Sailing Downwind
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13557
Printed Date: 25 Jun 25 at 8:49pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Sailing Downwind
Posted By: Wetabix
Subject: Sailing Downwind
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 8:53am
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Have you ever had the experience that you thought you knew something and then you realised that you didn't? I have been sailing for about 65 years and thought I knew how to run. You point the boat at the leeward mark, let the sail out, goosewing the jib or hoist the spinnaker or if you are in a una rigged singlehander you might try a bit of reverse flow leech first by-the-lee funny stuff. But .......... I recently returned to sailing a Phantom having been in a slow asymmetric for ten years and I find that everyone is tacking downwind, even boats with conventional spinnakers such as the N18 who gybe through almost 90 degrees. The point-at-the-leeward mark technique is endorsed by Frank Bethwaite in Higher Performance Sailing and Nick Craig in Sailing to Win (?) so why is nobody doing it? Or have I been missing something for the last 65 years. As an aside, is there a decent book on how to sail which is not aimed at beginners or people sailing Lasers? George Morris Weta 117 Phantom 903 Spurn (21ft cruiser)
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Replies:
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 10:04am
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It depends on the boat and the wind strength, point at the mark is fastest until you gain enough speed but sailing the angles to make up for the extra distance sailed. Fast, early planing boats that can generate useful apparent wind gain soonest, slower boats are better doing dead downwind longer. It's not that assy kites gain more than sym kites by sailing the angles (well, apart from the fact that they are invariable a lot bigger for a given size of boat) it's simply that most assy kite boats can't sail DDW. Think of the extremes, sailing dead downwind at 2 knots will get you to the mark faster than sailing a beam reach at 6 knots (which will actually never get you there). I sail a Blaze and we are about the same speed as a tin rig Phantom but it pays of sailing the angles slightly sooner in the Blaze 'cos we plane slightly earlier and slightly faster. It is, it seems, a bit of a black art and I wouldn't claim to be any good at it (though I was pretty good on a Raceboard back in the day).
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 11:31am
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Approach your club superstar and get them to follow you around and give you feedback. After 50 years sailing I learnt more in a hour with our local multi class national champ than ten books.
But dont tell anyone as they may not be RYA qualified! |
Posted By: Wetabix
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 12:03pm
| Club superstars have their place in the cosmic scheme of things but my experience is that if you lay on a training day it soon becomes apparent that they have no idea how they do it! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 12:13pm
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I think it depends on the club superstar in question. Some of them know exactly how they do it and prefer to keep it a secret, others are happy to share (and, yes some just do it by instinct). One thing is for sure. I definitely don't know how I do it (on those rare occasions when I do get it right)
 ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 4:54pm
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Depends on your local lake. At my local place it definitely depends on the conditions as to whether DDW pays or if playing the angles pays. The legs are usually pretty short so keeping clear wind from your chasers and staying in the puffs is usually more beneficial than going gust hunting through big angles. Likewise with a kite boat, the amount you lose gybing the kite is more than you gain by going for the optimal angle. I have had success going deep by the lee at times though, the unstayed rig boats definitely have an advantage in that dept. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 6:38pm
Shameless plug, but if my sailing hero Michael McNamara liked it... ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 6:49pm
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If you are enough of an anorak you could develop some polars for different wind strengths which would allow you to make a more informed choice of whether to sail deep or bigger angles. My personal opinion is that unless you are sailing a proper light weight skiff class you are unlikely to find the sweet spot by sailing high that allows you to take advantage of apparent wind angles that let you crack off as speed increases. I noticed this when sailing RS200’s and RS400’s after I14’s. I think I have said this previously, a very successful sailor shared this advice with me “there are only too fast ways downwind ... sailing by the lee or reaching” ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 6:50pm
What book would that be  ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Wetabix
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 6:54pm
| Go on then -plug it |
Posted By: Wetabix
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 9:00pm
| Just spotted the link - thanks very much - I have bought it. If it tells me I have to change my diet, go to a gym or employ a sports psychologist it'll go straight in the bin! |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 9:29pm
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Downwind always known to be slower than a broad reach. If you can do 4kts dead run, you can probably do 5 on broad reach.
If you had a 1nm leg, doing 4kts you will complete in 15 minutes. Let's say you go 30degrees off the wind angle at 5kts would be less than 14mins if my maths is right |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 9:34pm
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On a pond for 100 yards I'd bet on the straight line. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Wetabix
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 9:59pm
| Your maths is correct but there isn't much in it. By sailing 30 deg off DDW you will sail 115% of the distance. If your boat will sail at 120% of its DDW speed then, yes, it is faster to head up. But will it? I guess if it were cut and dried we wouldn't be having this conversation. Nick Craig says 'soak if you can but during your practice sessions experiment with other angles' if I remember correctly |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 10:14pm
| Thing is 5 or 10 degrees is more than enough to make a difference. |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 10:24pm
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Forgetting the asymmetric issues you raised...they're different from a Phantom. And unstayed rigs like Lasers who do the reverse flow. The stays on a Phantom make that difficult. There are 4 reasons for gybing downwind (1) clearing your breeze from other boats (2) tactical (to gain a ROW advantage or escape from somebody elses), (3) to head towards better breeze, and (4) to point more towards the leeward mark (windshifts).Those are the main things. In a busy fleet 1 and 2 might be unavoidable. But when those aren't so much of an issue , 3 (in patchy breeze) and 4 (in a shifty breeze) are what you should always be trying to deal with. But you should always be trying to do 4. To be doing 4 well, there will be a sweet spot, where your sail is generating max drive whilst trying to go as low as possible. That's the struggle, it’s a feel thing and will only come from racing your boat frequently. But as others have said, a good thing would be to talk to people who are good at sailing Phantoms. I think there's a few good Phantom sailors on here. |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 11:15pm
If they can gybe efficiently... the guy who goes 10-15 degrees may be very pleased by your decision ;-) |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 11:26pm
Pretty sure this is the art of racing. Knowing do you go 5, 10, 15, 29, 30 degrees for the conditions. Plus Reading the shifts and the conditions. You only need to get a boat length ahead for things to matter. My example was picked for simplicity of maths. Polar plot from a Volvo Ocean 60 
Not the perecntage difference changes by wind speed. Not sure what matters? Get three identical boats to round a windward mark in quick succession. Boat 1 - dead down wind. Boat 2 - 10degree, Boat 3 - 30 degree... Who hits the downwind mark first...? This is why good racers practice. They are testing different approaches |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 11:45pm
Depends on wind strength, assuming nobody is blanketing anybody else. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Mar 20 at 8:40am
Maybe, and sometimes I'll bet against, with, as you'd expect, mixed results, some good, some bad. But putting this into a racing situation means my decision to go off course will be influenced by everything others have said. If someone is sailing angles, I may decide to cover and keep clear wind. If on my own, then the choice is DDW or 5 degrees off to create flow, depending upon wind strength, where the trees are, etc, as JimC says. But I sail short, slow boats, so the speed gains are limited, especially in non planing conditions. Volvo 60s they are not. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Wetabix
Date Posted: 12 Mar 20 at 8:58am
| So: having started the leeward leg, do I keep the burgee pointing backwards and sail with the mainsail stalled in an apparent wind of 4 kts or do I turn up just a teeny weeny bit and bring the apparent wind more or less onto the beam and the leeward tell tales attached? I guess I could go to YouTube and dig out some races from the Stars, Lasers,Finns and 470s and see what they do. Volvos, 18ft Skiffs, GP32s and F50s are not quite as relevant! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Mar 20 at 9:17am
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I don't believe there are any sudden transitions. At dead down wind the whole rig is stalled out, no power and its all doggy, as the boat heads up a bit more of the rig starts to work better progressively as things improve.
Personally I doubt many people sail absolutely dead downwind for very long. There's an obvious test - pull the boom across with no course change. Does the boat feel exactly the same on the opposite gybe? Ultimately it seems to me a lot is in the ears. Your ears will tell you better than anything else if the boat is going faster or slower... |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 Mar 20 at 9:48am
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The Minisprint is best gybing boat I have ever sailed, in any wind strength, on a long leg I would not hesitate to swing from gybe to gybe, also with its chine, it sails well by the lee, so various options. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 12 Mar 20 at 12:37pm
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What lots of peeps seem to miss - including me - is the ability to maintain speed while heading lower once planing has been achieved. I had a graphic demonstration of this years ago thanks to a 'large' and extremely able crew - thanks Robin. Hoisted at the top mark for the run leg, in a reasonable breeze. Not mental but plenty for planing. I'm pointing a the bottom and looking forward to a bit of a rest (all that mainsheet trimming is tiring, you know). Robin says 'head up', then 'more' until we're flying, then 'down', 'down' and 'down more' until we're pointing at the leeward mark but the apparent wind says we're reaching. I don't think I had ever been so fast before and it was somewhat scary at the time, but jeez, did it work! And this was in a wooden-top Fireball, so no rocketship. Lesson learned.
------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Mar 20 at 12:56pm
| It works in sub planing conditions too, if more subtly. Head up and get the better flow and some apparent wind, and you can slide down again and keep the sail working more efficiently. |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 12 Mar 20 at 1:27pm
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For me I went out and just practised gybing until I was sure that I was not losing and possibly marginally gaining from the act of a gybe - yes I know the rules - go watch any race though. Once you know for sure there is no downside of popping in a roll gybe why not play the shifts as much as possible? I suspect this is what you are seeing in action rather than people messing with angles. ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: lissa78
Date Posted: 28 Aug 20 at 4:49am
You are right, I agree with you. ------------- https://www.agesofsail.com/ecommerce/" rel="nofollow - Ship Model Kits | https://www.agesofsail.com/ecommerce/beginner-easy-ship-kits.html" rel="nofollow - Model Boat Kits |
Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 31 Aug 20 at 8:25am
| You have all assumed flat water. Watch top Laser sailors going downwind when there are waves, they steer crazy amounts to ensure the boat is using waves to the maximum |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 03 Sep 20 at 3:31pm
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Having sailed next to Nick Craig when he was sailing Phantoms.
F 3-4 at Carsington some years ago. 1. He was often sailing by the Lee, loose rig and minimal kicker. 2. He was often turning to stay in the gusts and small Wave patterns 3. Went from third to first on the run The two in front were sailing high angles, one was a previous national champ. I was the lead Solution at a combined event and followed Nick, as the Phantom fleet cane through the slower sution fleet. Almost fell in three times, but fortunately had watched the rooster vid so saved it. I overtook one of the Phantoms as well. I never sailed high on the run in a solution after that. Even started doing the by the Lee thing in a national 12. Was quick there too, but easier to get the boom forward. Boats with spinnakers are a different breed. Andy ------------- Andy Mck |