Boats graded by ease of use?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13778
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 4:32am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Boats graded by ease of use?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Boats graded by ease of use?
Date Posted: 26 Apr 21 at 3:39pm
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If you had to list the following single handers purely for ease of use.
How would you order them? MPS RS300 Contender D1 RS100 Phantom H2/Hadron Blaze OK Laser D0 Aero Supersofa Solo Solution Streaker Lightning 368 Europe Feel free to add ones I've missed, asking for a friend  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Apr 21 at 5:13pm
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Topper and Optimist, both very easy. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 26 Apr 21 at 5:58pm
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International Canoe, not as hard as people think. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 26 Apr 21 at 8:12pm
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Contender. Big enough to laze about it when it's light and none of that hard work hiking when it's not.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Apr 21 at 8:20pm
| Most of them are probably pretty much the same. |
Posted By: yottiemad
Date Posted: 26 Apr 21 at 8:50pm
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As the list but swap the OK and Europe positions.
For ease of sail hard chines are easier. ------------- YOTTIEMAD |
Posted By: Ian99
Date Posted: 26 Apr 21 at 9:28pm
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If 'ease of use' is along the lines of how easily anyone who's just been on a learn to sail course would find it, the Europe is far too far down. With a boom so low you hit your knees on rather than your head, I wouldn't describe that as easy to use. The Aero is also more difficult than you'd expect from looking at it given how wobbly it is due to being so light. I'd move the Blaze somewhere down near the Solo as it's much better mannered than you'd expect for something with wings, and move the Laser to a similar position. Other than the token effort at a rudder, the Laser is really a pretty easy thing to sail about in, albeit not to Olympic standard.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 6:52am
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I’d argue that a Hadron H2 is easier to sail than a Solo, no bumped heads, incredibly forgiving downwind and easy to right after a capsize. It is all down to who the list is aimed at. A lot of good sailors in Aeros seem to get into difficult situations. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 7:40am
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What do you mean by ease of use? Do you mean easy to rig and cart around the slipway or easy to sail or forgiving to sail or what? Surely the list will be very subjective depending on your skill, experience, fitness and expectation from the sport? ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 7:55am
Yes but the chines can also bite the water unexpectedly and give you a surprise swim. A bit like windsurfers catching a rail. I dare say that most hiking una-rigged singlehanders are similar in difficulty to sail. Most can be cruised easy enough without too much drama if need be, are hard to race to the max but all have their quirks to catch you out as well. ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 8:13am
I know Graeme’s list was adult classes but of course the Topper used to be open to adults too. There is much to commend the Topper - the robust hull, the easy transport and stowage, the carabiner clips for rigging, the stability of the scow bow, the furlable sail, the rudder lifting mechanism, the low freeboard for easy capsize recovery etc etc. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 9:00am
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In terms of overall ease of use (not just on the water) the Laser should get bumped down by having to drop the mast every time or capsize the boat on shore to stop knackering the sail. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 9:58am
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the laser also has a tendency to death-roll very easily which will catch out beginners very quickly. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 10:13am
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Move the Europe up the list a bit because of short lengthand low boom, but mostly the ease of use will depend on how well you bend which parts of the body are knackered.
Bung the Minisail in pretty near the bottom, too. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 11:24am
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I apologise if it appears I'd listed them in any order, I hadn't it just came into my head in that approx order and I haven't actually sailed an H2 I was more interested in other folks views who had perhaps sailed them.
I think it would be useful to folk coming into the sport if such a list were defined, so we don't lose folk like the couple at our club who were reccommended an RS200 as a first boat straight off the sailing course, they bought it, had the sort of nightmare you might expect and haven't been heard of since. There is no actual information, probably nobody dares for fear of offending classes or commerce, obviously doesn't effect me, I have no ad revenue, nor run or work for a Governing body so nothing to lose by compiling such a list, but.. It can't be just my opinion, I'm small and light and my experience will differ from someone tall and heavy, so it needs to be a list compiled by individuals of differing weights and abilitys ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 11:55am
OK here's a first try, cut, pasted re-ordered and minsail and topper added, Easiest first. Topper Minisail Lightning 368 Streaker Supersofa Europe Laser OK Solo Solution D0 Aero Phantom H2/Hadron Blaze Contender D1 RS100 Canoe (without kite) is this still a thing? RS300 Int Canoe (with kite) MPS Other boats: British Moth are they still around ? By Around I mean can you go out and buy one as a newcomer having just completed a sailing course. Don't hesitate to disagree, my experience is obviously coastal on the sea, but the lake is tiny, so these things perform differently on big water like Grafham (I did sail the Aero and D0 on Grafham but not in a lot of wind and when we consider ease of use I think that should be right up to force four to five bft which is why imv the 300 and MPS become tricky and although I've seen a well sailed Int Canoe go round the Isle of Sheppey like a dose of salts, I wouldn't want the job. Oh and boats I've not sailed so am guessing. OK H2/Hadron, Lightning 368, Europe, IC. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 1:03pm
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The H2 is harder for me to put in the mix, we had a chap show up a few years back at a Nationals with a demo boat. He was well in his 70's and never sailed a H2 before, it blew F3 to F5 for three days and he raced and finished all the races - mostly last - but he finished and did not die. He knew how to sail and had been a good racer in his day but my point is that it is a forgiving boat if you are not interested in winning. I would not however suggest it to a beginner!! Based on experience racing against Aero's I think they are a lot less forgiving and tippy at a breezy gybe mark as compared to a H2. ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 1:18pm
Hmm, I think you may be right, our resident Aero rider has taken to spells of inversion which I find surprising as he's young and quite handy should the Aero move down or the H2 up a bit? I really must try and get a go in one someday. Oh and where should we put a Finn? another one I've missed. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 1:21pm
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Revision 2
Topper Minisail Lightning 368 Streaker Supersofa Europe Laser OK Finn? Solo Solution Phantom H2/Hadron D0 Aero Blaze Contender D1 RS100 Canoe (without kite) is this still a thing? RS300 Int Canoe (with kite) MPS ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 1:50pm
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the lightning is harder than a streaker. The rig is very far forward and can make it tippy downwind. The streaker is mere pussycat. Solo is easier than an OK & Finn, as is the solution I think. Phantom is easier than a Finn too. I would hazard the H2 is easier than the Phantom. I think he D0 is easier than the Phantom as is the Aero generally. The RS300 is easier than a contender as you sit on it. I could easily jump in a D1 and sail it...using the spinny made it bit more interesting, so perhaps easier to just sail than a contender too. Canoe without a kite - yes it is still a thing, in fact it is the spinny boat that is not a thing now. The nospinny boat is faster following a rule change to drop the weight (I think). My list would therefore be
sorry I did the list like that but the formatting messed up for me
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 2:00pm
| Yes, the latest kite free canoes are not only lighter but also thinner, so less easy than they were a few years ago, but the real b*****ds must have been Canoes in wooden mast days. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 2:03pm
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What about the 'Weta' supposed to be a doddle? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 2:06pm
Thanks, that's a help, I wonder about flipping the RS100 with the D1, I only really sailed the D1 in lightish conditions but it felt a bit more stable than the RS100 and if you're big enough to sail it, reckon you'd probably have an easier time. Edit oh jesus look what the damn formatting has done now, this software is so past its sell by date. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 2:08pm
Did anyone buy one? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 2:17pm
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If the main purpose is to steer beginners clear of unsuitable boats you could grade them with a number, say 1-5, with Topper being a 1 and Musto/300/Foiling Moth a 5. Anything with a trap or kite is going to be a 4 or 5, small rigs on non radical hulls (Radial, Europe, 368, Solo, etc) a 1 or 2, big rigs like Blaze and Phantom have to be a 3, Blaze, for example, is not a beginners boat but is doable for somebody with a few basic skills if they pick their weather and don't mind the odd swim.
There are exceptions though, a couple of guys at our club went from a course straight into an RS400 and are progressing nicely. Good idea for a thread BTW
 ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 3:36pm
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Rating boats 1 - 5 is probably not enough categories.
If you start at 1 (Topper) and go to 10 (Foiling Moth)that might give you: Moth - 10 Canoe - 9 600, 300, 700, Musto - 8 Contender -7 Phantom, Finn,D1 -6 Laser, OK, H2, Supernova, DO, Aero (?), Blaze - 5 Solo, Europe, Lightning, Radial- 4 Streaker, -3 4.7 - 2 Topper - 1 Or something ? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 3:58pm
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I think you should rate the 4.7, Radial and Laser the same because for the appropriate sized person they are equivalent boats. Ease of use is not solely (or much) about size or how powered up you are so much as waterline beam, affordability, difficulty launching, maintenance requirements etc.
The Neo looks a good bet to me, but I’ve not sailed one. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 4:06pm
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Maybe but I think we are just trying to give a beginner/improver/intermediate/expert/elite rating for somebody thinking of buying a boat. We are probably addressing only the first three ability levels as good sailors will be able to make their own mind up. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 4:06pm
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I'd put the Aero on a 6 (not because I am biased which clearly I am to the D-Zero) purely because when you chuck it in it is a pain in the backside to right and get back in to. It usually flips back over on top of you unless you are very lucky. Most of our local Aeros know if they bin it then it is race over time unless they can get on the board and get back in as it comes up (and hope it doesn't flip). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 5:42pm
Really??? Not my experience or observation of other Aeros at all.. |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 5:57pm
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Useful exercise, Sprint Kayaks are rated for stability. 1-10, 10 being the most stable. Swimming is not fast. ------------- Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74. |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 7:06pm
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Interesting if you rated them on ease of recovery from capsize, helped a fair few sailors unable to get into a Solo and an OK. IC one design is a joy to recover, boat low, seat a big help and very low freeboard. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 7:53pm
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.[/QUOTE]
Other boats: British Moth are they still around ? By Around I mean can you go out and buy one as a newcomer having just completed a sailing course. [/QUOTE] They are still around and you could go out and buy one as a newcomer. Overall they slot in and around the lightning skill wise. In most conditions it’s a little easier to sail well than the lightning , but in really windy conditions it’s short length, scow shape ,and high aspect rig make it more of a handful. The comet should also be at the easier end of the list but it’s a reality it’s a hard boat to sail well and in heavy weather it’s just a pig and only real good sailors can control them .
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 8:14pm
Tend to agree 1-10 seems sensible as does consideration being given to righting and return to sailing after capsize, I recall for instance the RS100 being far worse at that than say the MPS for example which suggests two columns. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 8:23pm
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So many variables. In a strong wind a Radial is far easier than a Lightning. As is a Solo. In light winds a Topper is painful. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 27 Apr 21 at 10:06pm
I must have a strange skill set as I always found a Lightning a lot easier to sail in strong winds than a Radial 
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 6:04am
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I suppose we had better mention 'Topaz', most new adult sized trainees will have probably sailed one. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 6:37am
Whole world of different training boats which really don't need to be rated alongside a Contender. This list is already comparing apples and pears, why throw in a Mango, too? (The Mango was part of the Escape range of dinghies in the 90s) ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 6:55am
lets not forget the Sea Snark. ;-) Arguably the most ease of use boat ;-) (PY if it ever had one would be in the multi-thousands
 ) |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 7:44am
Mine and plenty of others Chris but we can agree to differ. My own experience of an Aero capsize was not pleasant and I was aware of the difficulties already so had done some prep work on the technique. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 7:52am
Once owned a Super Snark. Very relaxing to sail. Still have the lateen rig, but the hull disintegrated. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 8:29am
| [QUOTE=jeffers] [QUOTE=Chri |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 9:05am
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Where this whole thing goes wrong is not encouraging people to do some crewing with other people for a bit. They will learn a lot more far quicker than just buying a boat and possibly being put off. ------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: Alistair426
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 9:40am
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Perhaps there ought to be an asterisk against all of those classes that require full weight kneeling (not necessarily the single-buttock perch of the Laser) at any point of sailing, in any conditions? For a significant number of would be sailors, particularly those of 'mature years', that might be a total deal-breaker.
....and I agree with Gordon about crewing first to 'learn the ropes' with a safe pair of hands.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 11:37am
Is it a washing up bowl? This is a racing list, not a dishwashers compendium.
And is it a single hander? If we manage to finish this, we should move on to the perhaps more difficult task of rating double handers, most of whom I'd put (other than the RS200) as easier than most single handers but very difficult to call say the difference between a 505 and a Merlin or Fireball or Osprey. I'll go and look up Topaz now.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 11:59am
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Topaz is available in any spec, including a three sail trapeze two hander, called a tres'.
Everyone knows 'Enterprise' is best two hander. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 2:04pm
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That Topaz is a crock.. More vacation centre dross guaranteed to provide an innoculation against ever sailing again if excitement is what you're after.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 5:58pm
Totally agree , for once lol . I sailed one on a sun sail holiday once, it was vile . If it had been my first time in a dinghy , it would have definitely been my last .
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 6:58pm
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Tried the Topaz Tres in the 90s originally, and other types since.In theory, the Tres a 12' 90 sqfoot sail area boat, just like a Firefly, but with added trap and spinnaker. In reality it is a soft, under powered, uncomfortable, heavy lump. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 7:50pm
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Not forgetting another classic 'Laser Pico' ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 8:39pm
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Now, the Pico is a classic! Very clever design. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 8:56pm
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Too much snobbery around plastic boats. Owned a carbon IC and a Vision at the same time, both good tools for jobs I wanted them todo.
------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 9:03pm
Sorry David I could not disagree more. I know two people who have bought a H2 new and sold it almost straight away because they couldn't sail it. Maybe not as hard as a 300 but not far off depending on what attributes you're looking for
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 28 Apr 21 at 9:35pm
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^ have sailed a Hadron H2 in extremely windy and gusty conditions, I found it to be incredibly stable off wind, I went down the mine and the bow popped up. Capsized while beating ... easy peasy to get upright. Nice high boom, no banged head and not trapped the wrong side in the tacks. If I had any complaint it was that I found the rig to be quite brutal, but this might have been resolved if I had understood how to de power with the forestay (and if the demo boat had been calibrated). Don’t get me wrong, the Solo remains my weapon of choice because of the size of the one design fleets. The point really is that what is an easy boat for an experienced dinghy sailor might be a mare for a novice. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 5:22am
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^ One of these people wasn't a novice by any means - but he was/is in his 70's. The boat was sold to him as a "retiring merlin sailor" as he was struggling to find a crew. He just accepted he wasn't going to get out every week and brought another merlin! Ive sailed one in zero wind. I found it hard to sail within the rule 42 but cant comment beyond that.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 6:08am
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I found the 'Hartley' plastic boats to be a lot better than previous plastic boats, 'Hartley 15' was a delight to sail, very surprising, mind, compared to the 'Bahia' fleet we have, nothing could be worse. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 6:31am
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Only issue I had with the Hartley 15 was that the "dip" in the moulding and the mainsheet seemed too far aft. Lots of space for passengers, and I felt like a chauffeur. Otherwise, a step up from the other large rotomoulds. The slightly smaller Argo seems OK, too.
But none of them need to be on a list like this, even for double handers. Edit - maybe I'm wrong. My beginner race trsining has 2 regular Picos, 2 Zests and a Q'ba regularly involved. All would slot in at the bottom end happily alongside the Topper. Still hate the Topaz though! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 1:12pm
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I think this is a really good and useful idea. Is the number to be decided by discussion and concencus? Like provisional PY, I can see that allowing a class or builder to set the number has some flaws. And of course there will be superstars who can sail a 10 boat whilst doing the crossword. And beginners who after an extended swim will think their #1 should be 8 Well done IGRF!
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 1:38pm
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you may not like the Topaz, but if you've hardly sailed anything else it'll do the job fine. I know of a couple being sailed and the helms thoroughly enjoy them and can manage them well. Yes once you've tried something else you'll realise they ain't that good but of course they should be on the list as they are easy to sail....just at the bottom of it ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 1:49pm
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Topaz is good at what it does, we have at least 5 at our costal club, all sailed by newish sailors, ranging from early teens to adults. The adults mostly sail singlehanded but whatever they're all having a ball in them. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 3:54pm
Simple question, are they racing them? Or just tooling about. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 4:13pm
Not sure why that is relevant, if they’re out on the water under sail that’s good enough. Non racers still do duties and contribute subs. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 4:27pm
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Presumably a foiling Moth and a Waszp should head the list? How about a separate exercise, grading each class according to how difficult it is to win at national level events, factoring in the size and quality of different fleets. The Moth and MPS would still head the list but the Laser, Finn, Aero and Solo would move up.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 5:15pm
The Anglesey club is not a serious racing club so mostly just tooling about but they do all race half a dozen times in the year. As tink says they are enjoying their sailing. FWIW two of them learned together in a very old 420 over the last couple of years and bought a Topaz each last summer, another has an old GP and a Topaz, another is a very keen teenager. My Blaze buddy taught himself to sail dinghies in the his Topaz after years windsurfing (it now belongs to a mate of his son) so Topaz's have served well for our newbies. And, as I said up thread, when it's blowing the dogs off chains two adults can have an absolute hoot in a Topaz.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 5:18pm
I think the issue is that competing at national events are some keen people working for sail and boat suppliers. I think a rating of how the boat sails in the hands of us " normal" people is more relevant
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 5:26pm
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I can vaguely remember a dinghy with a gauge round the bottom of the mast, the gauge was influenced by the wind direction and the boats direction, it supposedly had a indicator that you matched your boom to, think it was one of the 'Escape' range. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 6:04pm
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We have a Topaz called Rhubarb n' Custard. Yellow hull and virulent pink sail. It is much better with two onboard. Problem is lots of volume from the dagger forwards. Also the centre main means most single handed sailors sit way too far back.The result is a bow up trim, loosing 2ft off the waterline length.
The solution singlehanded to windward is to sit in front of the centremain. Long extension needed and forward for straps. Simply best to sail with two in a blow. ------------- Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Apr 21 at 6:04pm
I had assumed the OP was interested in how competent a newbie/improver needed to be to sail some of those classes without the steepness of the learning curve putting them off dinghy sailing but something more all encompassing would certainly be worthwhile. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 6:34am
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Topaz, generated a number of positive posts, what number should we give it, Topper number one, Topaz number three? What would fit in number two? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: chris_wht
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 11:19am
extreme example, but it kind of shows how situation dependant this whole debate is - in that i'd rather gybe my moth in 25knots than probably any of the other boats mentioned in your quote. ------------- |
Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 11:52am
Several factors help the RS Aero gybe more easily; - The light weight hull and rig allow ease of acceleration, which softens the force of the sail refilling - The flex of the unstayed carbon top mast softens the force of the sail refilling - Having all the falls of the mainsheet central mean you can grab them all together to throw the boom over decisively with a direct 1:1 pull, so it comes across when you are ready and saves steering through a larger angle (which would then give more capsize effect as the sail refills). - The central mainsheet avoids it catching on anything at the rear as the boom comes across - The higher boom allows more room to cross the boat easily and safely,
with less worry of a banged head. In the less likely event that you do
bang your head the boom is rounded, light carbon and without sharp
fittings. - The clear cockpit enables an easy route unhindered route across the boat There will be sailors of lower ability and still developing their technique who may struggle depending on their ambition to progress, as in any class, and this will be more evident at local club level. That is the challenge that leads to reward. Here are some simple 'How to...' vids with notes; - See the 'Gybing without Steering' throw of the mainsheet technique here as Top Tip #2; https://youtu.be/dL5zGiHeRBQ?t=100" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/dL5zGiHeRBQ?t=100 - Extreme RS Aero gybing in strong wind and waves covering various issues & considerations in just 4 minutes here; http://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=forum&fid=13&tid=9287" rel="nofollow - https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=forum&fid=13&tid=9287 - RS Aero 9 strong wind gybes, 11 gybe sequence;
https://www.facebook.com/627586382/videos/10156951444976383/" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/627586382/videos/10156951444976383/ |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 12:06pm
OK where am I going in all this? I'm about to try mission impossible and encourage new folk straight out of the box/or tablet onto our lake and take up racing sailboats. I'm not interested in teaching them to sail, the idea is to come up with a new marketing approach to sell the sport along the lines of 3 D chess afloat in which you also just happen to learn to drive the things. I also intend if I ever get the time to come up with some sort of 'paper' selling the rest of the world on the concept of that Handicap Racing Organisation which hopefully, again time and finance appropriate to build a website, have the necessary dial in features, regrade the boats on the list and run it in parallel to the messed up bollox that is presented to folk at the moment. Maybe I'll manage it, maybe I won't I'm pretty damn busy at the moment, but ti would be cool to try and right all the f**ked up ness that stops new boats being presented, new comers having half a chance of buying something that suits them, rather than suits the status quo. We had another changing room discussion last night at the absurdity of the PY situation particularly with the Laser and I found some agreement with the logic that it should at the very least be static and makes a logical point about which to rotate, but that's another conversation for another thread. But for now, please don't stop coming up with the info you have been, it'll help me get at least a starter list out so I can give newcomers a bit of information about the world hopefully they are about to enter. (I'm going to try and get a good boat guide together for them) If the damn kitefoilers can leave me alone for a bit. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 3:17pm
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Good idea, especially the 'good boat guide'. It seems to me that the important thing is to classify boats that may be suitable for new racers, not regarding ease of going fast but simply by how easy they are to get around the course upright. Then sub categories for inland and open water. Boats like the MPS, foiling moth and RS300/600 don't even need to be on the list except to be red flagged as only a competent sailor is going to get more than 100 yards off the beach and he/she is already invested in sailing as a pastime. Presumably you're targeting RYA sailing school graduates and 'taught myself' types who have the basics down but need some impetus to make the step to racing. To that end I'd be bigging up the benefits of the PN system* and publishing a simplified version of the racing rules (green/red tape on the boom to assist the basic RoW rules). At my home club we offer newbie racers a red/white tape streamer to tie to the end of the boom so experienced sailors can cut them a little slack in rule observance. * We know it's not perfect but, as you say that's a different discussion. Any handicap system will allow different boats to race against each other with a reasonable degree of fairness, that is all newbs really need to know.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 3:21pm
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Nope the plan is to just teach them ourselves, no RYA, no ticket same way we all learned and yes for now we have to use the bloody PY but suggest maybe a band of the sort of boat that race well together scratch, first thing is get new blood on the water, any way we can we've been pretty f**ked by Covid, Fishermen and massive price hike. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 4:37pm
Anything within 50 points (and probably more) will work.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 5:35pm
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I think this would be very useful. To make it clearer what ‘ease’ refers to I’d break it down into factors that can be scored individually and add up to a total score, factors that spring to mind could be;
Mobility on land (weight on wheels/ awkward shape) Ease of launch Ease of recovery Upwind stability Down wind stability Static stability (between race etc) Complexity of controls Boom height Sheet load Capsize recovery Rigging time I’m sure there are more but this could make the definition clearer. |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 5:41pm
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RS do something similar for their range of boats. Not quite as much detail as E.J suggest, but perhaps the RS circle/segments paradigm could be used as such Example:- http://www.rssailing.com/project/rs-zest/" rel="nofollow - https://www.rssailing.com/project/rs-zest/
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 5:45pm
Yeah, that’s what I would have said, called a spider chart easy to do in excel, numbers, google sheets etc ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 5:46pm
Your idea of a table of ease of use is a good one and sshould be persued. Though mission to me is very flawed and I suspect based on your hatred of the RYA which may be clouding some judgement here. Also, the world is very different to 50yrs ago to when we started sailing. Peoples perceptions are different and chucking them in a boat and tell them to go racing without teaching them the basics is, to my mind, doomed to failure. I appreciate the intention, though not the execution
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Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 5:52pm
There is a danger that the current discussions on ranking of each capability are just individual views. There needs to be some science behind it - some measurable metric - else its all just subjective
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Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 6:12pm
| I think it would be difficult to make it fully scientific , some of the factors would hard to measure beyond experience , but as a guide does it need to be this clinical? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 6:22pm
It's not a question of 'hatred' of the RYA, it's a question of expedience, our lake club, once an official RYA training centre, has been decimated to the point we don't have the necessary RYA qualified people to even teach sailing, which quite frankly we all know is not that difficult. Or we do nothing and die as an entity. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 6:26pm
I am an RYA Dinghy Instructor and available ;-) (needs a Senior Instructor in order to facilitate courses) There are plenty of others out there like me. Your view of the RYA is well documented ...... ;-)
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Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 6:32pm
Maybe not, but it needs some credibility behind it. Y&Y forum members views are ..... errrmmmm ... not necessarily representative of the sailing community ... being a microscopic fraction of it ;-)
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 6:43pm
I am an RYA Dinghy Instructor and available ;-) (needs a Senior Instructor in order to facilitate courses) There are plenty of others out there like me. Your view of the RYA is well documented ...... ;-) [/QUOTE]
Which is exactly why they are irrelevant and like the way they effectively killed off windsurf training are now doing the same again. If you really want newcomers, either teach them yourself Or forget it. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 6:52pm
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Graham/Graeme? (I looked you up on the interweb) - A word to the wise. Your well documented gripe with the RYA is ancient history. It happened aeons ago and life has moved on, they have moved on,. They are not perfect, but not the picture you paint. Work with them, not against them. The monkey on your back is your self-inflicted burden, not theirs.Remove the monkey and move on. Back on topic. As I say, Your idea of the Ease of Use grading is a good one. Use your energy in that positive direction. (positive comment to you) |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 6:53pm
| Nice to have the old GRF back . |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 6:53pm
