What if? (Blaze b**tardisation content)
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13552
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 4:03pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: What if? (Blaze b**tardisation content)
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: What if? (Blaze b**tardisation content)
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 2:33pm
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I put trap wires on a Blaze? In my quest for a middle of the road single hand trapeze boat. Since they won't make me a light Contender, the Blaze is a bit lighter, not light enough by far, but better, maybe ditch the racks? What do we think as a collective? I know it goes against your class sensibilities any thought of customising the dross we have to deal with, but humour me here?
Could it work, what would the issues be? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 2:41pm
| Would the mast take the forces applied in the different area? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 2:51pm
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It has been done before* and I actually have all the bits to do this but I haven't got around to it yet. And I have had a kite rigged on my Blaze. Maybe this summer I'll get them both on there together. I won't be risking it with the carbon stick, mostly 'cos I don't want to drill it for the extra fixings but the M7 is a sturdy old beast. A nice new Blaze mk4 hull with racks ditched would weigh around 60kg or a little less IIRC. If you went for the carbon mast you'd save another 2.5kg, dyneema standing rigging, another 2kg or so and you'd be down around 75kg all in. There's no appetite for it at class level but for handicap racing why not. * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PAlHQp_qMc" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PAlHQp_qMc ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 3:21pm
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The Blaze is basically a Buzz / ISO / Spice hull form. So dog slow in light wind due to the wetted surface. Way more than the 3.7. I'd debate Sam's hull weight estimation (but as you know you could make a 3.7 down to 30kg). My view would be that a Blaze would be OK when it's windy for a newbie trapeze sailor, but not very lively, which is fine for a newbie but you are beyond that now, and a 3.7 is way more lively and involving. Can't see how it would bring you light wind banditry. You are still better off with a fat head main on your Farr 3.7 (with Asymmetric). Or just by an RS700. *edit spelling
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 4:19pm
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Why not just get a Musto Skiff; much lighter at 82.5kgs all up ... http://www.mustoskiff.com/sub-pages/weight-breakdown.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.mustoskiff.com/sub-pages/weight-breakdown.htm |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 4:21pm
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If you want to make your own based on an existing hull a Phantom might be better. ------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 4:25pm
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Well I've ordered a new sail for the Farr 3.7, that is in progress, but I don't think there is a sail made that will undo the waterline length issues v Laser/Aero 7 offwind unless it's full planing hiking, but I do think the Blaze in medium wind with a wire (which keeps me in practise) will remove Lasers and the like from my horizon. We shall see, It's a tin rig, my old one returned for the summer I should be able to sail it better than I did ten years ago when I first got it. From memory it have carbon racks so they don't weight much and I haven't ascertained wether a carbon rig would suit that particular purpose.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 4:28pm
Very rough estimate TBF, bare hull around 48-50kg* plus some slate blocks, mast and rigging 7.8kg, sail ~4kg, CB 6kg, rudder 6kg boom ropes blocks, say 10kg so maybe 85kg would be closer sans racks. * source :- Cirrus but from memory. The carbon outers save a couple of kg tops over ally I'd say, remember the other 8 rack tubes (two each aft inner, aft outer, forward inner, forward outer) probably make up a fair bit of the weight. Keep us posted iRGF, it'll be interesting to hear how you get on.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 4:54pm
I'm quite inspired by the French dude, he's kited it as well, can't see my lot wearing me fully wiring off the racks and a kite at the new 1033 PY, I can hear the howls and wails from here..  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 5:56pm
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I'm confused as to why you are not converting your 3.7 to a 3.7 Turbo (with Asymmetric). The deep off-wind legs are your 3.7 PY killer. [TUBE]ohw7-fH7Sqg[/TUBE]
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 6:15pm
Probably the same reason I'll have problems with the Blaze, which will be the PY I'll get with a kite. They are only condoning my use of 1063 rather than 1037 because of the Great Lakes thing, a kite gives you barely 15% boost but you'll lose more, then there's the extra weight and cutting the hull about, whatever you might say you can build them down to, the fact is there is no-one capable of doing that or willing to. So adding a kite will only add weight and decrease the yardstick, hence I didn't bother, that doesn't mean I won't, but that's why I haven't until now. The other benefit you get from the Blaze, if it could be built to a half decent weight, is the retracting centre board which was also one of the attractions with the Contender. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 6:19pm
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Why not see if Hartley's would sell you a bare Blaze hull without correctors and racks, make some custom carbon racks (or even do without racks) and go from there? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 6:29pm
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Farr 3.7, foiling rudder to trick the water line length and then a self tacking jib (and won’t require much mods, but rig efficiency should be way better. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 8:56pm
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Are you trying to win on the water, or cheat the yardstick system? Message seems confused. If producing a one off boat, then yardstick is meaningless, so just worry about speed. If yardstick is important, then you need to stick within class rules, as otherwise the game has no clear winner, as potential speeds are just a guess. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Mar 20 at 9:23pm
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With which boat? With the Farr, just trying to sail it to that 1063 handicap.
The Blaze, initially I thought I might just engage in a bit of Banditry in light weather, just for the craic given it's now 1033, but then I thought, oh, what if and thus this thread. I realise then I wouldn't get away with the PY and it would then be just the fun of racing a trapeze boat and trying to get better at sailing off the wire in a more competitive boat within the fleet and not just dropping further and further behind because we're (the boat and me) too slow. Even with a crack helm you'll never get a Farr close to a Contender over the water, I've only ever done it once or twice and in very light tactical tidal conditions they don't happen that often. But I wonder how close a Blaze with a wire might get in mid winds, might be fun trying to find out. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 04 Mar 20 at 6:58am
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iGRF I am sure people have suggested it before but what not just by a Laser and enjoy some class racing. There was a boat in the 1980s with an unstayed mast and a trapeze. Had something plus in the name. Plenty of old lasers about, old ten meter windsurfing rig and stay it like Herrreshoff/UFO ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 04 Mar 20 at 8:04am
Stop trying to apply logic and giving proper advice. This is a GRF thread , these things have no place in it .
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Mar 20 at 9:44am
Because I quite like using a trapeze, reminds me of windsurfing, not quite as controllable and a bit edgy offwind, but it's something new, and I like to keep learning new stuff. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Mar 20 at 9:58am
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Adapt a Laser 2 mast and fit it to a Laser 1, already got trapeze. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 Mar 20 at 1:10pm
Might as well just buy a L3k ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 04 Mar 20 at 1:34pm
Yep to the T Foil. I've suggested that to iGRF. The hull form isn't best suited to it but that could also be said of T Foils giving good performance gain to older N12's. Jibs have been put on Farr 3.7's and it works. But deep off wind will still be a struggle which is where the PY hands it to iGRF. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 04 Mar 20 at 1:39pm
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I'm not actually sure this is a Farr 3.7... but... [TUBE]jkUwNvWAF8g[/TUBE]
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 04 Mar 20 at 1:44pm
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Quite honestly if iGRF wants to be a kick arse bandit in the light suff with minimum hassle, a Symmetrical Kite would probably be best, if he rigs an elastic tiller strop to centre the rudder to do the pole swap. He can steer well with his weight being a windsurfer after all. [TUBE]2UDvjjwHAJc[/TUBE] ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Mar 20 at 4:51pm
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In order for my Farr to be a 'kick arse bandit it would need a handicap around that of a Streaker, put a kite on it then maybe 15% less. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Mar 20 at 5:28pm
Maybe the Delta? Very big fat mast. Maybe modern masts could be smaller. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 04 Mar 20 at 7:24pm
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"Might as well get a L3k" Or even a V3000, lighter than L3000 and sailable as is singlehanded in light. No need to mangle or modify and a straightforward resale when needed. |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 05 Mar 20 at 10:59am
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Ha.... you are all forgetting that there are other criteria high on the I-Grf list of 'must haves'. The boat (whichever boat this is) must deliver all the sizzle of satisfaction immediately, without any time being wasted learning curve which means it must be achievable from day one. And if that is not enough, you have the practical issue of sailing off a beach which I will admit can be a tricky prospect - like a space launch it's difficult going but the real issues arise when you want to come back. There is the RS 600 - but he will not consider that as he'd been told that they were unsailable (the same argument he used to denigrate the Musto) and the V3000... as has already been said, at least you can move these on if they don't 'float his boat'. But Graeme is determined to do things his way, which has to be good, as without that mindset sailing would be a lot further back and all the poorer, but the idea that one can just add a wire to a rig and make it into a performance boat is...well.... interesting - and there are historical examples of it going badly wrong, as when the Phantoms dabbled with the addition of a trapeze! There is a lot of thought and a good deal of theoretical science that goes into any design, which is why the likes of Dan Holman and others are so sought after. But I am sure that this is a sailing saga that will run and run, let's await the next instalment with interest! Dougal ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 05 Mar 20 at 12:36pm
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Re-reading this thread I think iGRF's real issue is with the punitive yardstick the Farr 3.7 has been given. So even though testing out a bigger fat head main on the Farr is the most logical choice I still think he has the feeling that it won't be competitive on the number it has. I think the same thinking is present for the idea of adding an Asymmetric. Which is catered for in the 3.7's rules. (I wouldn't agree with this thinking, but its not my money being spent). So if you apply that logic an RS600, RS700 or Musto isn't going to cut it as the yardstick is fairly neutral. So unless iGRF is so seriously underweight for the boat when he sails it in light weather, and it floats so high the wetted surface is so reduced it out performs its yardstick, I'm not sure he will consider it? iGRF, am I wrong? ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Mar 20 at 12:59pm
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In my thirst for sailing perfection I've had the following:
Musto Skiff (readily now admit this might have been a bit of an error to use to teach myself dinghy sailing) Laser 3K (SWMBO said why not take our fourth daughter out to learn with, collision with Dr Death put paid to that.) RS500 (Not a particularly nice boat) ALTO ( best part of my sailing period until death of my dear friend & crew from cancer) ICON (demo loan boat really great boat screwed by the PYAG) Blaze (Didn't last long in face of RS100 on horizon) RS100 (Didn't work out decided to build my own, if you fall out very difficult to get back in unaided) V Twin ( Fun but way way way too heavy and impossible to right if ever it went over) Laser EPS (Just sold it, was a fun boat but a little difficult in stronger wind, introduced me to close quarters on lake) MiniSail ( bought it for a laugh as a lake bandit still got it) Solution (Still got it,excellent boat use it down the lake can race it now in almost every wind condition) Solo (bought and sold fairly quickly, not quite old enough yet) Far 3.7 (Still got it, fun boat but needs a lot of wind, only really gets into its groove above force 4) This winter made a spirited attempt at acquiring a Contender but fate has decided it's not to be so have temporarily re acquired my old Blaze for this seasons sub force 4 moments So that is the saga in brief, there's more to come I'm pleased to say and how we can't get more folk to enjoy this sport is beyond me, then again there are ten million or so Sun Readers that probably can't swim, so what's your story? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Mar 20 at 1:11pm
Post crossed, are you wrong? You're a dinghy sailor so yes of course you are ;-) I'm not that bothered by the Yardstick as much as I love the occasional wind up, years of racing boards with no handicap means it's over the water honours I like to chase and there is a big disparity between my ability to get the Farr around the course and just about all the other boats racing, I don't even mind coming DFL if I've enjoyed it, I'm long past the point where my ego demands line honours, you'll find once your over your mid sixties egos vanish. That said I still like to improve and did last season, found my groove, it even felt like a raceboard, but it's still only just ahead of my peers in their lasers, not even close to the Contenders and whupped by a good Laser sailor and Aero 7 which is still a bone of contention. I'm not underweight, I suspect the sail I had is undersize, I'll know this once I get the new rag up, the performance improved with that cut down Vortex sail, but that was a crap sail anyway (It's previous owner had exchanged it for lack of performance) What I really need to do is sail alongside somebody good on the Farr to get some perspective that would expose all my flaws, which would then give me peace of mind, that it is me at fault, but right now, it's the boat like always ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 06 Mar 20 at 8:12am
------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
"Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 06 Mar 20 at 9:29am
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WTF did grf really admit the possibility that he could have flaws lol This really does prove the world has gone mad
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Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 06 Mar 20 at 9:55am
Would it not be cheaper to get some coaching rather than wasting all this money messing with the equipment?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Mar 20 at 10:19am
It's been my experience that like teachers, if you can't do it, coach it. The only folk to learn from are other good sailors, to be close enough to learn from them you need to be fast enough to stay with them. Easy in light weather, not so when the breeze is up. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Mar 20 at 12:10pm
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That'll be a surprise to the Olympians and world champions who have become coaches!
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06 Mar 20 at 12:56pm
This is why I think you’d best served getting back in a Solo. Yes, yes I know they’re an old mans boat... but get on the circuit and you’ll be surprised in more ways than one. You will learn so much, both through osmosis and through bar chat, about the very subtle differences that mean the difference between finishing first or last in 20 boats. In terms of trapezing a Blaze, the boom is quite low to make wire to wire tacking easy, and maybe the bigger Halo rig would be better? Also, I think Blazes run low rig tension usually - I’m not entirely sure what effect trapezing would have.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Mar 20 at 2:39pm
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I get that, I'm picking up a fair bit in the Solution now there are four down the lake sailed by more experienced boat handlers than I, two of whom are quite young and when it's windy you get to see their auto responses, built in from sailing since they were kids, not something I'm likely to ever fully replicate at this late stage in lifes game, but useful nonetheless to attempt to emulate and try to beat, which doesn't happen in a breeze, even if I do get ahead best I've lasted is about half an hour before they reel me in. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 06 Mar 20 at 3:54pm
Coaching and doing are very different skills; although many experts do move into coaching.
I should have know you would only disparage coaches when I suggested it. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 06 Mar 20 at 5:33pm
So you like (love?) the 3.7 when it's windy now it's enabled you to learn the skill set, but want that feeling when it's light to mid range (sign of a great boat, you want more of it). And you are not sure about how much you are effecting / or the rig is set up, is effecting performance. So three things that need looking at. 1. Performance. Fairly simple solution to my mind - Skiffs have always had different sized rigs for exactly the same reasons. Work with a 'Decent' sail maker to develop a bigger main. Report back to the class. Maybe it will be adopted, if not globally then maybe the UK. (just think of it like a windsurfer - you have loads of rigs for those don't you). How long is and what profile is your board? 2. Set Up Spend a bit more time chatting the NZ guys about your rig from a technical point of view (or dare I say take your boat to a rigger / your mast builder / P&B or similar to tune your boat, and get some tuning tips). i.e get behind the class, take up a role. Drive the class forward, with your sensible hat on. I'm keeping the wheels moving in the UK but it needs owners to step up. 3. Training Tricky at the moment. See 2. But if owners get behind the class and arrange to get together (Graham - who sailed the Great Lakes GP was very keen if you remember for you to join him). You can collectively improve and or split the cost of a RYA Coach. Also you have a lot of options with the Farr 3.7 that are inside the rules set i.e, T Foils, Asymmetric Spinnakers, Very light hull option (I appreciate that is one hell of a commitment). To me it sound like you kinda know you have the right boat but the other bits of the puzzle aren't there. And unfortunately that's only going to happen when the owners put the time in. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 06 Mar 20 at 5:59pm
Well said. And to put it another way, why buy yet another boat and try to b**tardise it when you could spend the effort (and probably less cash) legitimately developing the Farr. With greater chance of achieving the goal too, particularly given others have walked the same path, and looking at some of the videos in this thread, succeeded. ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |