Exoneration for hitting a mark
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13785
Printed Date: 24 Jun 25 at 5:58pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Exoneration for hitting a mark
Posted By: Henmch
Subject: Exoneration for hitting a mark
Date Posted: 18 May 21 at 10:32am
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Can someone clarify the rule regarding exoneration for hitting a mark please. The situation involved5 dinghies approaching a leeward mark in very light wind. All on the same gybe. It would be necessary to gybe around the mark for the next leg. The inside boat ( which happened to be me) established an overlap on the other boats well before and into the zone and advised the other boats of this! At the mark there wasn’t enough room for me and I ended up hitting the mark and having to fend off the next inside boat to prevent damage. As I clearly wasn’t given enough room would I be exonerated for hitting the mark under rule 43 1 b Or would I still have to do a penalty turn?
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Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 May 21 at 1:17pm
| No turn required from you. Trust you didn't forget to hail protest. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 May 21 at 2:09pm
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It's a doddle that not having to reround the mark turns exoneration, especially in dodgy tide, you just have to bear off and get your nose just enough round it so it scrapes down the side in tide and happily do your spin as you get carried off down tide whilst those in pursuit spit feathers trying to out pace the tide to even round it.
Not entirely the penalty it used to be.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 18 May 21 at 7:59pm
Would deliberately breaking a rule and gaining an advantage from it not constitute a breach of rule 2?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 May 21 at 8:02pm
I guess it might if anyone you were racing new what that rule was... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 May 21 at 8:40pm
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Is it not a question of going for it and taking the penalty if you get it wrong? I raced Raceboards for many years and the standard of rule observance was dire. It seemed pointless doing turns unless the threat of protest was there as you knew nobody else was going to bother. Now I'm back in dinghies where rule observance is significantly better I do turns without being asked if I know I'm in the wrong but if it's debatable and nobody shouts I'll sail on ('cos that's what everybody else does). ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 18 May 21 at 8:51pm
It would also be really hard for the PC to collect any evidence that it was deliberate and not a "miss-judgement" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 May 21 at 9:23pm
So it doesn't matter whether its a misjudgement or not, a turn isn't good enough if you get an advantage like that, you are required to retire. No need to invoke RRS2. |
Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 18 May 21 at 9:55pm
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Interesting considering the theoretical situation. If you did misjudge it, how do you not gain an advantage? Deliberately slow down to offset any advantage gained plus the turn? Of course if they wen't round bragging of doing it deliberately then you could invoke rule 2? But without admission then it is almost always going to be 44.1b? The other part would be interpreting it as significant. Where do you draw the line? 1 boat length gained or 10? Nothing I can see in the case book refers to the ambiguity in this regard either
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Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 18 May 21 at 10:14pm
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• In the last race of a series, in very strong adverse current, Roger and Carla are nearly even as they approach the final windward mark. Both are barely able to make positive progress over the ground against the current, and both are barely fetching the mark. Roger manages to round the mark without tacking but, as he rounds, he hits it and it rolls down his leeward side. He takes a One-Turn Penalty while being swept towards the next mark by the current. Carla tacks twice to avoid touching the mark. After she finally rounds, Roger is well ahead of her and he goes on to win the series by one point over Carla. taken from sailingworld.com/how-to/situations-when-judgment-required/ The article even addresses the issue of lack of cases/appeals around the "significant advantage" aspect. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 May 21 at 10:12am
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What's more irritating up until last year I think it was, I was busy re-rounding as some at our club still do. We tell them of course.. er after they've re-rounded. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 May 21 at 2:04pm
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Save the planet, get rid of the touching mark rule, will save a ton of paper and ink, not forgetting the stress to new racers, bad feelings, disputes etc ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 19 May 21 at 3:13pm
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Allowing people to hit Marks is bad practice and can encourage cheating and damage . thats why the 200 fleet have gone back to not allowing people to hit Marks.. ------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 May 21 at 5:02pm
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If you are allowed to push past the mark, how can it encourage cheating?
Imagine a beginner in their first race, wind verging on to strong for them, they touch the mark, then someone tells them they have to do a 360. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 May 21 at 5:10pm
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And now race round admiralty buoys... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 19 May 21 at 10:05pm
How do you get the sailors to tread water in one place? And what about equal opportunity? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 May 21 at 10:16pm
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IMHO it doesn't matter either way, I've raced dinghies and windsurfers, the latter allow touching marks, the former (which I race now and did from 12-18 years old) don't. Beginners are unlikely to be at the front so won't affect the serious racers if they hit a mark so I'd say keep the rules as they are but don't shout at beginners to do turns in breezy conditions if they hit a mark. We need to encourage beginners to get out there and race. After the race is the time to tell them that touching a mark would normally result in penalty turns but that in the early stages of learning to race just getting round the course is an achievement in itself. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 May 21 at 7:33pm
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Someone is still going to tell them they shouldn't have touched the mark, really they should have taken a penalty turn, so then they lose the I got round good feeling, rules worthy of requiring a Barrister to implement have no place in most clubs, there needs to be a 'Club edition'. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 May 21 at 7:57pm
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Why is is any harder for the rule to be "don't hit the mark", than "you can hit the mark, but only on the side which means you've been round it"?
