Solo fleet is no more,( Fireball and flying fifteen are not what they were either ) solo  no longer have their own start. The ones that are left, sail in the menagerie fleet now . Mostly covid related, in the first lock down , Draycote stopped doing fleet starts for a while, and a lot of solo sailers followed Chris Brown to other clubs.

Laser fleet is still very strong and Aero numbers are still growing too so it’s not all bad news . 

The only bullsh@t is coming from deepest Kent  

This is supported by a ‘preferred class’ list that will get you a berth if you join. Otherwise, you might or might not. 

We also run class racing for Yawls in the main season.  Otherwise there are three handicap starts comprising Junior, Medium and Fast.  The Aero 7 just makes the Fast Handicap.  The division of the Handicap fleets is more of a length of race issue, it takes an RS Terra considerably more time to complete the same distance than a 505.

I think the Handicap Fleets enjoy themselves, they sail boats that they like, and their is evidence of changing classes to suit their needs.  Our handicap fleets include three ex multiple World and National Champions so the quality of racing is high, sailing different classes of boat, and the cream tends to float to the top.

That said having 30 of the same class out every week is great, but these days pretty unlikely. I learnt to sail in a club that only had one class, it was a rude awakening attending the revett series at L&L the first time - boats coming at you from all angles.

I spent loads of time on open circuits, so class racing again, great for what it is, but classes no longer have an event every week like they did in the 80's & 90's and travelling al over ultimately doesnt compute with family /work life. So makng the best of handicap sailing is where its at for me

You old f@@ker I didn’t even start sailing until 1989/90 

What about european clubs?

Mostly seen class racing over there.

I think Parkstone is class fleets only. Or might have one handicap fleet (i've heard of merlins being sailed here)

Originally posted by Mozzy I would say the amount of clubs that run exclusively class fleets is a smaller minority than those that run exclusively handicap racing. But most clubs run a mixture.

Yes, I'd agree, probably 99% of clubs have a handicap fleet.

There's also a lot of small keelboats giving very good OD racing in many places.

But as soon as you want to move above 'club' level, nobody is taking handicap racing too seriously in dinghies.

It's different in yachts, where the aim of the game has always been developing a better yacht as well as scoring the way it's sailed.

PY has never been in the game of non-class development dinghies.

Some dinghy sailors ought to get out more and have a go in yachts or 'dayboats'. it makes you think about what you actually want from, or value, in dinghy racing.

You can add Budworth to the list.  Adopted classes only but with handicap racing on Wednesday evenings and Saturday afternoons.  Sundays are a pre-lunch handicap race followed by three afternoon class races.

As far as I am aware, we are one of the few clubs in the North West that don't run a menagerie fleet.

* And my dad was a member of the Laser fleet back in the day.

Only when we have special events is there class racing now for dinghies.

The Keelboat fleets still run as separate classes at the moment.

So we have....

Allcomers A is boats above 17.5ft which mostly are the 4 classes of open deck keelboats we have for when they have a mixed race....

 Allcomers B which is Dinghies 12+ft to 17.5ft,....

 Allcomers C Dinghies 12ft and below...

Same goes for the many local classes on the Broads, Harbours and Estuaries. 

Budworth was on my list when I considered stepping up my race board commitment one time a few years ago... but it was just too far for a midweek series; probably less of an issue now as I could 'Windsurf' From Home as long as the iPhone is logged in to Google Apps and there's minimal adherence to the rules regarding a smart watch.

As far as dinghy classes are concerned Budworth don't sail anything I would consider racing myself. Budworth is the only NW club I'm aware of that races Raceboards at club level (does Glossop?). WRT 7.5m RB class I agree strongly that the UKWA shot themselves in the foot when they abolished the 7.5m RB class in favour of keeping the 'unlimited' RB class and adopted the new International RB class with it's 9.5m sail (for men, 8.5 for women). The NW series continued to race the 7.5m class and it is the nucleus of sailors from that series that support the Budworth Tuesday night series.

At our club we introduced Lasers one winter on a trial basis, and over the space of a month managed to get 40 or so in, the club recognized that the writing was on the wall when we were getting 20+ turnouts, so approved it as an approved class.  

For the other “new” classes, at that time new clubs were appearing at any sailable stretch of water, so there were plenty of opportunities.

Clubs opening up to handicap racing was out of necessity as there was an oversupply of clubs and classes, exacerbated by the growth of windsurfing.  

Clubs like Budworth and Wembley have probably bucked the trend through serendipity.

Personally, if it was convenient through being in the right place, and I thought they  had good people for me to race against, I'd not be bothered what class that implied, so long as it was something where I could afford a competitive (ish) boat. Boats can be bought and sold, competitors matter.

* prices for competitive Solos have fallen since I bought the Blaze 5 years ago and my available 'boat fund' money is a little higher too.

Back in the 70s, lots of clubs seemed to have half a dozen of some obscure class, the club gave them a PY and reported it back to the RYA who added it to the list.

It worked quite well because there were enough Wilmington-On-Sea 14ft OD class racing against Enterprises for people to accept rhe number locally, and nobody much took those boats to big events and caused any issues or suddenly started racing them 'seriously' against 505s or something.

Factoid: In 1962 there were 16 Primary yardsticks, of which two were Teign Corinthian OD classes.

I think the system was operated differently in those days and people had different expectations.

It was only when these turnouts went into decline and there were spaces in the boatpark that the club opened up to handicap racing, and put a greater emphasis on recreational sailing as well as racing.

I would suggest that many inland/gravel pit type clubs were set up at the same time as the Jack Holt/Ian Proctor (founder of ASC) and Peter Milne revolution.  

Whereas the sea clubs came with a history of local classes.  Salcombe, where I sail now, raced a plethora of local classes post war, I have a 60 year old Salcombe pram in my garage.  These boatbuilders followed a tradition of boatbuilding of Fruit Schooners ... no doubt other ports had their own traditions.  

These, as you point out were built by local boat builders and were suited to local conditions.  

I guess that the original National 12s, Merlin Rockets and International 14s when they came along were a good fit with many local classes, being of clinker and carvel construction.  These classes evolved also in part due to the influences of Ian Proctor and Jack Holt.

Well, apart from the 

The club I grew up on (Reading Sailing Club) used to have a similar sign "Enterprise, Laser, Mirror, Solo" as the adopted classes. In reality by the time i joined in the early 90's only the lasers had their own start. Each fleet had a bit of a resurgence over the 90's and early 2000's and got back class starts then lost them again.

It was always a losing battle, people prefer to buy something with a bandit handicap to try to win rather than just practicing to get better.... 

For me handicap racing has a place at low level to get participation but I've always preferred class racing so did the open circuit.

Now I live in Australia and fleet racing is still very much a thing! My club has Laser, B14, Mirror, Sabot and Open skiff. I also have a Sabre but have never sailed it at the club, I choose instead to visit another club which has fleets for Sabres and Pacers as well as racing the circuit.

Hopefully Australia wont go the way the UK has.....

The two posts about Aus underline that many (most?) other countries manage to retain class racing as the default. The UK system of anything goes is a bit like trying to run a farm by letting anything and everything grow in the fields and then wondering why there's nothing to eat... Some management is necessary, probably too late now.

I wonder how much Laser 'fleets' do to reduce participation at many clubs. So many clubs have one, with 1-2 of each rig racing, often on handicap or as separate results. By keeping them separate from the handicap fleet, both end up with reduced numbers and a more disappointing racing experience. There often seems to be no logic - other classes in the club that get better numbers still have to race in a handicap fleet...?

Critical mass and coherence is important. With the small numbers and great spread of ability and boat performance in many club fleets, it's probably not unusual to have barely a handful of competitive races in a season. Certainly often feel a sense of 'meh' after many club races, trailing round bad courses in relative isolation. This is almost never the case with class events.  

  

Sounds like what I do!

I couldnt think of anything worse .

But everyone to their own .

They wont fix it because there is no momentum behind change. The overwhelming majority are quite happy doing what they do.

If anything club racing/local circuit sailing is going to see a big increase in participation relative to national level.

Totally agree with both these points . 

The biggest individual club averages about 60 starters per weekend across five classes, with no mixed fleets. There's a 2018 Olympic gold medallist (Tom Burton) in the normal fleet and not dominating, with three other gold medallists (Slingsby, Outteridge and Jensen) joining in a bit for regattas and getting a bit of a whipping, so the standard is OK.

At least three other clubs average 35-55 each week.  

One city (Sydney) has about 15 Laser fleets with about 10-35 boats turning up most weekends in just about all of them, plus fleets of lots of other classes, of course.

In some regions it's 95% class racing whether it's big clubs or small ones, in some regions major and minor clubs mainly do mixed fleets but often break them down for results. 

I'm NOT saying it's better, because that seems to be impossible to judge, but it's very hard to logically claim that it's an inferior club racing scene overall.

It’s doesn’t matter if people are handicap or fleet racing . It’s the number of people sailing at clubs week in week out that matter .

The thought of practicing at a sailing centre and only racing at open meeting would have me looking for another sport . Probably because I hate the packing and unpacking that goes with doing open meeting .

I would rather get my races in , have a glass of wine and know I am only 20 mins from home .

humans are lazy, although the whatsapp group stuff worked during LD most if not all reverted back to club type, becasue its easier to follow the path of least resistance.

Its why clubs are slow to change/adopt new ideas, the risk is too great and the decline too slow that when a class or fleet start disppear its almost not seen as a loss as its done so so slowly that it can be said to not have happended at all.

radical change isn't what is required (for most clubs) but club committees willing to try somehting new and not just stick to the formula cos its always been that way just wont cut it long term.

A lot of clubs did less formal things through covid, but some of this would make club sailing less accessible to young people and beginners.

A lot of the old ways probably evolved for a reason.

You need a certain degree of formality to put rescue boats in place.

If you want timing and PY that implies a race officer.

A lot of the alternatives may not endure once the novelty wears off.

Or are not so different anyway. A lot of people treat club racing as training/practice and don't worry about the results.

But some alternatives are good, like coaching and tuning days, inter-club events etc.

The positive of loads of classes are that there is definitely a class for you out there be you a giant or a dwarf, whether you want to sail on your own, with a young child, or with someone as equally dimensionally gifted/challenged as you are. If you want a new challenge you change class.

Class racing is better, but if I must handicap race i'd much rather do it in a boat I like sailing.

I think the UK arrangement suits the UK - its a british solution.

If that I what your club puts on I would move clubs. Good course setting is key to good racing of any format. You'll never get away from some courses suiting some classes better but if we can at least choose our side upwind and downwind and maybe whether to high or low on the reaches we usually feel that we have had a good sail.

Think this sums it up rather well. 

Confidence is (most?) important to participation - if you are sure you'll have good racing you'll make more effort to turn up and prioritise sailing over other things in life. There's a difference to the draw of a 'certain' 20+ boat open meeting and a 'maybe' 5 boat one - same applies at club level.

So what do you do if you're 6 foot 3, 15 stone, want to helm a two man boat competitively and the only available classes are 420, 470, Fireball and local one designs? Thats quite a large chunk of our population that in Europe are potentially (depending on the local classes) lost to the sport that over here are catered for.

Regarding the second point if you think back to the 90's the writing was on the wall for the Boss, Iso and Buzz as soon as Laser got their teeth into the market, and they they were also obviously and throughly done over by RS - you could see it coming the key was to not be an early adopter and to carefully check before committing exactly like buying a car. The classes that have disappeared did so for very good and obvious reasons. Spares wise pretty much all classes use nominally the same masts and booms (Remember how ubiquitous the old D section was - and would probably still be - over many, many classes? Its still largely the same with I guess 10 or so mast variations suiting the majority of UK based classes). There isn't a lot thats totally class specific with no parallel anywhere else, certain early carbon one design masts excepted and sails of course.

I would argue the flip side to your argument against changing class as a new challenge. A new pecking order, different people, different venues, clubs, subtle differences in how you achieve the same thing. Actually I think I improve more by trying different things than by doing the same every week. 10 years ago id have been with you but wider experience has taught me otherwise in my case - not everyone learns the same way though, and for some people you are right, they do bandit hunt.

We used to do it all the time when I was at school (Mid 90s). Would be frowned upon now.

Is everyone a GRF-sized troll in Europe then?!  Most sports are body-type sensitive at high level. Your 15 stoner won't make a jockey and GRF won't be playing pro basketball anytime soon. However at amateur level those aspects are far less important.

The irony is being the perfect size is even less important in sailing as it is so complex and as most club sailors would usually benefit far more from just getting the basics right. Of course the UK system feeds the myth of finding the 'perfect' boat (obviously because the sailor can never be at fault ) which tallies pretty closely with how consumerism operates - just one more purchase and everything will be perfect...


The Finn exists in Europe. As CT249 has pointed out repeatedly keelboat sailing is actually the biggest participation area in most countries so plenty more options there for varied crew sizes. Then there is the Snipe with fleets and a very high level of competition internationally. No doubt most Y&Y'ers will be sniggering about the idea of such a heavy, odd looking boat but I'd suspect there are far more Snipes being sailed at a far higher level than many of the Y&Y forum favourites (RS100? H2? Alto, Farr 3.7....).

a 15 stoner could be a jockey in a shire horse race...............;)

One of the biggest step changes in the last 20/30 years is the development and perfection of raking rigs and carbon rigs, allowing previously heavyweight dominated classes to be sailed by lighter people. I don't think that this is entirely a good thing, you don't see too many 6 foot 2 men under 14 stone, and they're hardly obese either. When most UK classes were designed such a person would have made up a small percentage of the population. Funny how we spent 40 years learning how to depower only for population size to catch up!

But I don't think the European version is the answer either, in fact I really do think we do it better for our audience. Literally anyone of any size can find a class that they can sail competitively either with someone else (Also of whatever size) or by themselves. I get that the singlehander market on the other side of the channel is pretty well served (Ok, Finn, Solo, Contender, Laser, Splash - something there for the vast majority of people and i'm bound to have missed one/two) doublehanders however have a poor selection of  - frankly - largely poor classes to choose from if they want national level racing (Depending upon the FD and 505 distribution, but I perceive the 420 and 470 are very dominant - the Snipe just doesn't do anything for me). Now the racing might be amazing, but to me it's got to get a bit stale once you've done it for a few years. 

Maybe what we have is actually the best compromise? We have a handful of large, highly competitive fleets and also smaller ones for those who want to massage their egos. Most fleets sit in the middle but a number of classes are seeing a resurgence. Most importantly for me, and key looking 20 or so years ahead, you can say in the UK we have boats suitable for any water, that can be sailed by anyone. And a handicap system that works more often than it doesn't for more than half of the classes in the system.

Beyond hoping natural selection carries on with the classes coming in I cant see a lot wrong with what we do.

50% of my sailing is just pottering or blasting up and down and all of the sailors at my holiday club are similar. Sailing is a holiday pastime for them, some don't race at all and I'm the only one who races elsewhere. That said we can get 25-30 boats out on a race day so we must be doing something right.

ditto - some of the best sailing.  We even carried it on at University - well I did until my N12 sank (for the first time) in the Tyne.  It met a watery end in Abersoch the following summer.

Mad wind, Bahia and a GP14, I am in the safety boat filming (not driving it ) You could barely stand , racing abandoned.