Topper Colours
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13651
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 9:52am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Topper Colours
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Topper Colours
Date Posted: 09 Aug 20 at 8:34am
| Does anyone know why you can only buy red Toppers and red/white/blue sails these days? To reduce costs maybe? Seems such a shame. |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Aug 20 at 9:20am
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Not enough being built to justify the cost of different batches, I guess. Or squaddies all wanting to blend in?
Agree, a shame, especially sails, which could still be different. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 09 Aug 20 at 12:00pm
bit of both i suspect -how many toppers are they selling new these days ? (ironically their durability may actually count against them ) , much the same as the very light grey laser had in the 90s , and once plain radial sails were available |
Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 09 Aug 20 at 4:52pm
| I had a yellow one back in the 80's, I suspect 15141 has been consigned to the abandoned corner of boat park somewhere. |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 09 Aug 20 at 5:48pm
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Colourfull is out these days. Everything seems so corporate, dull Grey's, blacks, gone are the days of florescent pink kit. ------------- Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Aug 20 at 7:18pm
| I would gladly pay (a bit) more to get some colour into a new Topper, or even just the sail. |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 09 Aug 20 at 7:28pm
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Purging two 1000 ton injection moulding machines will not be cheap plus purchasing and inventory management everyone wins with a standard colour. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Aug 20 at 7:40pm
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Yet they used to manage - and they used to sell more. At the very least, a different colour sail would cost less than £50 more, being very generous, to make in different colours. 1000 tons?! Not the weight of the machines surely?
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 09 Aug 20 at 8:07pm
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1000 tones is the clamping pressure of the injection moulding machine. I have designed a plastic parts requiring a few £M of tooling so come with a little knowledge (my ex boss in the team that developed the Topper tooling) . Perhaps if you had two colours you would get cost increase of somewhere north of £50. Increase the number of colours and the increase will skyrocket. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Aug 20 at 8:26pm
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I have heard stories of very odd patterned decks from when they used to change colours. Whether true or apocryphal I have no idea.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Aug 20 at 8:34pm
Makes you wonder how anyone affords a Hobie sail ;)
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Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 10 Aug 20 at 2:31pm
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I had a yellow one and a couple of blue ones ... they also used to do limited editions in odd colours like tope and grey ... so it can't be that big a deal changing colours. Also - it used to be class rules that the 3 middle panels on the sail had to be coloured; now they are all white ... Shame to turn it into a one colour only class. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Aug 20 at 4:02pm
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I liked the stripy sails, just a nod to it now. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 10 Aug 20 at 4:50pm
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As a counter poise, the Tera Pro is styled to look like an adult dinghy. If you’re going to increase the cost of the Topper there are probably more appropriate and appealing ways than striped sails. Also roto moulded dinghies are generally the same colour and it costs nothing to change the colour of them compared to an injection moulding (not sure many people here understand what an injection moulding machine is) ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Aug 20 at 4:57pm
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Still a couple of pink boats at my club, one recently sold. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 10 Aug 20 at 8:20pm
I understand what an IJ machine is; the Topper was the largest ever injection molded panel at the time ... very innovative. The mold cost a fortune. The used to change colours frequently so why not now?
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Aug 20 at 8:26pm
Plenty of adult dinghies had stripy sails when the Topper did. In fact, theTopper was as much adult dinghy as kids' boat. As the fun went out of beach boats as they became racing machines, so the colours became a bit boring - or grown up - or less uncool - depending upon viewpoint. Note less uncool. Windsurfing was cool, kite fooling, cool. Uncool will still be there when cool has moved on. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10 Aug 20 at 9:18pm
| Not many white windsurfer sails. |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 11 Aug 20 at 5:35am
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Most of the new Toppers sold will be at the more serious end of the fleet and I doubt one single new purchase has been lost due to hull colour choice. So rather than add cost for no benefit for their customers the actual racing kit has been upgraded and a Topper offers a highly competitive package in a decreasing and competitive market. The change of colour is not quick and easy, lost production, multiple part need producing to purge the old colour (these can be recycled but not easily back into Toppers but a lower grade product) inventory control of the plastic, I doubt they master batch so a silo for each colour, storage of the different colour hulls which is uncontrollable do to customer demands - the list of hassle goes on and on. Standardisation brings benefits for everyone. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Aug 20 at 9:24am
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Hmmm, seems arrogant to suggest that there is no customer benefit to offering them choice. The cost of different coloured sails is trivial and could be a costed option. Hulls, granted, may be more hassle than it’s worth but it used to happen and they’ve always been cheap. If the majority of buyers are top end racers then that would explain a big drop off in sails. The topper is the ideal holiday/training/family boat - there will never be more more than 100 or so serious racers but there are countless more below that level for whom £3k is an affordable toy.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Aug 20 at 10:07am
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93 boats u the Topper Nationals 5.3 Gold fleet, plus another 120 in the silver, bronze and 4.2 fleets, thats 223 sailors serious enough to travel to Largs for the event. Changing colour would involve purging the system in an injection moulding machine as the plastic has to be molten before it's injected so there is an additional cost in material and time which does not occur when producing several of the same colour. In a roto-moulding machine the granules are placed directly into the mould so two different colours could follow with no more than a clean (which I assume happens each time anyway). ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 15 Aug 20 at 6:50am
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At the "top end" (where most of the people are buying new) -
Do you want to be the only yellow hull or only blue hull in a fleet that is 90+% red? Protest room; "How sure are you it was sail number 123456 that was on port and not 153426?" "He has a yellow hull" Committee boat: "did you catch the sail number of the OCS boat to BFD?" "It was the blue hull ending 789" |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 Aug 20 at 7:15am
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I hear that argument all the time and I find it bonkers. Maybe in the Olympics, possibly. Though with so few boats and so many cameras even that’s highly doubtful. But in a Topper, really? It’s a fun boat in what is meant to be a fun hobby. 100-200 race at national level and about 20-30 race “seriously”. And what kind of lesson is that to kids - “stay anonymous and you may get away with things”? |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 15 Aug 20 at 7:41am
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Toppers have a 3 digit champ number on the sail so no one is hiding. A considerable number of kids get a lot of fun by sailing competitively ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 15 Aug 20 at 7:44am
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Completely agree A2Z I like racing but certainly not the attitude shown by some. |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 15 Aug 20 at 8:01am
I'd agree - much harder at the olympics to not be recognisable. Tons of Jury boats, TV, etc.
You've never been to a Topper Nationals Protest Hearing then! Some of these guys will be future Olympic hopefuls. They are being trained at age ~12 to compete like olympians.
Ah. You are considering sailing a hobby rather than a sport.
There are 20-30 who might stand a chance of a win. If thats the definition of seriously. Further down the fleet there will remain 'serious' races. Coming 50th might still mean getting a regional squad place. Or it might simply mean beating your arch rival.
The trouble is... if all the others are staying anonymous - you might need to too. Obviously the rules should be followed. The Black Flag is probably the best time to not be identifiable; that may or may not mean cheating. Lets say 10 boats are over on BF with 200 boat start. If the OD can identify all 10, you are BFD. If he can't identify them all he will have to Gen Recall. If he identifies some they will be BFD. Not being identified isn't cheating, its the reality of a race. But lets be realistic. Its those top 20 who are buying a brand new race topper. Those then sell to the rest of the fleet over time. So those 20 set the spec. Also £50 extra for a sail and £50 extra for hull top sides. So £100. Those racers would rather spend that on something that makes the boat sail faster or protects the boat better. Some of those guys will be buying new sails every year or two. Those £50 extras add up. Coloured sails fade quicker. The beach clubs likely said not to do it. The beach clubs wouldn't pay more for coloured hulls. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 Aug 20 at 8:10am
At the clew, so unlikely to be seen on a crowded line... Of course kids enjoy competing, some may also enjoy the chance to personalise the boat - pride of ownership etc.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 Aug 20 at 8:34am
No, but I have sat on a Topper Open Meeting protest committee where a protest was heard after a parent listening in (via radio) to race office comms decided to protest based on what they overheard...
The sport of sailing is a hobby for the vast, vast majority (anyone not trying to make a living from it). I was a Topper squaddie in the 90’s, there were dark blue, light blue, raspberry, red, grey and purple boats at the front of the fleet. Yellow ones always seemed slow... And even more sail colour combos - I always liked the blue, gold & red myself, or the pink, yellow & grey.
That might be the business model for a Finn or a 49er, but wasn’t, shouldn’t be and hopefully still isn’t the case for the Topper. If only top end racers buy new Toppers the class is in trouble - there are many more potential buyers at the bottom of the pyramid or with no intention of racing at all. In this I agree with GRF - it is shortsighted to think that elite money is somehow more valuable. And if you have an older raspberry or pale blue hull the red/white/blue sail clashes horribly! I’d happily pay £50 more to avoid that ;)
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Aug 20 at 10:52am
And to my mind it's also highly morally dubious.
If I'm over the line I deserve to get called by the RC. I'm not going to do anything to make their task more difficult. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 15 Aug 20 at 9:17pm
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I think we're seeing varying interpretations of sport. Jim's and anything within the rules or you get away with. I believe amateur sport is more healthy if it falls under that of Jim and professional sport isn't really sport at all, actually a money making front.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Aug 20 at 9:41pm
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What is the point of winning if you know you cheated (either deliberate or inadvertently)? I do get the idea that if you graze a mark and nobody sees you you might not do your penalty turn simply 'cos nobody else bothers but I've always don the turns if I know I'm in the wrong and still do. If it's not clear cut then go with your conscience and, if the post race discussion says you were in the wrong, then retire. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 6:49am
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I completely agree with all your points.
If I'm OCS I deserve to be called out for it. Mind you, I will be annoyed if someone else is and doesn't get called out. H2's observation about yellow being slower is interesting! We know that's almost certainly not the case. But it doesn't take much to get the message out that yellow are slower, or blue or whatever. And now probably anything other than red is slower... Because it's not new... Same for sails. People start to think one specific version is quicker, more new boats in that version bought. New boats will be quick... I doubt that many new Toppers are being bought by club sailors... |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 6:50am
Parents and their lawyers... 
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Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 7:41am
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I always liked the N12s because in that fleet if you had a plain pale grey hull you'd stick out like a sore thumb. "Which boat was over, RO?" "Oh, it was that boring grey one sandwiched between the lime green one and that pink one with the purple spots". BTW: that whole thing about parents listening on the VHF at Topper opens does happen. I was amazed when I witnessed it first hand. ------------- Europe AUS53 & FF 3615 National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 7:56am
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Absolutely happens all the time. "Line clear" calls usually made on private channel (not hard to find an listen in if you are keen!) Or mobile phone.
I gather if you get in a national squad some private schools give substantial discount on your fees... Which means there is £££ at play. All rather sad. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 11:22am
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Does the Topper have a National squad under the new RYA system?
Anyway, the answer to Topper hull colours appears to be manufacturing costs, and the sails sheer boringness of how people want sails to look these days. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 11:30am
Luckily some classes are still firmly believers in stripes! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 12:46pm
Love know where your evidence is. Most sports scholarships are a small fraction of the fees, usually sub £100. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 1:15pm
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Some colours appear to chip more easily, red Toppers have less damage.