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There are a number of DIs and SIs on here, boat designers/builders, championship winners, Windsurfers and people with decades of experience, I am sure they could assign a number to single handers to denote ease of use for novices. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:08pm
iGRF is wrong about his opinions on Lasers, keep looking at our results and result wise they are peppered through the fleet. A better way of getting people on the water outside the RYA however has legs, Often the clubs best sailors won’t mind taking out for a newbie for a couple of hours but are never going to jump through all the RYAs hoops: first aid, safeguarding, skills test before even doing the training. Mid fleet sailor but never made it to do my DI due to RYA - ‘difficulties’ - being polite. Obviously in today’s world basic risk assessments needs to be covered. Society however is more interested in getting ‘badges’ which is where the RYA comes in. Perhaps it’s a bigger question as to if a club gets a benefit from being or affiliated or if offering ‘club certification’ is more lucrative with increased membership fees ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:16pm
Sadly, this is not down to the RYA requisites, but down to UK-wide legislation. Not their fault. I remember the days when I did my first DI certificate at aged 20 something, I could hold the tiller of an out-of-control student, or go in to the ladies changing room to gee them up etc. Now that is verbotten. And this is the same in a working environment. Now you have to be the full 9-yards DBS checked if you teach children or vulnerable adults. So all the RYA requisites are just what everyone else requires - not just the RYA. FGS - give them some slack. It aint their fault. |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:19pm
| And my above post means, to iGRF, that teaching kids especially at your club without RYA certification and possible DBS checks would simply be asking your local council to come down on you like a ton of bricks. This is not the 1970's anymore. Even if you are very well intentioned, as I know you are |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:28pm
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Ex teacher so get the whole child protection issue but having spent to long on here that’s not where iGRFs interests lie. A route to get adults into sailing or back into sailing in a simple way has to be beneficial for all. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:30pm
| Waterline beam is probably the biggest single factor in making a boat stable. It seems to me it would be straightforward to specify this in cm for each boat e.g Laser (100), Solo (110), Moth (30) or what ever. I think SUPs are rated like this? It’s a quantifiable but simple guide to the relative usability of different designs. |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:32pm
Being devils advocate for a moment - where is the study that says there is a market for getting adults in to sailing compared to getting children in to sailing? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:35pm
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Dunno about studies, but spending every Saturday doing just that. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:41pm
Good man.  Be interested in your experiences of how they progressed.But again, without qualified instructors, there is a raft of legislation, and accusations you can find your self facing as a club.
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:45pm
Have and continue to be active in children’s sailing and this is something as a sport we do well however like iGRF I believe we are missing an opportunity if we don’t find and easy route for adults to return or engage in sailing. Not saying forget the kids at all ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:46pm
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I have never advocated teaching kids, complete waste of time. Never has there been enough effort by any Governing body at targeting adults, why, because funding is easier to achieve by targeting kids.
Tomorrow we have a little Agm of the remaining members if there are a dozen of us I'll be surprised, so desperate times need desperate measure, my thinking was to attempt a little local ad/marketing campaign targeting mature empty nesters. Actually aim at older folk with more time on their hands(and disposable income) who may have missed opportunities to learn to do what we do. Obviously I'm blinded by my own enthusiasm and can't understand why anyone wouldn't want to do something that not only exercises their body but the mind as well, but there are so so many obstacles and frankly they need short circuiting. So no kids, just senior grown ups who might still remember the freedom to do what the f**k we liked in the seventies without some overbearing authority wanting to wipe our backsides for us. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:46pm
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Absolutely. I use a mix of DI and AI even though I'm not running courses. Partly because of legislation (we are a RTC) but mostly because I want a solid background. My instructors have to think on their feet, as groups are mixed ability and it can't be done by rote, so I pick who I use carefully. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 30 Apr 21 at 7:49pm
I genuinely wish you the best of luck, but I truly believe that the opportunity is very small, and the hoops to go through to protect you and your club vastly outweigh your good intentions. I need to step away from the pooter ;-)
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