't come first.

This is a tired old argument Tink, yes of course keeping the boat flatter helps* with control but the simple fact of the L*ser rudder is the blade is too small and it's raked backwards.  Even rockstars end up with rooster tails off the crappy thing and weather helm.  Just allowing owners to file a groove to allow the blade to go vertical would be a massive help.

*as with all boats

Yes and no. The very first sketch was intended to be a beach boat (or actually a "cottage boat" as Ian Bruce or Bruce Kirby told me).  But then, as they said, the inevitable tendency of Ian, Hans and Bruce moved it to more of a performance boat and then they very soon realised that its real niche was not so much as a Sunfish competitor/beach boat, but as a one design racer.  That's why it ended up as quite a different boat to the original "beach boat" concept.

It does have niggle and flaws and yes, it's hard to see why the class can't do a few small things that would cost basically nothing and not obsolete existing boats. You could allow deck pads; create a kit to stop the mainsheet catching; and change the rudder rake. They could all be retrofitted if one wanted to, and they would make the boat better to sail.

However, everything's relative. Any boat is uncomfortable if you are hiking hard enough, and any trap boat seems to have its own issues. For vast numbers of us, the Laser's positives outweigh the negatives.

I've only sailed two of the newer classes brought in to "replace" the Laser but I was fairly underwhelmed. Both of them seemed to lose some of the things I really like in the Laser (ie its ability to roll tack so well and to be steered with heel downwind so much) without giving much improvement in other areas. One of them I found a bit eerie because it seemed to have the characteristics I don't like in skiff types, without the characteristics I do like in skiffs - but others love it and good on 'em.

I kind of agree with this, the ability to buy a good one for £1500 or a reasonable one for half that or less if you're careful and know where to look (Goes for any boat) is a major plus point. 

The problem with that particular positive (Lets leave aside speed of rigging, cockpit space [more than a solo] and accessible class racing) is if it isn't a nice boat to sail the vast majority of people will only tolerate it as long as they have to and by that I mean till they get fed up of sailing because of it or can afford something better.

I bought one to sail over covid because it ticked all sorts of boxes that no other boat did in the price range. I sold it a few weeks ago because, frankly, with access to what I regard as proper sailing restored I don't need it. If the rudder worked, mainsheet didn't catch and the sails lasted longer than 15 minutes my Solo might find its position under threat.