Sales bound to be affected by the refurbs, they look like new boats. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 1:57pm
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Red is the worst colour for fading due to UV and oxidisation. This pretty much applies to any form of red pigment. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 4:26pm
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They still come back to bright red, when they have been heat treated, not sure if they fade by the same rate. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 7:59pm
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The yellow ones that faded to grey were the worst for UV. Visage even wrote a song about it. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 8:45pm
Or rather wonderful that there are schools prepared to give scholarships to sailing athletes! |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 8:51pm
Sorry to single your post out Jim, but it’s the easiest to illustrate that wanting to be anonymous is not about cheating. Not all ROs will General Recall every start where they couldn’t see all the numbers. So not standing out in a yellow boat is about not being the boat that is remembered, among many that are not. Back in the day I had a Fuscia Laser. There were two boats of that colour. We both picked up a black flag....but I got lobbed when he was over, and vice versa. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Aug 20 at 9:29pm
We shall have to agree to disagree. Although I didn't say cheating, I said morally dubious. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 17 Aug 20 at 6:08am
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Seems unfair to penalise a boat on its colour and not being able to see the number, talking about a couple of boats of the same colour not one. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 17 Aug 20 at 7:58am
You quoted cheating! Personally I can not see that it is morally dubious to minimise the chance of being singled out from a group of miscreants by not choosing to have a different hull colour. |
Posted By: salmon80
Date Posted: 18 Aug 20 at 1:58am
I have always had boats which blend in on the startline to avoid being called out as over the line  |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 19 Aug 20 at 9:31am
I think that some of the responses here demonstrate that a win at all costs attitude is alive and well at all levels of the dinghy sailing community. So much for sportsmanship  |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 19 Aug 20 at 9:59am
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No. I don't think that's what's going on. It's not people wanting an invisibility cloak so they can cheat.
It's that people, rightly or wrongly, think a more noticeable boat may be singled out. 20 boats on a start line. 5 are OCS. If all are identical and the PRO can't identify them he either ignores it or gen recalls. A gen recall is not unfair / unsportsmanlike. (If he ignores it, that's unfair on the 15, but isn't the 5 sailors fault) If there is a blue a yellow and a pink with a funny sail he can identify those. If the other two are reds and ahead of them he presumably will gen recall. On a black flag the yellow, blue etc may get punished. They may not even have been over on "go" but get punished. The two reds might get away with it. **That** is unfair. If the two reds were behind them, i.e. barely over the line, wouldn't be the first time a PRO has decided to ignore them. Still unfair. And only possible because the three "different" boats were identifiable. There is no circumstance on the start line where being identifiable is helpful. Being yellow may be helpful or unhelpful in a protest. If you say "123456" hit a mark and didn't do turns. If you think 123456 is red but is yellow, your case is dismissed. It may be more likely that a witness will remember seeing the yellow boat do his turns. If there are only two yellow boats and the other guy says he never did turns, your witness is sound. But, there may be more chance of being protested because when they get ashore someone can work out which boat infringed because it was yellow... Once the top end guys decide to (a) buy red to blend in (b) buy red if it's cheaper (c) invest that money in performance - red gets a reputation for speed. Coloured boats become older, more knackered, sailed by less able sailors... Perpetuating the story. It's not people trying to cheat, it's people trying to be treated equally... |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 19 Aug 20 at 10:50am
| TY polc - you’ve set that out well. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Aug 20 at 12:16pm
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Anyone who picks the colour of their Topper based on reducing the chances of being found OCS is sad indeed. Pick red because you like it, pick red because it’s all that’s available, pick red because it complements your hair, but don’t pick red to be a sheep. Besides, it’s not like Topper ever offered an infinite range of colours - if they offered three sail colours it’s reasonable to assume that each would sell enough to allow identification through sail colour alone to be unreliable. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Aug 20 at 12:21pm
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Topper website saying it is best selling sailboat in the world, I thought they had died off. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Aug 20 at 2:38pm
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Still big, big fleets. But it might say more about how well boats are selling in general. Or the up to dateness of the website. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 19 Aug 20 at 2:42pm
| They sold a huge number into China a couple of years ago. Not just the worlds fleet but lots of big Centres |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Aug 20 at 3:00pm
That's why all the boats are red! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |