Demise of Dinghy Innovation?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13627
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 9:50am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Demise of Dinghy Innovation?
Posted By: turnturtle
Subject: Demise of Dinghy Innovation?
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 4:54pm
|
Has anyone launched (no pun intended) anything of note since the RS Aero in what 2012-ish??? what's the latest 'must have' dinghy? |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 4:59pm
|
The Skeeter.
Or the Maverick from Fusion. Scows rule! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 5:06pm
|
I would like to see a new Minisail design, latest materials, decent Sail, decent foils. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 6:25pm
|
Aero and D-Zero were both launched in 2014. The Aero was light (some argue too light), the D-Zero more refined but not marketed properly. Since then it has all been about foilers.... but foiling doesnt work everywhere (it is a huge amount of fun, even on a cold March day) ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 7:26pm
To my eye they should have spent more time developing the controls and bringing them back to the helm, those fixed cleats to my eye screamed money saving ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 7:26pm
|
The “must have” of the moment could be the new:
Topper Xenon with keel... RS Neo Melges 15 UFO waszp H2 Dash F101 or ILCA 5, 6 & 8 but I think the truth is that it’s the OK. |
Posted By: Peakviper
Date Posted: 21 Jul 20 at 8:36pm
| VX Evo |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 21 Jul 20 at 10:25pm
| Don't think there is any "must have" dinghy at the moment. Yes, might be new designs being put out there. But nothing that is going to persuade many people to part with hard or even non-existent sheckles. At the moment, many peeps just want to go on holiday before their jobs go down the drain. I don't see many existing sailors parting with the boats they already have. Gloomy. yes. realistic, yes. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 9:03am
|
No it's a sad fact they are all flawed in some way or other, only way to get what you want is build it yourself. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 9:27am
|
.......only way to get what you want is build it yourself. What like that 'pedalo crossed with a fishing smack' thing you built .... ?  Seriously though while you can enjoy the process of developing a 'new' boat at any time you would be advised to not to go down the road towards fully productionising anything at the moment. In addition you also have to remember 'it' has to appeal to others as well as yourself if you wish to avoid repeating the failures of, for example, the boards market - As a 'marketing' person that should hopefully be obvious to you and you are unlikely to persuade others in todays climate. As it is currently whatever the failings of current offerings, and I would argue there is pelnty of alternative choices for most, it would only be the 'bravest' of makers who would put serious money into any new boat launch. Perhaps only suited to those with exceedingly deep pockets !
|
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 12:11pm
|
Well the so called 'failure' of the boards market that still outstrips dinghy sales annually and has morphed into other sports, kite, SUP, wing sail and is about to introduce easy access foil sailing to inland water by stealth sometime soon. The board market is alive and well and misreported, given the three large classes that have appeared since 2007. I give you the Kona, the Original Windsurfer alive and well in the southern hemisphere and the recent Windsurfer and Mistral LT, all tearing away everywhere there isn't an RYA crushing them and any attempt to launch something they don't appear to agree with.
Oh and right now? I've just had an all time record month for kite and kiteboard sales and guess what? No RYA involvement in the teaching programme. Oh and a young female UK sailor has just absolutely creamed an Internation competition again and she had absolutely no input from the RYA squad system, just training from the best independant sailing club in the UK. RYA?= Not fit for purpose. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 12:23pm
That 'pedalo crossed with a fishing smack' would have absolutely crushed any of that garbage you pushed upon those poor unsuspecting Blaze/Icon/Hybrid sheeples.. Unless of course they capsized it, then it might have been a tad problematic
 ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 12:38pm
|
I struggle to see much of a space for a new class.
The Aero, like it loathe it or indifferent (like me), has nicely filled the updated moderate performance boat spot, and with three rigs hits most of the sailor weight variations. High performance is dead, there's nothing to go there. Judging by "what boat should I get" questions the only thing approaching a significant hole in the market is "first proper racing singlehander that's also suitable for two handed sailing with partner/kids" and for all the reasons advanced that's a very hard if not impossible design proposition. Innovation ought to be happening in the development classes, but they all have their rules problems that makes them tricky models. The Merlin is rule bound in a very odd (bizarrely successful but still odd) and expensive alley. The N12 is really too small for modern sailors and the rudder foils are a distraction. The I14 and Cherub have gone for the extreme end of the performance spectrum in an age that doesn't appear to be very interested in extreme boats. The Moths are obviously on a path of their own that doesn't involve the mainstream or mainstream budgets, and the International Canoes are also never going to be mass market, and both of them are extreme performance as well. There's never been a successful mainstream development singlehander in the UK, and yet that's where all the interest is at the moment. I'm at a loss for ideas. |
Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 12:49pm
| Does it matter, what developments do you want? It's sailing, find a boat you like and sail it. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 1:44pm
Well yes it does, because after a while you just get fed up and do something else if you can't find what you want.
I often wonder why that is, Is it that there's never been a 'box and sail' rule or motivation to achieve it, or have boats like the Moth just demonstrated what extremities eventually folk will go to? I liked that idea that was being expounded on here a while back around the PY discussions for an 'Open' single hander class with limits at say 420 and 10 sq mtrs racing scratch. But yet again, there's no body of folk, not already tied to a class association that would be invested in the idea of promoting such a class. I've been thinking of 'extending' the Farr 3.7 for example, 420 would better suit my purpose, but the moment I did it, I can go nowhere, it becomes a none class, can't race it with no Yardstick, can't use the old yardstick. Or I'd like a Contender I could lift without getting a hernia, I genuinely tried to get one built, they wont, they are physically constrained by class rules. And people wonder why I say the Class system is constraining dinghy deveopment to basically RS sailing and the odd Insider with a track record like H2 and that is very risky. You see the problem? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 3:18pm
|
Blimey - A raw nerve was
obviously touched there iGRF ! Apologies. My jocular comments were not supposed to sting you at all if that is indeed what has just occurred - I assumed, wrongly it appears, a somewhat thicker skin given previous form on this forum. However I'm still not sure you as an individual will ever 'get what you really want' in a dinghy. Your wish list looks increasingly likely to be the proverbial moving target to me - you might, despite some of your many previous statements to the contrary, be better off channelling those restless energies into a regular development class. N12, M-R, Moth etc would be worth considering for a start. Alternatively why not accept the
simple 'off piste' joys of the 'one-off' ...as occasionally others do as well
|
Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 4:27pm
It is true, with modern rigs the boats can de-power very effectively for light crews, the irony being that the T Foil rudders actually allow more crew weight to be carried, at least on the sea. Can't argue that the combination of my first point and a probably increasing average population weight makes the target market different to what is was in years gone by. Can't beat the sailing experience across all wind angles and all conditions in the N12 though!  ------------- 3513, 3551 - National 12 136069 - Laser 32541 - Mirror 4501 - Laser 4000 |
Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 4:27pm
|
I wonder how many people have considered dinghy sailing, maybe done a RYA course and given up cos they can't find a class that they like? Having said that I would love to have the ability (grade one CSE in Woodwork notwithstanding) to design and build myself a single handed dinghy but would I enjoy sailing my one off more than my aged Europe? Probably not.
|
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 6:05pm
|
Would be interesting to see a shape changing Hull, shape is adjustable to suit single handed or double handed, plus change shape to suit beating, running etc. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 7:09pm
There are internationally box rules that are successful PD racer / OZ goose and Diecipiedi http://www.diecipiedi.it/ns/main/index.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.diecipiedi.it/ns/main/index.html http://www.diecipiedi.it/ns/flotta/catamarani.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.diecipiedi.it/ns/flotta/catamarani.html Unfortunately culturally here in the UK we aren’t interested in a few blokes agreeing a non performance rule and messing about in the garage over night. A box rule with limits the build to 3 sheets of 4mm ply excluding foils, no carbon but as much glass as you like would be fun. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 7:11pm
|
I would love to see a narrow waterline, wide sit out single hander with a boomed self tacking jib ... for personal enjoyment. IMO it is a shame that nobody has really grasped one of the older two man two sail one designs and given it the makeover that Winder/Speed did with the Solo. To be frank, as was posted elsewhere today, keep it simple stupid ... most “improvements” add to the cost, which takes away from the enjoyment of the masses.
------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 7:11pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne_rlswt1B8
|
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 7:16pm
|
I wonder if there were plans for something modern yet hand build, wether it would get much uptake. I mean you could design something say small fireball style wash through unirig, flat panels you could buy and assemble like flat carbon foam sheets, instead of ply, Carbon rig, sail plan available for any builder.
I was surprised the number of Farr37 home builders, that once built as enjoyable to sail as the Farr is/was, lack anything to do with it and a total worthless handicap number so it could never compete and is probably a bit undersize for todays average clinically obese weight levels most of y'all seem to be... 
If you had say a box rule, a sail plan, a set of budgets, could it get off the ground? Probably not ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 7:29pm
| Home building is a very limited enthusiast area IMHO. Times have changed. Instant fix is what its about. |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 7:36pm
|
The OK is having a bit of a renaissance with kit build plywood boats being competitive with FRP off the shelf product. Home build seems to still be deriguer in the Antipodes where it is no longer the case in the UK. The great UK development classes have boxed themselves into a bit of a corner with regard to difficulty of build and complexity, with some notable exceptions. Merlins, 12s, 14s and Moths all had a substantial band of home builders, now this appears to be a daunting proposition if you don’t have quite specialised resources. So I would suggest that any development singlehander would best go down a plywood prepack route. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 7:50pm
|
The big problem I see, is the outrageous rig costs we all get conned into paying. Carbon masts shouldn't be two grand, sails shouldn't be a grand. It's a joke, but there's such a cartel of closed shoppery screwing all and everyone, and no significant volume to leverage better deals. Another fault of the classes not combining. If a few of them bought into a mast style, the prices could be leveraged down. Carbon is cheap these days, but 'they' all live off the past experiences when it was thought of as exotic. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 8:35pm
|
I think the problem with the price of carbon spars is that there there is a performance gain to be had by spending more ... higher modulus carbon allows for lighter and narrower sections, and better detailing costs more. So it is very prone to an arms race. With no disrespect to my learned colleague a typical dinghy mast has more material, more detailing and does not benefit from the volumes that were available in the windsurfing industry ... where I sold a fair few. A bigger problem is that nobody seems to hold stock of carbon masts, in some classes it is harder to get a mast than a boat! ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 8:45pm
I think the days of garage builders in ply are long gone in UK. It would only ever be niche. I know professional engineers who are afraid to change a wheel on a car. My observation is that the antipodeans are very much more boat proud, have more of a have a go attitude regarding that sort of thing than us brits - most UK sailors are middle class working in the tertiary service economy and the cultural precendents for making stuff in one's garage is long since dead, plus the opportunity cost of doing it oneself rather than paying a grubby boatbuilder is too high. And yes all development classes in their own way require skills / knowledge and investment in tooling well beyond even a competant amateur could achieve.
|
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 8:47pm
Exactly there is a fair bit of commonality in the tools (mandrels) but outside the OEM stuff the volumes are too small for even batch building. A 430 windsurf mast is a couple of kg and thousands get made each year. most dinghy masts are double that, have all sorts of brackets and fittings etc and are built in sub cottage volumes. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 10:00pm
|
So design the craft around a windsurfer mast then.. Simples They carry up to 12 mtrs of sail area and work a lot more eficiently than anything I've seen adorning the dross I've owned to date.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 22 Jul 20 at 10:34pm
|
So design the craft around a windsurfer mast then Like the Aero then from what I've heard ?
|
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 5:35am
The UFO was specifically designed to use a windsurfer mast and the Dave Clark copied the Herreshoff wishbone boom to add stiffness and control. If there has been a great development in recent years it is the modern interpretation of that rig. Details of the rig at the bottom with a picture of the Herreshoff original https://www.proboat.com/2017/03/design-brief-peoples-foiler/" rel="nofollow - https://www.proboat.com/2017/03/design-brief-peoples-foiler/ ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 6:14am
How about a scaled up low rider moth (12’ ish), late Axeman or similar, to take 80 to 90kg, able to be made from ply sheets, no standing rigging but using a windsurf mast dropped into a socket, with a sleeved sail.
|
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 7:20am
Because it's a large financial outlay for something that could go out of fashion or become obsolete at any time.
|
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 10:03am
Dinghies all have vastly more righting moment and thus side force thus bending / compressive load thana windsurf application. Only way to make a windsurf mast worked would be in a stayed application with a lot of spreaders like an old ior yacht, which would be more expensive than having the right tube in he first place. Cirrus is right Aero masts are produced in an italian factory which makes windsuf masts for oems, but the aero mast will be 4 to 5kg I think, whereas equivalent windsurf mast is ~2kg maybe, as the aero application is a cantilever with lots of RM compared to a windsurfer. It is on a cylindrical mandrel though, and the factory in question will be efficient at producing tubes of that sort of length in large volumes on cylindrical mandrels.
|
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 10:48am
The development of the OK kit boats is an interesting twist that makes home built a bit more workable for the average modern person and I'm sure the method could be applied to other designs, new or existing. The main plus point is that there is almost zero wood cutting to be done. You send the CNC files to a laser cutting shop and they do the millimeter accurate cutting of all the ply panels and the jig to build it in. It then all comes together as a flat pack, building the accurate jig first and then the boat inside it. No messy stitch and glue - just epoxy fillets that most people can handle. Dan Leech who did the OK kit reckons about 60hours build time for the average person and you get a boat as fast as any other in the world and painted no-one would know it's not plastic. Have a look at http://www.leechboats.com/sail/leech-ok-dinghy" rel="nofollow - http://www.leechboats.com/sail/leech-ok-dinghy ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |
Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 10:57am
|
I would certainly agree that there's more home building, conversion and repair going on down here in Aus than there is in the UK. It's not exactly like the '60's plywood home build dinghy boom, but people are significantly more confident to tackle things for some reason. ------------- Europe AUS53 & FF 3615 National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 11:20am
The OK can do this because it has, sensibly, a relatively heavy weight compared to some original kit boats that are impossible to build from wood to weight by the average Joe. To further make a wooden boat less likely the once kit boats are now made in foam sandwich all baked in ovens. Obviously it market driven but a shame. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 3:36pm
|
Before lockdown I had seen maybe 3 paddleboards down at my lake, now there are loads of them, the lake appears to have become the local lido! They are all getting paddleboards out of their boots and pumping them up in the car park. We have now had to close membership to paddleboarders as we have too many. So the next big dinghy innovation will probably be something inflatable like this: https://www.decathlon.co.uk/tribord-5s-sailboat-id_8505350.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.decathlon.co.uk/tribord-5s-sailboat-id_8505350.html
|
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 3:47pm
Wow, people will buy these and be lost to sailing. Look at the mast bend in the third photo  nice built in wheels. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 4:48pm
I think most carbon dinghy masts are based on a relatively limited range of 'standard' tubes. The Blaze carbon stick is 2.5kg lighter than the M7 so probably around 3.5kg or so. It is a bit longer than a windsurfer mast though at ~6.5m and probably a fair bit stiffer. That's where designing a dinghy rig based on a windsurfer mast becomes unlikely to work well, not stiff enough for good performance and not strong enough to handle the loads. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 5:01pm
iGRF should instruct his lawyers, that looks like an inflatable V2 ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 7:57pm
|
A SUP with an inflatable bog seat on it, the future of sailing? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 9:54pm
But is anyone else looking at it and thinking Laser EPS? |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 8:39am
Yes that’s why I look 
|
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 11:28am
|
Another one slightly off the mainstream, £3k + for extras https://youtu.be/PFrakwzaaCE" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/PFrakwzaaCE ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 12:04pm
Makes the EPS bog seat look very comfortable! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 12:39pm
A modern day Sunfish maybe? They were originally sold through places like Walmart as a bit of holiday fun I seem to remember reading somewhere. ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 12:45pm
|
I had 'Tinks' inflatable, didn't have the side bags though, very uncomfortable in a drifter, difficult to windsurf in a anything other than a howler, mast issues too, has you can imagine trying to tension the mast.
I also had a 'Tinker traveller' far superior in every way, still not a sailing dinghy, you needed the engine in tide, also had Oars, genuine working boat. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 7:19pm
|
The ultimate Walmart boat us the Super Snark.
Owned one for a couple of years till the abs peeled from the polystyrene. Best £20 boat I've owned. Still got the lateen sail! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 7:42pm
If I remember correctly there was a UK styrene boat, late 1970s but can’t find any reference to it. The Swordfish is a canoe design using PU foam and skinned with cotton impregnated with PVA glue that is becoming popular with home builders in the USA. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 8:45pm
|
The UK styrene boat was, I think, the ‘Mailboat’. Brought out in response and competition to the Mirror. Awful thing and thankfully sank without trace. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 9:03pm
|
Dissolved without a trace apparantly, if it hit petrol in the water! Maybe someone on here knows if that is true? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 9:44pm
Do you mean the Sea Snark? I had one at 8yrs old. It was my first boat and got me the sailing bug. So it wasn’t that bad... 😊 |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 25 Jul 20 at 6:14am
Yes I think that was it and the newspaper thing rings a bell  ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: seasailor
Date Posted: 25 Jul 20 at 8:36am
|
Early square headed main?
|
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 25 Jul 20 at 10:19am
|
Viewing that grainy photo - it looks as good as the 'paper' itself .... |
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 25 Jul 20 at 3:29pm
That looks a little bit like one of those Yorkshire land yachts  ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |