Sailjuice reducing interest in events
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13909
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 7:00am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Sailjuice reducing interest in events
Posted By: Olderun
Subject: Sailjuice reducing interest in events
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 10:17am
As a longtime competitor in the Sailjuice series I am reflecting on my waning interest in it.
This is not cost related or anything to do with the competitors but I used to have more interest in doing the Silver Salvers (Dash) or Tiger Trophy or Brass Monkey etc.
I have been guilty of following my series result rather than getting everything, social and sailing out of the event. It seems they are losing the individual celebration of what they are over what the series organisers are trying to achieve.
I also have a niggling resentment over paying extra for next to useless tracking with highly inaccurate speeds being purported as the next big thing when in fact their origins are Chinese curfew tags. Also the advanced distant pre booking with little hope of a refund should circumstances change doesnt make it any better.
Clubs need to be reimbursed for their efforts not the hangers on as it appears to me.
I am certain I will have stats thrown at me re participation growth but is that potentially contrary now to what the stand alone event would achieve.
Now the clincher. At the Brass Monkey, a great event, the Phantom and the Punt couldnt win in their favoured conditions. I will just leave that out there.
|
Replies:
Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 11:22am
Regarding the Brass Monkey, is it not just the case that the RS400 can be sailed to its handicap in most conditions, and yesterday one turned up brimming with talent? Put it another way, if the same sailors had all been sent out in identical boats I wouldn't have bet against the event winners!
For me the big shame was to see just 36 boats starting the event, from an already hugely disappointing entry of just 50. Was it just bad timing with everything else going on in the world, or has the Sailjuice format run its day?
Be interesting to see what happens at the other excellent Northern winter handicap event next weekend, Blackpool and Fleetwood's Eskimo pursuit. Will £100 prize money be more of an attraction than Sailjuice Glory?
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by Olderun
As a longtime competitor in the Sailjuice series I am reflecting on my waning interest in it.
|
Of 221 entrants who finished a race, only 57 did more than one race, and 28 more than two, with just 8 doing 5, so I think we can largely acquit the event of reducing interest in individual events.
As for the Phantom and Punt not winning in their preferred conditions, perhaps they just didn't put in a good enough performance on the day? There's an awful lot more to winning a major event than just getting the right conditions, and handicaps make far less difference than people think.
The trouble I have with evaluating the success of a handicap system is how do you know what the 'right' result is?
|
Posted By: Olderun
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 1:31pm
Yes I agree about their performance on the day and I wouldn't suggest the 400 didn't deserve it. Those two boats and their crews have handicaps which would be well to their detriment in spicier conditions. The two crews also have a track record for all to see.
I couldn't think of a better example of how things are swayed against them if they did perform to their usual standards which I believe they did. The 400 however has a far broader range of conditions to perform to its handicap as well as courses to suit.
I accept handicaps can't cover everything but would suggest the scope they are being applied to are too broad and may deter people.
For the first time in my life I am a full advocate of fleet racing as some of these results seems demeaning to others and totally worthless.
I think its gone too far and the series as a whole has lost any credibility.
As for the Great British sailing challenge that became farcical almost in its first year which brings me back to the point ,are they created as competitions or a useful means for those other than the Clubs to create revenue?
|
Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Olderun
As a longtime competitor in the Sailjuice series I am reflecting on my waning interest in it.
|
Hi Olderun
It would be great to have a more detailed discussion over your Sailjuice concerns, perhaps you could email contact details info@sailracer.co.uk
The last couple of years have been challenging for many people, and for those involved in event organisation a tough period.
I look forward to hearing from you
Simon
-------------
http://www.sailracer.org" rel="nofollow - www.sailracer.org
Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management
|
Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 4:32pm
|
The obvious reason why neither the Norfolk Punt nor the Phantom did well at the Brass Monkey is that they were both designed in Norfolk/Suffolk. Perfect for on the flat, but hopeless in the mountains.
|
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 5:24pm
|
Definitely a Broads birthright with biggish rigs to catch wind over the reedbeds.
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by Olderun
are they created as competitions or a useful means for those other than the Clubs to create revenue? |
Mostly simply out of enthusiasm I think. I've talked to them a bit and the people behind Sailjuice had a vision they thought would make for more fun for competitors. I'm not sure I altogether buy into their vision, but I think enthusiasm for it was mostly what was behind it.
I suppose the biggest criticism I'd have comes with the numbers above. As can be seen from the numbers above, it can be argued that the national series thing offers most for the front of the fleet and those who are already committed to lots of travel, but to my mind we need to be doing most to boost the middle and tail end of the fleet where the obvious rewards of competing are smaller, and is where growth comes from. I guess the tracking maybe adds something to that, I don't know.
|
Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by Olderun
As a longtime competitor in the Sailjuice series I am reflecting on my waning interest in it.
|
Of 221 entrants who finished a race, only 57 did more than one race, and 28 more than two, with just 8 doing 5, so I think we can largely acquit the event of reducing interest in individual events.
|
With four events cancelled during the 2021/22 SailJuice Winter Series it is difficult to make comparisons to previous winters
-------------
http://www.sailracer.org" rel="nofollow - www.sailracer.org
Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management
|
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 6:11pm
|
A National series travelling over the days of shortest daylight and sailing in the coldest weather is an undertaking for the dedicated few.
|
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by Do Different
A National series travelling over the days of shortest daylight and sailing in the coldest weather is an undertaking for the dedicated few. |
Back in the day, events like the Pompey PErisher and the Bloody Mary had a real niche, because s many clubs did little in the winter, there was a big vacuum with no class opens. Now there is much more club and class racing 12 months of the year and many more Winter events. The only time I did the Draycote Silver Salver event, it was an invitation event, 2 boats per class? It snowed and that was about a decade before I bought my first drysuit. These days, you've got to grab the opportunities and weather when they line up for you. But I'm not sure who actually wants the tracking and the Sailjuice hype?
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey
With four events cancelled during the 2021/22 SailJuice Winter Series it is difficult to make comparisons to previous winters |
Fair point. So I just looked up 19/20. From 551 who scored points in at least one event (of seven) two did all 7, four more 6, 33 4 or more, 72 three, and 145 two, so I think it holds that people don't appear to be put off doing one or two events they fancy by the existence of a series. As I recall back when I was doing these events, long before Sailjuice, I usually did about 3 or 4.
|
Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by eric_c
Originally posted by Do Different
A National series travelling over the days of shortest daylight and sailing in the coldest weather is an undertaking for the dedicated few. |
Back in the day, events like the Pompey PErisher and the Bloody Mary had a real niche, because s many clubs did little in the winter, there was a big vacuum with no class opens. Now there is much more club and class racing 12 months of the year and many more Winter events. The only time I did the Draycote Silver Salver event, it was an invitation event, 2 boats per class? It snowed and that was about a decade before I bought my first drysuit. These days, you've got to grab the opportunities and weather when they line up for you. But I'm not sure who actually wants the tracking and the Sailjuice hype?
|
The trackers help with the scoring, when you have 150 boats doing average laps, with number of laps ranging from 3 to 5 it can be quite a challenge for those counting laps from a cold committee boats to keep tabs on things. The trackers give a lap count and time to cross the line, which can be compared to the manual scoring sheets.
-------------
http://www.sailracer.org" rel="nofollow - www.sailracer.org
Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey
...quite a challenge for those counting laps from a cold committee boats to keep tabs on things. The trackers give a lap count and time to cross the line, which can be compared to the manual scoring sheets. |
Can think of a few occasions when I could have done with that!
|
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 9:15pm
|
But we all know that tracking is being promoted as far more than an aid to the race committee, and to inply otherwise would be basically dishonest. Mostly, it's fairly dull for the viewer and the competitor ends up footing the bill. A lot of tracking 'data' auto-barfed onto a webste is not much substitute for actual reporting of an event. as the quantity of 'information' on the web increases, the quality falls through the floor.
|
Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 10:05pm
Was planning a lot in 20/21 but that didn’t happen, each event I entered then got cancelled. Two day events don’t have that much appeal in the depth of winter, so booked for Grafham GP and Bloody Mary 22, both of which were cancelled again, what luck!
Bloody Mary has a huge appeal but now our club runs January-March racing almost every Sunday that is easier.
-------------
3513, 3551 - National 12
136069 - Laser
32541 - Mirror
4501 - Laser 4000
|
Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 9:48am
|
I dont have anything against the winter sailjuice series because they havent (to the best of my knowledge) changed the format of the existing events, however I am not convinced by the GB Sailing Challenge series of summer events. I know of at least one where Sailjuice seems to have have inflicted their format over a very good established event and has made that particular event worse in my humble opinion. It seems like this club has sold out to Sailjuice and the event has lost its appeal to me.
These series are good for clubs trying to establish new events but I cannot see they offer much to the established events, in fact in my example it has actually harmed the existing event.
|
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 17 Mar 22 at 11:33am
Personally I have been a keen participant in the Winter Series over the years and this year sailed four of the six events that went ahead and would have done more if they had not been cancelled. I really enjoy them and learn a great deal from each event; its handicap racing so the result will always be a mess and frankly I rarely look at how I did (just looked and see I finished 19th overall in the series) but instead I set myself a goal depending on the conditions like beat all the boats in Class X or be on the same leg and person Y. Over the years I have many of my best mates that I see at these events and its great banter on and off the water. Personally I do not do the Summer series at all as I go to H2 events instead as class racing is always going to be better than handicrap. To the OPs original question - suspect that the Brass Monkey was not well attended as it was rescheduled to be later than normal and we are now in the class racing season - I was at a class event in Weymouth racing other H2s for example.
-------------
H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082
|
|