Is sailing too complex
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13509
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 11:00am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Is sailing too complex
Posted By: tink
Subject: Is sailing too complex
Date Posted: 24 Jan 20 at 7:36pm
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In a FB group a respected Australian designer reported the following: ‘The sheer compactness and ease of transport has meant that a classic dinghy regatta can attract 17 sailfish all over 40 years old. Maybe 5 moths turn up despite moths outnumbering sailfish over 25 to one’ I appreciate that this is a bit too wet for us in the UK but I had the thought, has sailing become too complex? Is that why our sport is in decline? ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
a picture of the very simple Australian Sailfish (scow rather than pointy American one) Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Jan 20 at 7:55pm
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Too expensive, maybe, with the expectation that you need the "right" class and all the gear. But forgetting cost, the Aero is pretty simple for the end user - maybe why it is a success?
The Minisail filled this niche in the UK for quite some time, and still does in my garage, and sometimes on the water. The Open Goose seems to do well in trade wind areas, too. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 24 Jan 20 at 8:57pm
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That blunt scow has about twice as many varaibles as a Laser. Rake, rig tension, lowers, battens, then all the variation in wood-built hulls etc Probably a more complex style of sailing too, as it may work well sailed on its ear at times?
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Jan 20 at 9:07pm
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The mast is held up with string, the boat will sail well heeled, so no stupid Laser style hiking. And the variation in the hulls means you can nail one together in the garage.
And you don't have to lift the whole damn rig into the boat all at once. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 24 Jan 20 at 10:12pm
The fact is a dinghy can be simple or complex. But the fact is, the simple act of racing a boat around a race course is always complex 
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Jan 20 at 10:53pm
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^ This ^ It's as simple or as complex as you want to make it. Even racing, if you re happy to potter around at the back with getting round the corners upright the nadir of your expectations. Whatever, literally, floats your boat.  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Jan 20 at 11:09pm
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There is nothing more simple than a sailboard and it's rig, but there is nothing more complex than getting it around a given course in less time than others.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 25 Jan 20 at 7:16am
Yes but also no, quiver of boards, multiple rigs and the obligatory V-dub ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 25 Jan 20 at 7:36am
Wasn’t necessarily thinking about the Australian scow Sailfish, it was just the catalyst for the question. The simple Laser, all the XD stuff, probably necessary but carbon top section of the mast, carbon tillers don’t to, my mind, add anything. The Aero, D-zero etc; choice of rigs, so do you buy both? do you take both with you on Sunday? Carbon mast and UV, do you take it down or buy the sock thing. Completely at a loss to why they can’t make with a UV protection pigment in it. Any these are boats at the simplest end of the whole array, foiling moths, Merlins and 505 are very complex but there are many other classes than over time have allowed adjustable on the water forestays, lowers, etc. Sorry about font size, frequently when I post it looses the post so I write in notes and copy and paste and it comes in big. It won’t then let me adjust. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 25 Jan 20 at 8:42am
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It doesn't have to be complex, there is a huge range of classes available. If you want to sail something straightforward buy an unstayed single hander. Laser, Topper, Lightning, Comet etc. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Jan 20 at 10:27am
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Mirror in single hander mode. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 25 Jan 20 at 10:30am
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Learning to sail,buying the boat,joining a club and then arranging to be involved in events and taking part is complex.
How complicated the boat is a tiny part of the process, and will have a tiny part of the success ( or not) of the class. Scows? Cheap, lots of variation so you can hide behind the differences if you wish, a blend of racers,diy experts etc. etc and I suspect a lack of the people best at holding a class back- those taking it too seriously |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 25 Jan 20 at 6:49pm
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I think Bethwaite said that the best boat was a wing in the air, a low drag floaty bit and a wing in the water. (correct me if I'm wrong and I can't remember the reference). So Sailing is a mixture of flying; complicated and very very expensive and floating. Less so. There is therefore a built in anount of complexity and cost that is difficult to get around. Windsurfers/sailboards get around some of the physical complexity by using the sailors body as part of the structure but this means a higher level of skill and fitness. I agree with IRM above that the complex bit that gets a lot of people is the aspect of joining learning and being involved. The complexity of the hardware is a relatively minor matter. ------------- Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Jan 20 at 1:36pm
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My journey into sailing began with a friends suggestion, his step father ran a RYA training centre. I booked level 1, turned up to somewhere full of strangers, no gear, no idea, within 30 minutes I was drinking tea and given sailing gear to wear, brilliant morning, never forgotten friends I made there, 4 weekends later passed level 1. Booked level 2, 4 weekends later passed level 2, instructors advice was, join a club if I wanted to progress, phoned my local club, arranged to turn up following saturday, again turned up at a place full of strangers, 10 years later made loads of friends, know how to run races, etc. My experience of sailing is, there are no strangers only friends we haven't yet met, complex sport made easier by dedicated participants. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: CapSizer
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 5:53am
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I'm falling into the very bad habit of starting sentences with "My father used to say", and I'm going to do it again now! One of the things he used to say was "It's very easy to learn to sail, but very difficult to learn to sail very well." He never did learn to sail well ... So here is the opinion that I'm forming. In the heyday of dinghy sailing there were no intimidating structured multi-level courses. Somebody quickly "showed you the ropes", plonked you in an Oppie, Mirror or Enterprise, and pushed you out to go and learn by yourself. And the sport thrived. Aren't we now frightening people off by insisting that it is so complex and difficult that you need this advanced structured course to even start? And that sailing is really about 30 knot foilers, rather than something you can feel comfortable with? |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 7:00am
Absolutely spot on, managed to sail for near 40 years before I had any sailing qualifications. I would say now that there are fewer individuals that sail boats that are ‘push you out and learn by yourself’ boats’, don’t think Laser, Aero or RS400 would get many people out a second time. The clubs have plenty but our newbie need a Level 2 to borrow one of those. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 9:00am
And few people learned to sail well. The problem with being shoved out in a boat to learn by yourself is that you pick up a raft of bad habits that will bite you later. Bethwaite has a lot to say about this in his third book. Its nicely encapsulated, I think, on the choice between centre main and transom main on beginners boats. Stern sheeting and tacking facing aft is completely intuitive, easy to teach, and hands and feet naturally fall in the right place. Centre sheeting tacking facing forward is a pain in the neck, involves umpteen tangles and all that steering behind your back business. |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 9:30am
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We live in a world where most are more interested in " covering their back" than doing their best.
I did 7 years as a full time instructor ( last century !) and my perception is that learning is much more complicated nowadays. I forget the name of the author, but I remember an autobiography covering some very radical dinghy cruising moving through to lots of top level offshore racing ( and winning) including involvement in organising races. And then not being able to rent a small yacht in the Med because he didnt have the relevant qualification !. Being placed in a boat and working much of it out myself seems to have worked for me. Still learning after 50 years, but doesnt that make it more fun? |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 9:30am
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Yes sailing is too complex - but it's the rules that are far too complex. The boats - just a little. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: CapSizer
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 10:24am
OK ... but don't you think there is a danger of letting perfect become the enemy of good enough? Better a sailor with some bad habits than no sailor at all.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 10:31am
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I too am entirely self taught, my only qualification is a long expired Windsurfing L1 Instructor ticket. Laser would not faze too many beginners with the sail wrapped around the mast a couple of times. The rules only apply to racing so probably not a barrier to beginners getting into a boat. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 10:56am
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I try and make sure my courses make things simple. The idea is to give a bit of structure to learning so the "get on with it" bit becomes a successful learning experience, not a scary one. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 12:35pm
The rules are complex if you are racing at a high level but I think you would be fine for the first 5-10 races at club level if you only know four. * Port-Stbd * Windward/leeward * Clear asturn avoids clear ahead or described as an enhancement of Overtaking boat keeps clear * You are entitled to room from boats outside of you at a mark but not if you come flying in late. The second two of those are wrong from a strict wording point of view, but from a practical point of view they will work and keep people out of trouble. Once they have done a few races then they will have experianced a few situations, and will understand more about how groups of boats come into conflict and go around marks etc and it will be eiser to enhance the basics and teach more. ------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 12:54pm
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Yup, but I'd simplify it even further and advise them to just stay out of the way at marks and, in the unlikely event that they are overtaking, do likewise. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 1:07pm
My favourite ( I have edited) quote from a Solo report " some saw what was happening at the mark, went for a coffee and came back later" Staying clear and relaxed is often really faster- and less " complex" |
Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 1:20pm
Keeping out of the way is good advice, and if you are introducing people to racing then it is a key point to get over. Depending on how you teach room at the mark then you can start from keeping out of the way, but then build in the point about an inside boat coming in late and fast. Something else that I think is good is predictability. I would generally recommend that people going for a sail when racing is on enter and sail the course. If boats are sailing the course then generally experianced sailors can predict what they are likely to do next and there will be less conflict than if people are just reaching back and fwd in the middle of the course. ------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 29 Jan 20 at 9:06am
As someone who was getting through top sections at the same rate as sails (2-3 per season) I can tell you that the carbon top section has made a massive difference! I haven't bought another top section for 2.5 years now. Can't wait for the carbon bottom section to come out for the same reason.
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 10 Feb 20 at 9:05am
You've missed the point. This is not how to survive your first attempts at sailing / racing. This was a general question - "is sailing too complex". It's both too complex to be viewed by almost all spectators due to its rule set (apart from when on the water judging is being used, like the AC). And it has too complex a rule set for participants, and an antiquated method of resolving those disputes. Which holds it back. Any rule set that can be debated is at risk of turning off participation. Sailing does this to the maximum. Protesting is like the very worst form of VAR imaginable. Also our rules are needlessly complex, and could be defined far more simply than they are. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 10 Feb 20 at 10:55am
| Totally disagree jack. The worst problem in sailing is not the rules or people lack of knowledge of them. It’s people who know the rules but disregard them because they don’t apply to them. And the word for them is CHEAT. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Feb 20 at 11:47am
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Yup, me too, simplifying the rules would be a 'sea lawyer's' charter and lead to more and more contentious protests. But the OP was related to the complexity of modern boats rather than the complexity of the racing rules. However managing the rules at club level is a matter of culture, I can't remember the last time I was involved in a protest at club level. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Feb 20 at 8:13pm
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The rules have developed over many years, they are almost an artefact, certainly have historical significance, whatever they are essential. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Feb 20 at 9:58pm
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It's a complex game, where players can interact in many different ways. So it needs to set limits on what is allowed, just like any other game with many variables. Not sure how long the rules of rugby are, and the basic premis there is to get a ball from one place to another.
As for the boats, there are simple ones, complex ones, mind boggling ones. Something for everyone, so long as we respect people's choices so they don't give up, thinking they have to buy complex/difficult to play the game. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |