MASSIVE JUDGMENT AGAINST LASER PERFORMANCE
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13537
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 8:30pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: MASSIVE JUDGMENT AGAINST LASER PERFORMANCE
Posted By: ACLI
Subject: MASSIVE JUDGMENT AGAINST LASER PERFORMANCE
Date Posted: 20 Feb 20 at 8:17am
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Theres been no reference to this in y&y unless I've missed it. https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Jury-Verdict.pdf
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Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Feb 20 at 9:16am
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As it stands this case is not very significant (except to the lawyers' families who will doubtless be getting a very nice summer holiday this year). Laser branded boats are now built by Laser Performance LLC who didn't feature in this lawsuit, and the Laser Trademark in Europe is I believe held by an offshore company called Velum, who also didn't feature. Laser Performance (Europe) is now a dormant empty shell of a company which one doubts will be paying any damages any time soon, and I don't know about Quartermoon.
What might be of interest to sailors is the other bunch of legal proceedings inching its way millimetre by millimetre through the dysfunctional US legal system. I haven't been keeping up, but I believe that was all about the contracts that existed between Kirby's company and the Laser builders, and those contracts sought to prevent a former Laser builder and their successors being involved in building Lasers in any shape or form. If those are ever shown to have teeth then things may be more interesting. I suggest folk don't hold their breath for a final result. No doubt even the above case will be appealed and counter appealed for years yet. |
Posted By: ACLI
Date Posted: 20 Feb 20 at 10:11am
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Precedent against Commercial judgment avoidance might have already been set see link. I don't think you can just appeal a case (kick it down the road without new evidence) the jury were unanimous I believe. In the meantime laser performance must have definitely lost the trust of everyone who would risk supplying or buying from them? (Not me for sure) https://www.fladgate.com/2017/05/commercial-litigation-asset-stripping-and-judgment-avoidance/" rel="nofollow - https://www.fladgate.com/2017/05/commercial-litigation-asset-stripping-and-judgment-avoidance/ |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 20 Feb 20 at 8:22pm
| It depends how many people out there want to buy a non class legal from them |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 8:07am
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How many people outside of the enthusiast group will know? For sure the vast majority of those involved in racing from club level upwards will be at least aware of this. The predominance of non genuine sails and kit in club and non class based open events suggest that a decent proportion of these people don't care about the origin of their stuff and just want to sail as cheaply as possible. Whether this will extend to the origin of the hull we will have to wait a number of years to find out as these people are unlikely to buy new. However a significant proportion of Laser sales probably don't see a racecourse at least not in the first portion off their lives. The availability of a cheaper, similar quality and identical product will appeal to some private individuals and definitely to commercial bodies. This will undoubtedly make a dent in the income of whoever the approved builder is if it happens and since LPE own the name "Laser" in relation to a small sailing dinghy and presumably own the tooling what can anyone do top stop them?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 8:27am
That's exactly why this case isn't important to us and the other one about contracts is. The contracts a Laser builder had to sign were intended to force any company that ceased being a Laser builder for any reason to sell all their tooling and give up all rights and capability to build Laser like boats. LPE, BTW, barely exists now. Laser branded boats are built by a newish company under much the same ownership called Laser Performance LLC. |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 9:25am
I would argue that most private buyers of lasers/ILCA will know the difference because these people are doing opens/masters events/nationals etc. The problem could happen when none class legal boats come onto the second hand market after being sold on by sailing schools and holiday companies. Knowing and remembering to check the correct plaque is in place when buying a laser second hand could become very important. |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 10:50am
Excellent mangling of imperial and metric.  ------------- Steve |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 10:56am
 ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 11:37am
Although I admit I do have trouble fathoming the chain of litigation... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 1:18pm
And a lovely mix of sea and land! A chain must be 3 2/3 fathoms, if memory serves me right? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 5:24pm
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Having had years of fun sailing Bruce Kirby's great little boat both racing and as a beach boat I'm pleased that he's had his day in court, and if I've read it correctly has been awarded over $6m in damages. Which feels fairly emphatic. However, I share JimC's view that I doubt if Bruce will ever see a penny of this as I'm sure that Mr Rastergar will have played corporate hide the assets and that the respondent companies, LPE and QMI, have been pillaged. I'm not close enough to the Laser scene to have a view on how this will effect the class, but I hope it's a positive one.
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Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 6:39pm
and 10 chains in a furlong? |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 7:01pm
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Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 7:02pm
| And of course because its Laser related, you will have to buy the special Laser chain if you wish to measure a furlong properly |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 9:13pm
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I believe the Laser chain is connected to a plug hole. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 11:54pm
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No, it's connected to a cistern........ ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Feb 20 at 10:19am
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Are they flushed with success, then? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Feb 20 at 3:18pm
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Don't know I suspect LPE is down the pan though ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 1:40pm
| And coming to a chandlery near you;XD bog chain kit with the all important extra purchase.😀 |
Posted By: bdu98252
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 3:04pm
| Surely the first check any legal firm would take prior to taking on a case like this is that the person they are suing is able to pay the courts award. This is especially true given that I believe that this was not Kirby paying for this action and legal companies themselves. If they have not done this then it was a pretty dim legal action to pursue as all legal action costs money before you stand any chance of getting any money back. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 4:50pm
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I'd guess that they started the action before LPE was mothballed. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: ACLI
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 6:28pm
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I don't think you can just appeal a case (kick it down the road without new evidence) the jury were unanimous I believe. In the meantime laser performance must have definitely lost the trust of everyone who would risk supplying or buying from them? (Not me for sure) https://www.fladgate.com/2017/05/commercial-litigation-asset-stripping-and-judgment-avoidance/" rel="nofollow - https://www.fladgate.com/2017/05/commercial-litigation-asset-stripping-and-judgment-avoidance/ |
Posted By: Vronny
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 6:56pm
| LaserPerformance (Europe) Ltd is at the Dinghy Show. Stand C96 according to the show guide. So not quite dead? Or is this a totally different company? |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 9:12pm
As Jim C posted LPE is just a shell company now. But the are a number of companies behind it . The important thing to remember is it’s no longer a class registered builder . So unless it still has some WS plaques left, any boat you buy from them might be called a laser but you cannot use at any class event. If you want to get a class legal boat you need to pop over to the PSA stand ( sailboats ) .
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Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 9:40pm
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If this was the script for a film, someone would have ripped it up as ridiculous and be on the search for someone who could write a proper story.
Crazy! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Feb 20 at 12:59am
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Doesn't the parent company of LPE still own various 'Laser' classes (i.e.nearly everything except the 'Laser/ILCA Dinghy/Kirby Sailboat)? If so they have plenty of stuff to sell at the show. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Feb 20 at 1:17pm
Only the Vago, Bug, Bahia and Pico I think. They list a couple of others on their website but most of them dont have a UK presence. The 2000 is now made/marketed by RS having ditched LP years ago. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Feb 20 at 2:12pm
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Plus the Sunfish, Funboat and Dart 16 I think but it's hard to be sure. Those plus the 'Laser(™)'* are for sale in the UK 'Laser Performance' online shop.
* It doesn't say 'Training Laser' anymore..... edit :- It sells "Laser Club Edition" and will, presumably, be selling those at the Dinghy show. https://www.laserperformance.us/pages/zvzxcvzfdgfd" rel="nofollow - https://www.laserperformance.us/pages/zvzxcvzfdgfd
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Vronny
Date Posted: 26 Feb 20 at 2:25pm
| Meanwhile you can buy the "new ILCA dinghy" (with 7, 6 and 4 rigs) from Sailboats. So that's OK. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Feb 20 at 6:22pm
You can buy an ILCA from any manufacturer that is licensed to make them. How you get it into the UK is questionable. PSA are importing though, I wouldnt be surprised if more dealers start taking their boats until a more local builder is appointed. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Feb 20 at 7:06pm
They are, apparently, supposed to be licensing LPE to build again, see my link above, but it reads like the negotiations are not going smoothly (no surprises there then)  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 26 Feb 20 at 9:28pm
| No one really thinks there is much chance of LPE being reinstated. . |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26 Feb 20 at 10:22pm
All two of them. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Feb 20 at 11:14am
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"In mid-August 2019 the World Council of World Sailing voted for Laser to be the single-handed dinghy sailboat for the 2024 Olympics. This was based on the World Sailing Submission that said the following about LP and PSA:
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |