Folks, wonder if you can advise here.

We have parent declarations for Junior sailing activities. Covers usual stuff, acceptance of risks, photography, good behaviour etc.

In the past year our Club came up with a "Dinghy entry form" that every member is supposed to sign and return before taking part in any races. We've added even more paperwork for the Junior sailors and have recently had to head off some over-zealous officers who were looking to give race officers the ability to ban under-14's from Club races if they wanted to.

We've never had a serious incident involving Junior sailors in Club races but we're fighting an internal battle with a group of officers who seem to think our Juniors are in imminent danger of a safety incident or the Club being held liable.

Does your club make any special provision for junior members taking part in Club races and are there any specific requirements or restrictions in place?

We sail in a pretty shallow, sheltered harbour by the way. So I'd say our risks are low.

It’s all about personal responsibility, not being TOLD what I can and cannot do.

It looks like you are looking for advice about proportionate responses to some perceived safety and social behaviour issues.

For that you have come to the wrong place, this is the Racing Rules forum.  For advice about safety management and social control, I suggest you look to the RYA, perhaps starting with this page  https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/safety-mangement/Pages/hub.aspx" rel="nofollow - https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/safety-mangement/Pages/hub.aspx  and including discussions with you local RYA reps.

FWIW, my experience is that extravagant, excessively risk averse responses are usually promoted by people who haven't done a proper risk analysis, but are just scare-mongering.  Do your risk assessment and safety planning as the RYA recommend and this should come up with the right answers.

The 'rules' answer to your questions are.

Firstly, the Racing Rules of Sailing have gone to a lot of trouble to protect Organising Authorities and Race Officials from liability by means of rule 4

Your club is quite right to recognise that this is not absolute and that juniors may be legally incapable of taking this responsibility and parents need to be involved.

Race Officials have no authority under the Racing Rules of Sailing to prevent a boat (and its crew) from competing in an event for which it's entry has been accepted.

Rule 76.1 provides that a boat's entry may be rejected or cancelled, or a competitor may be excluded, but only if this is done before the first race of a series.

After a boat's entry has been accepted and the first race, the only way a competitor, boat owner or support person may be excluded from an event is by a decision of a protest committee following a formal hearing under rule 69 Misconduct.

An OOD can't cherry-pick among competitors and choose who to ban and who to allow to race.

Just for starters, as Noah has said, what confidence would you have that a rostered OOD would be competent to assess the competence and capability of any competitor?  It's certainly not within the competencies required of a Race Officer.

If there was genuine concern about levels of competence, (which is probably more appropriate to higher risk environments, like open sea dinghy racing) then I might suggest that you could institute graded fleets or divisions, like Opti Gold, Silver and Green Fleets, then the RO could abandon racing for selected divisions in adverse conditions.

Thank you, Brass. A very considered and comprehensive reply. I decided to post the question here because, like you, I was sure the Club was encroaching into a minefield with RRS 4 & 76 in particular. Given that it's not unusual for under 18's to require a parental declaration of some sort before taking part in events, I wondered what other clubs were doing. Agree with your view that splitting fleets into Gold / Silver etc gives the R.O flexibility to cancel racing for less experienced sailors without having to make a judgement call that could look like discrimination.

Until recently we just scribbled our boat names and sail numbers on a sheet of paper and went sailing. Seems like the good old days are well and truly over!

Under RRS absolutely yes. Rule 4 says the sailor alone is responsible for the decision to race.

You can have a Sailing Instruction obliging a competitor in difficulty to accept help, retire or go ashore, but you and I don't get to decide who races.

Imagine a race officer saying "No kids".

Or what if you allow someone to take part and then they hurt themselves. If you had the authority to stop them racing and didn't do so - does that make you liable for what happens?

Can of worms if you prevent sailors from making their own decision to race.

If a competitor is on the water and unable to cope, you can order them to accept assistance, retire or go ashore. How do you know they are unable to cope before they launch?  And if a competitor is unable to cope - it's their responsibility for being out there, not ours. If we take the decision away from them, do we make ourselves responsible?

Do we have an issue with sailors going afloat for races and then getting into trouble? I don't see much evidence of this at my club and we all have to learn somehow. I imagine we've all ended up on a lee shore or been towed home in shame at some point :)

The separate issue of responsiblity comes in. Getting a parental permission form is certainly a key first step, but you need to be careful the club or OOD is not seen as taking responsiblity. At a previous club I think we expected parents of those below a certain age (lower than 18, can't remember exactly) to be present at the club.

If in doubt the RYA legal dept is the place to ask, as has been suggested. I've always found them to be extremely helpful when needed.

I realise things are different now and we need to be more conscious of risk, especially when dealing with other peoples kids but we shouldn't take away the opportunity for them to have real independence, for a for an afternoon at least. Sailing is one of few sports where kids can have that.

As for safety cover we have it in the club rules that if the safety boat orders you off the water or orders you to board and abandon your boat then you do so or there are sanctions the club can take.

Absolutely not, but what qualifications do you have that make you competent to judge - on sight - someone's ability to cope with conditions - which may change from minute to minute anyway? Quite apart from that, the answer I suggested cannot be construed as a lie. It is a statement of the lack of qualifications to be able to judge.

Experience is one thing. Qualification something else entirely.

I'm unfit, overweight and over 60. My abilities are declining, largely because I don't sail enough. I would be very upset if someone, known to me or not, tried to decide for me whether I could sail or not.

I am very tired of the constant trend towards the attempt to de-risk everything we do. Life is not risk-free and no-one gets out alive. I would rather take the risk of being hurt occasionally than sit on the sofa and watch.

Luckily we don't have any control over who goes sailing or when its a public slipway.

I wouldn't want as a race officer to make that call, I have gone and spoken to people suggesting its possibly not sensible but would not stop someone, the exception might be if they were very young and no parent was around to take a sensible choice. 

We also have another slip way 50 yards away again public and sometimes used by visitors to the area who seem to have purchased boats on the internet (old fireballs and Ents seem to be favourite) and take the family out with no idea what its like or going to get like. Luckily in some cases the launching into Solent chop sorts out a few. Fisherman also use that slip and I have spoken to them when on Rib duty 4 blokes, very little freeboard and no life jackets etc.

This was one of the reasons we bought the rule in.

Have always thought that sailing was the best way for kids to grow up. The "feral" ones tend to drop out very quickly when things get tough. They also seemed to be quite privileged and spoilt. I never missed them. Sailing tends to filter out the soft ones.

Elderly committees who have no regard for the intelligence and decision making skills of young people, however. Not so easy to get rid of.

When I was in my early teens I would go out in F5 singlehanded in a Heron and just blast up and down in the bay. Sure my dad and other club members were keeping a weather eye and had I got into difficulties a boat would have been launched but statistically the worst that would likely happen would be that I got cold and even wetter and had to face the embarrassment of being rescued. I know there was a very small risk of something more serious but it was probably safer than crossing the road....... I realise things are different now and we need to be more conscious of risk, especially when dealing with other peoples kids but we shouldn't take away the opportunity for them to have real independence, for a for an afternoon at least. Sailing is one of few sports where kids can have that.

The OP asked what other clubs do, So,,,,,,,

at my south coast straight off the beach club we operate to RRS4.

The OOD/RO, same thing in our case, has a duty of care to those in his (unpaid) employ ie. RIB crews, if it's deemed dangerous for the RIB crews to launch then it's cancelled.

The OOD also has a duty of care to ensure there is sufficient rescue cover for the day, taking into account conditions, number of competitors and to some extent the quality of the competitors.

However the OOD is not asked to make judgements on competitors abilities and stop them from sailing. the competitors make their own decisions on suitability, or if U18 the parent/guardian/loco parentis on-site makes the decision, NOT the OOD.

Our problems arise when we have insufficient RIB crews for the day or the crews themselves may lack sufficient hours experience for the day, there are times we have sailed but perhaps shouldn't have because the safety umbrella wasn't really up to it.

One could also argue that a OOD ought to cancel just because of sailor quality if there are not enough RIBS for all of them! Thankfully it hasn't come to that.

We operate on a common sense approach where the OOD if in doubt consults with the competitors and his RIB crews.

My view is RRS4 serves to protect the OOD from having to make decisions on sailor suitability that the OOD would quite likely be unqualified to make and could then be exposed to risk of litigation.

Sarge, I started this thread because of decisions already made (thankfully reversed) by an over-eager and inexperienced Club officer.

We've been running Junior training for years and have some very good procedures for managing Junior training and racing. The Club's proposals suddenly put up a barrier for Juniors wishing to take part in Club racing and we reacted really badly to that. It's been a painful couple of months.

The RYA does offer guidance - which I've checked. But as is always the case - the advice is not specific and talks about managing risks, reasonable measures etc.  They will not tell you how to do something or what to put in place.

Interesting views here which suggests clubs have very different approaches to Junior participation and safety. I was asking for feedback on how different clubs tackle this. We've had some really good advice from contributors on this thread but not too many examples of what forms and declarations are being used at other clubs.

The discussion has been really interesting and a lot of fun though :)

Cheers

Chris

In the absence of a parent or guardian, who might the 'loco parentis' on site be?

What criteria do you use to identify the 'in loco parentis' person in the absence of parents or guardians?

Can you give some examples?

Rule 4 is actually a pretty weak reed to protect you from litigation.

If you get some ambulance-chaser or champion of victimhood coming after you, nothing can stop them suing you, but the RYA insurance for qualified Race Officials will give pretty good protection as to outcomes.

Always provided you do a diligent, conscientious job in the first place.

Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald But are we really saying that having a quiet chat with some sailors clearly struggling would open you to possible litigation?

 

No, what I am saying is if the OOD is placed with the responsibility of judging competitors suitability then the OOD could get it wrong and let someone sail who shouldn't have, and it ends in tragedy. Then he is culpable.

That doesn't stop the OOD, or more likely fellow competitors having a chat with your struggling sailor(or parent), along the lines of, looking lively today, you going to be OK, would you like to crew for someone else?

Loco Parentis- appointed adult to act in parents absence?

When I was dragging the kids round the Topper and Kent schools circuit there were actually Loco Parentis forms to sign.

At the club it's a bit less formal, one parent asks another to keep a weather eye while they nip up the shops etc.

In our case Loco Parentis is not a designated club official, even during junior training we insist on parents et al being on site.

Originally posted by piglet Duty of Care

Mate, in among your other helpful and sensible advice, you are throwing around some 'trigger words' in a publicly accessible forum that could well be prejudicial to some conscientious capable race officer who gets sued in the future, or at least deter some people from participating in race management.

Sure RO's and other race officials have 'responsibilites' and 'duties' but lets just leave it at that.

BTW, thanks for the 'loco parentis' stuff.

Pretty good questions.

OK, a parent on site can be held to have consented/agreed/approved of a junior sailor going afloat to compete in a race, and thus might be amenable to rule 4.

I think this argument could run into trouble once the sailor begins racing and conditions or circumstances change:  How can a parent on the shore be 'responsible' for the decision to 'continue racing' on the water?

What's a Junior needs thinking about.

There's obviously all the difference in the world between a 16  year old National Squad member who may be qualified as an Instructor, and a 9 year old at the bottom of Opti Silver Fleet.

As far as I know, while there is an obligation for sailing instructors to have a power boat certificate, there is no obligation for rescue boat crews to know how to sail.

I think that this would make a big difference.

Can you provide any authority for those examples?  They seem a bit way out to me.

Are you seriously saying that the helm (?person in charge?) of a boat who is over 18, by doing just that, assumes parental responsibility for any crew under that age?

Are you saying that the crew of a boat who is over 18, somehow assumes parental responsibility for the person in charge of that boat if that person is under 18?

I am not sure how we deal with this on normal club activities but on courses we ask the parents to write a letter stating they are happy for their child to travel to and from the club alone. On course with under 18s the club is in loco parentis, we prefer parents to not be on site unless they are helping out.

Hunts is also a small club and most of the regular sailors and duty teams (who are volunteers from the sailors) know each other. So on a windy day we know who will usually be ok and who needs a closer eye kept on them.

In terms of forms I believe it is covered in the club rules about youth/junior members and we have had a number of parents join as social members. When there is a good youth group the parents tend to take it in turns to be the nominated adult on site, it works pretty well and we have not had any incidents.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/entertainment/leisure/amateur-sports-club.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.hse.gov.uk/entertainment/leisure/amateur-sports-club.htm

https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/item/sport-safety-and-participation-the-year-in-review-2018-19" rel="nofollow - https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/item/sport-safety-and-participation-the-year-in-review-2018-19

https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/item/duty-of-care-in-sport-making-the-case-for-a-sports-ombudsman-in-the-uk" rel="nofollow - https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/item/duty-of-care-in-sport-making-the-case-for-a-sports-ombudsman-in-the-uk

This good samaritan article quite interesting, a lot of sailors undertaken RYA first aid courses.

https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/item/how-the-uae-s-impending-good-samaritan-law-could-impact-the-sports-and-events-industry" rel="nofollow - https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/item/how-the-uae-s-impending-good-samaritan-law-could-impact-the-sports-and-events-industry

I would point out that sailing is significantly different from lawn tennis, in that there is a non-negligible risk of death arising from participation in sailing events.

The RYA has provided what appears to be pretty comprehensive guidance to assist clubs to discharge their obligations.  here

http://www.rya.org.uk/about-us/rya-policies/safeguarding/Pages/hub.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.rya.org.uk/about-us/rya-policies/safeguarding/Pages/hub.aspx

JimC, I think the RYA guidance is intended to enable clubs to implement safeguarding requirements without obtaining individual legal advice.

You're Right, Agree to you

Most people on this forum probably know their limits and can make their own descisions and don't fall into this category. Unfortunatly a lot of people at our club have no idea of what their limit is. I've never witnessed an OOD saying "you cant sail" but I've seen plenty of more experienced people talking them out of it.

In my opinion it can't hurt to give the OOD the ability to stop people from going out, specially when it could cause more issues and danger to those who then have to rescue them if something went wrong. Obviously if power abuse becomes a thing you just review it

It's been a while since I started this post so a quick update on our situation.

The Club's proposal to allow Race Officers to exercise their own judgement on allowing under-14's to race by telling them they couldn't take part was dropped.

It remains the decision of participants to decide whether or not to race.

In my view this is a victory for common sense.

The R.O has plenty of options available to manage the risks to competitors without having to take responsibility for sailors' decisions which potentially makes the club liable for anything that happens.

Our entry form is very clunky and must be completed before you're allowed to race.

I'm not sure what purpose it serves (the signing on sheets used to contain the customary wording and by signing on you were deemed to have accepted all the conditions and risks). I guess it's something that Clubs have been advised to do nowadays.

The good news, from my perspective, is that the most bizarre elements of what the Club was proposing last year have now been dropped.

When we go back to racing is anyone's guess, but that's another story!

I would suggest:

I'm not aware that this has ever happened,

I can only reiterate:  do your risk assessment as recommended by the RYA and act accordingly.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10991-016-9180-4#Sec2" rel="nofollow - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10991-016-9180-4#Sec2

Thank you for the reference.  This is evidently an increasingly complex and arcane area of UK law.

I don't really think it advances the discussion we are having.  Its main thrust appears to be that volunteers should be sheltered from tort liability just because they are volunteers performing a 'desirable activity'.  This flies in the face of the actual development of negligence law which during, say the period 1970 to 2010 emerged, among other things, as a counter to downright carelessness and incompetence by volunteer and other activity organisers, encouraged by right wing governments as a substitute for effective regulation.

As I and others have said:  do your risk assessment conscientiously as recommended by the RYA, implement appropriate measures, ignoring the various doomsayers and get on with it.