Has anyone got any views on this?

I am a white man who is nearly 60 so I had to google what woke means. Basically it means you are anti fascist, anti sexist and anti racist . 

That means I happy to be woke and I would hope most right minded people would want to be the same. 

+1

Well said.

Yes, I have some views. Perhaps the irony regarding the tone of your post eludes you. Your post highlights the very reason why the RYA are doing what they are doing. 

As we come out of the COVID crisis our governing body should be helping clubs to get back to where they were before it started rather than putting out yet more hoops for clubs to jump through in order to tick boxes for the next lot of funding or the RDOs next promotion.

If they did the former they would probably tick all the diversity boxes anyway so why make yet more work for volunteers?

Incidentally my children define “woke” simply that there is no need to be unpleasant and cause offence to people,  sometimes this is hard to do and we fail, but imo this is not a bad ethos.

* Obviously when AGMs return and attendance is require to exercise your vote that issue would be solved.

Originally posted by Wetabix If your sailing club or affiliated class is affiliated to the RYA you are now committed to mixing your sailing with active participation in the aims of the current crop of equality fanatics.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying..... Would need an example to understand this sentence.

Originally posted by Wetabix You may go up to anyone in your club who has a bigger boat than yours and demand to be allowed to sail it.

I'm going to go ahead and just assume this isn't true.  No one with a privately owned boat is under any obligation to let anyone else sail it.  

However, I could believe that the rya would encourage clubs to do their own try-a-boat days to give opportunities for new members to try a range of boats with the help of willing boat owning volunteers.  

Originally posted by Wetabix In some Olympic classes you may not race unless accompanied by a woman.

Were you also aware that you may not race some other olympic classes unless accompanied by a man!  Why on earth the 49er isn't a designated olympic singlehander I'm sure infuriates us all.  If you're a man wanting to sail a 49er at the olympics, you have literally no choice, you have to sail with another man.  

Originally posted by Wetabix In Scotland this person may be a man identifying as a woman.

And then you'll HAVE to be accompanied by them when you start your olympic campaign next year???  Not quite sure what your problem is here.  

Originally posted by Wetabix If the kids from the local tinker camp want to go for a sail you must oblige them (done that).

Yes, if clubs want to not be a non-profit and not pay tax on all those membership fees, if they want access to RYA resources and support and if they want to be eligible for a range of rather large sports grants, yes you have to do something for the sport.  My sailing club has for years taken groups from local schools sailing, completely free to the schools and it has been considered a great success and something the club is very proud of.  I don't think a single member sees it as a negative.  

So....

Final summary -  People have got quite peeved off by your post but I just find it so confusing.  Each bit I read, I just think "Is this a problem?  Why is this a problem?  I'm being thick, the problem is here somewhere..... what is it?!"  

However, I have a solution!  This sounds like a generational thing and a lack of adapting to world as it moves on.  So, can I recommend to help smooth the transition to the current world, try listening to some k-pop.  Mamamoo is a great place to start.  If you're really ambitious you could try Super Junior but it might be a bit much to start with.  

I am a member of an inner city club. We had our first female commodore in the 1980s. We have had members of all shapes forms and colours since i joined in the mid 1990s. I don't actually see that this is a cause for celebration, because it should be normal.

What I object to is being told that being just open to anyone (And having proof that this is the case going back decades) isn't good enough. I'm not sure if its RYA doctrine or local council pressure (Probably a bit of both) but we are now it seems obliged to be seen to positively discriminate in our membership recruitment because we happen to sit in a part of the city that has a high percentage of people of a certain ethnic background.

This is wrong. It wastes hours of volunteer time (We have held specific open days targeted at that audience in addition to our normal open days) working to provide taster sessions to people who are never going to become part of the club. The accusation from the outside is exactly what many people who have previously posted in this thread have made against the OP, but this is simply not the case - it isn't the clubs fault if the local populace within 3 miles of the pond don't like sailing!

With due respect to our countryside and coastal members you may not be seeing this just yet, and if 50 year out of date attitudes are still in the fore it may be a good thing to start to change. But there will come a point where you have to start to push back.

So, the OP may be wrong. He may have put his point across badly. But I can see why he did it.

Paramedic.  I think this is something different.  You're coming from a position of citing frustrations and concerns of having put the effort in, seeing it go nowhere, and then feeling criticised for supposedly not being open enough.  

I think it would do well for people from to RYA to have a chat with your club and understand measures that have been tried, local area information and frustrations.  

I think quite frankly anyone would want to have those conversations with you to gain a better understanding.  

If forced into a position (and I'd rather not be) then I would have say I'm on the listening and respectful side of the sliding scale, I consciously make an effort to be considerate of others, sadly I sometimes fail terribly but that's life I suppose.

Those that insist it's a binary, divided "war" have been manipulated into that position by unscrupulous politicians with a supporting press who spread and exploit fear.

Covid isn't helping either. Stress generally tends to make populations less considerate of  others, it promotes self interest. Totally understandable but still unfortunate.

To your point, there is nothing wrong in some form of positive discrimination in order to redress the balance. You gotta start somewhere. I dont know the rules you are obliged by (and why) at your inner city club and maybe that needs some discussion at committe level (if not already done). Clearly, for some people and for some ethnic groups, sailing isnt ever going to be for them. But in either case, you shouldnt force it though it can be encouraged.

WRT dinghy sailing being elitist, IMHO nothing could be further from the truth*, the problem is that, to a large percentage of the non-sailing population, dinghy sailing is elitist. 

* Club membership is not expensive at most grass roots clubs, most have boats that can be borrowed by members and serviceable old boats can be bought for little more than a tank of fuel (and much less than the cost of a new iPhone).

The thing is what actually is it they we are supposed to do?

Short of abducting people off the street, sticking them in a boat and sailing them round for an hour I cant really see what we can do. The open days that we did seemed to me to be very forced and almost patronising. I'm absolutely 100% certain that they were done with the best of intentions but what did we achieve other than ticking a box? Nothing.

This is why I don't like positive discrimination used in this manner (Or actually at all).

Now the youth and junior system at the club with no pushing whatsoever is very diverse, but for some reason this hasn't been (I need to stop using present tense as things are obviously very different to how they were 12 months ago) seen as good enough either. Maybe we need to do a better job of pushing that it happens?

At the moment it's a case of getting through this crisis and back to where you were before it started.

If you can get close to that you have something to build from. 

The name "Royal Yachting Association" smacks of elitism. I would guess most ethnic minorities would view this as a White Elitist organisation. Following the interview with Megan I would likely include the word racist (not necessarily my perception but likely to be the perception of minorities now). The hierarchy in most clubs smacks of the old days of white imperialism, titles like Commodores, Rear Commodores, Bosun etc.

Most in the sport of sailing are not ready for these kinds of considerations. Being white middle class I can cope with it but if the sport wants to be more diverse, it's the perceptions of the wider, more diverse population that have to be  considered. Image is everything.

It would be nice to leave the elitism for the races, try and reduce it everywhere else but that ain't going to happen IMO

It's a bit like saying we must get 50% ethnic minorities sailing even though only around 15% of the population belongs to an ethnic minority in the UK?

Could you possibly point me at the specific paragraph that says this please? My boat is quite small and I'd like to take advantage of this splendid idea.

The latter is the one that is part of the barriers to people coming into the sport. As said previous the RYA's actual title doesn't help - Royal and Yachting. Two things that scream elitism unfortunately. People think of yachts as big boats for the rich and wealthy. That will put them off straightaway. 

Further to that is the perceived cost. You need a boat, all the gear, etc, etc, etc. This is expensive. You may not think so but to a hefty portion of the country it really is. 

Everyone says their club is friendly and welcoming, but it is? Think of being a new person to the sport, coming through a gate, often large and protected by barbed wire to deter thieves, to somewhere down a dark lane to find someone who may or may not say hello. Intimidating to a lot. Just getting them through the gate to meet someone is difficult enough. But that is just one of the challenges, but one of the most important, at least if they are there you can talk to them and make them welcome. At the moment you feel like you must have to make an appointment, no just walking in off the street. Another barrier.

The only way the sport can prosper is to bring new people into it as there is always a turnover. Our club is concentrating on training and working at trying to retain the kids that come and those adults too. It is fairly successful but it does fall on a team of volunteers that must be at their limit of what they can do. I don't know how you can overcome that issue. But yes introducing youths and middle-aged is possibly the only way to keep going.

Provide lockers and the like or encourage people to lock their valuables in their cars. Or have keypads on changing room doors. Leaving stuff in a changing room is asking for trouble unfortunately. 

If we want people to join in we need to make the approach to clubs easier. People are reluctant to join in if there are any barriers to do so. Its far easier to make an excuse not to do something than to do it. 

Perhaps we need to get the RYA to start advertising family friendly things in non sailing places more. I don't know what they do currently as things like facebook algorithms are skewed to the individual so I see them regularly but thats cos I follow a lot of sailing stuff on there. I'm they must do something. Retro is in, so why not go for the swallow/amazons route with a modern twist? 

It is an anthropological reality that we are all programmed to be tribal. All perceptions from every group are clouded by a tribal view. I suggest that there is a majority in the non white/male/middle class/ tribe who view the sailing tribe as one they absolutely have no interest in joining.

Obviously I'm struggling to name an example because being a white country dweller I know little of other ethnic groups.  I don't know, say, are Reggae clubs wringing hands because they attract very few white teenagers?

I wasn't saying tribalism is a good thing, simply a reality which has to be acknowledged and overcome.

I think that pretty sums up my club, I wouldn't say we have ever had loads of non-white members but we certainly have never "noticed" those web have had. This is why I found the so called "diversity" days so patronising.

Well said 

 exactly, although it seems some people want their particular  sport /. hobby/ pastime to remain solely for 'people like them ' ( Pale , Male, Stale )  

first  two of those characteristics they can;t do much about , but  the staleness is  100 % a choice 

Understanding something is nothing like justifying something but it is a step towards countering.

exactly !

Little or much we see it here quite often. There was a bloke who always signed off something like "the only real racing is Merlins or Solos" how often do we see "Losers" for Lasers? "PY racing is for noddy classes"

I've experienced it at my club where a quite classic racing class is popular, I sail a class of very similar spec but with much smaller numbers, "Ah, when you get a proper boat". I like what I like and simply get on but interestingly they are still very happy for me to OOD / RO when we host their travellers.  

I was using the word rationalisation in it's true sense.

If I can give my brief and potted take on prejudice, I have a bit of time:

Humans have the ability to learn dogma. It's a mostly useful ability and is sometimes called rote learning.  A good example would be the times tables which we can quote without thinking and with absolute certainty, learnt from repetition and reinforced with encouragement from teachers. Another form of rote learning would be "don't cross the road without looking and listening", it gets repeated endlessly when we are kids until it finally sticks and becomes an automatic response. In this last example we have learned to pre judge roads as dangerous places, we have applied prejudice and possibly saved our lives.

These are constructive examples of how humans save time in  critical situations, how to make split second decisions with instant automatic responses.

All very useful and it serves the human race well in most instances. The problem arises when we are fed dogma that isn't useful and we then apply prejudice destructively.

This is learnt behaviour and therefore can be unlearnt given a bit of thought and willingness.

Here's the bit that can F**k the willingness to unlearn up:

Humans also have a need to "belong".  We are much better able to survive and thrive in a group. Evolution has imposed this need.  Groups are likely to have more skills than an individual.

There is a need for harmony in these groups otherwise they can become dangerous (ones own sensitivity to fear may make us more or less social)  Humans have developed a whole range of unspoken rules and abilities to get along, one of these abilities can be called Confluence (in some circles), it's mostly an unconscious response, the need to go with the flow, we will adopt common attitudes and behaviour in order to maintain harmony. Better still we will seek out groups that have attitudes that mirror our own. We will be inclined to defend the group also. Whether these attitudes are constructive or destructive is up for debate? Most of this stuff goes on beneath the radar, is unconscious and can be called institutionalised.

In brief:
Pre judging is mostly constructive but quite often isn't. It's learned and can be unlearnt.
The very powerful human need to belong may bugger up and override the desire to un-learn.
There's loads of stuff missing above.
woke? 

Totally agree with all of the above . 

exactly 

Many years ago I was at a court case and the chief superintendent of Devon and Cornwall and we were having a chat in a break. He was explaining that he had just had ethic quota's imposed on his force. And that he was unable to fill the quota from his area as there were so few ethnic minority's in the county's so literally had to import people that fitted his quota. What I hate about these type of documents is your ethnic makeup of the community in say Leeds is going to be somewhat different to say Clacton, so forcing a club to go and find x number of this race or sex will be over subscribed in one area and the other will never succeed and likely be penalized for non compliance. LTSC is about the whitest demographic area you could want to find and yet they do great work with Scaramouche sailing trust. In this day and age does anyone care what color or sex you are apart from the media ?

You see I don't like this.

1) What do you do if people who match this criteria (I loathe the term BAME, I think its borderline racist in itself and will be banned in ten years time) do not want to do the job? Are the people imposing this aware that in some parts of the world the role of a police officer is around or lower than the social standing of the people who clean out your toilet? Roadsweepers and bin men do a vital job, but if one of your children expressed an ambition to be one I don't think you'd be too happy, and family pressure plays a huge role in eastern and southern Asian culture. Thats not going to change, at least not overnight.

2) How many potentially very good officers are you turning away because of religion, skin colour or where their ancestors originate? Isn't this precisely what this "process" is trying to avoid? Are we saying that we actually don't want the very best candidates possible policing our streets?

3) Applied to sailing there is the saying that you can take the horse to water but you cant force it to drink. We can offer opportunities, but if ANYONE doesn't want to continue we cant force them to.

Positive discrimination is applied by only the most ignorant people. They have seen that certain people don't "do" something and decide that they must do it and it must be "our" fault that they do not. They don't look into the reasons why they don't do it and not being interested isn't an acceptable excuse.

That would have been a good headline a couple of days ago 

This is NOT the definition of Positive Discrimination and you have twisted the scenario to suit your narrative. I dont know why we want to tear down the initiative the RYA has set itself. A peculairly British habit ...

I wasn't aware that the MET police were setting the RYA targets. Please read the post again - I know that the formatting doesn't help.

However I dont agree with positive discrimination and I do see it as a trap we don't particularly want to fall into because 1) Its wrong and 2) it wastes hours and hours of volunteer time. 

Volunteer time is a precious resource.

I have spent years and years working in the public sector and have seen positive discrimination at its worst.

So you disagreed with the positive discrimation in recent VOR's to have a % of women crew and then these amazing women went on to better things, something that would not have happened otherwise? The path to the top for some, and even entry to sport itself, sometimes needs a push and a positive effort on  our part

Its all about equal opportunities. People can take opportunities or pass up on them as they see fit, but we should strive where possible to have equal opportunities.

By way of an example back when I was studying there were maybe 5 - 10% women on the engineering courses at my university, Nav Arch being no different. Maybe its more equal today. Engineering has and probably still has something of a blokey image. Unlike childbirth or average size and strength, there is no reason why a woman would be more or less capable at engineering, all things being equal. Its mostly maths and physics and judgement. I think.

Imagine my suprise when later in life I travel to Norway where it seems that every other Nav Arch is a nice Lady. Is the culture different in secondary education? Are there more or better role models? Is engineering "marketed" better to girls in Scandinavia? Why different? I don't think there can be any other reason behind it.

I abhor quota filling and targets as a way to "acheieve" equality but the other way i.e. building or changing culture, opportunities, good role models etc takes time and effort.

By the same token, and it goes back to the quote filling  - I think its simplistic and condascending to think that all humans of all ethnicities genders and persuasions should like all leisure pursuits in equal proportion.

I don't know but I doubt there are gender quotas in Holland, it would suggest the British culture is way behind and as a result missing out badly.

Funnily enough it is hard to explain as a social class failing. Through my teenage years and into my twenties I was pretty immersed in horses and ponies. I hasten to add I'm far from a toff, simply a rural kid who began mucking out stables for pocket money. Anyone could be forgiven for thinking the horsey scene to be very "old school" but as far as I ever saw it was completely gender blind.  

I would suggest that at least part of the issue with equality of sexes and race are driven by a lack of expectation and are generational, I know of people who were discouraged from going to grammar school or university by their parents because it is “not what we do”, education is the best opportunity to break out of racial and gender stereotyping in my opinion.  

The same could be said to be said of sports such as sailing, many children get involved in sailing and other sports to improve their personal statements for university, and others take on sports such as sailing through university.  

Not saying this is the complete picture but it is part.

Looking at a couple of other outdoor activities (I'm also not so sure we should keep calling sailing a sport) the growth from an outsiders (mine) point of view is it the non competitive areas. Park runs are expressly not races although people obviously do set personal goals. Cycling has been growing for a while and went mad this last 12 months, I doubt many of the new participants are going straight into racing.

Please post this on page 1.

Exactly. Sailing doesn't have a discrimination problem it has a group polarisation problem. In clubs (and particularly on Y&Y) people assume 'sailing' and 'serious racing in privately owned boats' are interchangeable.

Bet that many people looking to learn to sail have some hope of it providing freedom and adventure. When they meet with the reality - the weekly drift round the same pond in disparate boats while the results are worked out by an arcane formula that everyone moans about - they quite rationally decide to go elsewhere.

This is as much part of the 'alternatives to sailing clubs' thread. Clubs are important, but maybe covid is a chance to reset and retreat from the narrow conception of the sport that presently exists.  

Club sailing definitely is wedded to racing... I've sailed dinghies since I was 11 and raced since I was 12, I'm also a long time windsurfer, taught myself to windsurf at 29, first raced at 30 and raced regularly until I started sailing dinghies again at 55. The point is that you don't need to join a club to do either but if you want to race then joining a club is undoubtedly the easiest route into that aspect of the sport.

Sailing, other than racing*, does not need any outside organisation you just take the boat to somewhere you can launch it and off you go so no need to join a club (and very few benefits to you if you do other than access to the water in some cases.