There are many confusing rules in sailing. I can't see how this is one of them. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: deadrock
Date Posted: 20 May 21 at 9:24pm
| Prada Cup final: Race 5, not hitting a mark, but penalties for gaining an advantage from breaking a rule. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 May 21 at 9:25pm
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That's my point, the whole set of rules, but, even in these few posts on two pages, have four specific references to sections of the rules which apply to touching the mark. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 May 21 at 9:48pm
My club offer a hazard tape streamer to tie to the end of the boom to newbie racers. They ain't gonna trouble the top half of the fleet (except maybe when they are being lapped  ). If it's not too windy then they should know and abide by the 'simplified rules' (i.e. Port/Starboard, Windward/Leeward and 'Don't Hit Marks') and know the penalties and be able to perform them but, on a windy day, let the sails flap for 10 secs would be an adequate substitute and far less likely to result in a capsize.------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 May 21 at 12:59pm
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Lot of logic for having penalty 'stop sailing, sheet out' timed exoneration, 5 secs, 10 secs etc, not that it would do much to hinder the tidal mark rounding scenario, the only justice for that remains re-round in my view, but hey, what do I know? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 May 21 at 1:31pm
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Rerounding was problematic with large crowded fleets and big boats.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 May 21 at 2:35pm
I'm not suggesting it as an alternative to 360/720 turns just as a way of allowing noob club racers a way of taking a penalty that wouldn't result in a certain capsize, and just while they are in the early stages of learning to race. Where you are club racing in a big tide maybe a re-rounding penalty would be fair, not sure if the rules allow it but you could do it at club level if all could agree. FWIW a re-rounding effectively involves one gybe and one tack and ends with the boat sailing in the same direction so doesn't it fulfil the requirements of Rule 44 as long as the boat doing the turn keeps clear of other boats? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 23 May 21 at 8:54am
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Lot of logic for having penalty 'stop sailing, sheet out' timed exoneration, 5 secs, 10 secs etc
The difficulty there, in most situations is who checks the 5 or 10 sec, and how loose the sheets are? It might work with judges around, but in normal use the the margins would get tested. Whereas a turn is a turn. I remember a club race a few years back that coincided with rememberance day. The agreement was that we would all let our sheets go for the 1 min silence. As you may imagine different boats had some very different ideas of what 1 minute was! ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Oct 21 at 10:31am
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Just resurrecting this thread as I have a supplementary question. If you are forced Ito hitting a mark, inform of your intention to protest and don't do a 360 can you subsequently withdraw the protest? Or can you be exonerated in the water (as was suggested to me after the event, I believe this to be wrong)? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 20 Oct 21 at 11:07am
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You don't have a protest to withdraw until you deliver an allegation in writing to the race office (Definition: Protest).
Once you do deliver your written protest it requires the protest committee to allow it to be withdrawn (rule 63.1). But you don't need to do anything about protesting if you don't want to. When the conditions of rule 43.1 apply you are exonerated by the rule. You do not need a protest committee to exonerate you. This was the whole point of changing "shall be exonerated" to "is exonerated" in the 2021 rewrite. And rule 43.2 provides A boat exonerated for breaking a rule need not take a penalty and shall not be penalized for breaking that rule. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Oct 21 at 2:05pm
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Thanks Brass, I'd say that is a sensible revision and nice to know the guy who told me was right and I was wrong to doubt. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Oct 21 at 2:51pm
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Does that mean that I don't have to hail "Protest" or would not doing so leave me open to being protested for not doing turns? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Oct 21 at 4:03pm
| Whether you have hailed or not is theoretically immaterial. However if there is a protest, and it hangs on whether or not you were given room to get round the mark without contact, I imagine having hailed will do no harm at all. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Oct 21 at 4:16pm
Yes understood  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 20 Oct 21 at 8:46pm
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As far as the rules go, if the conditions apply you are exonerated and you don't have to do anything about protesting. But there are a few other factors.
Firstly, another boat has broken a rule, and probably deserves to be penalized, but is very unlikely to take her turns if you don't hail protest. Secondly, if you later decide it was a dick move and you want to take the other boat to the room, by not hailing protest you've given up that option. Thirdly, by hailing protest, you're indicating to boats around you that you think another boat broke a rule, and that may deter them from protesting you for the mark touch. |