The Zone.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13497
Printed Date: 24 Jun 25 at 7:49pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The Zone.
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Subject: The Zone.
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 5:12pm
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Interesting topic on the Dinghy and boat advice FB group. An Optimist and a Norfolk Punt are approaching a mark together* and the the Punt is clear astern but, almost certainly, sailing faster. The Punt is behind when it reaches three lengths from the mark (roughly 18 metres) but the Oppi has not entered the zone (<7 metres). At this point the rules are clear but what if the Punt gets his bow ahead of the Oppi before the Oppi reaches his 3 length 'zone'? Does the punt 'zone' apply? I think it must but the Punt may already be a full length inside it's 'zone' by this time. * Vanishingly unlikely I know but somebody posed the question........ ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 5:29pm
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I think this is more of a safety issue, who would run down a child in a Oppy with a Punt ? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 5:36pm
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Exactly, I'd expect the Punt to stay out of the way too but, as an academic question it's interesting (ok, not very but maybe I have too much time on my hands....). ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 5:45pm
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Surely the zone that counts is the lead boat's? So the punt has mark room if inside overlapped on the Oppie before 3 oppie lengths. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 5:46pm
Probably work better with a Mirror and a Punt  ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 6:08pm
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The zone that counts is that of the boat nearest the mark. So until the bow of the Punt is closer to the mark than the Oppi the Oppi's zone of around 7 metres is the one that counts. If the punt gets nearer the mark than the Oppi before the Oppi reaches it's zone then I guess the Oppi's zone becomes irrelevant and the 18 metre circle that represents the Punt's zone becomes the one that matters.* But yeah, either way (Mirror or Oppi) if the Punt is inside it is entitled to room and if outside would have to give the oppi room. * might be more interesting with a foiling Moth (3.3m) and a Punt (6.27m) or Thames Rater (9m+?) ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 6:35pm
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Might as well go whole Hog and say AC cat versus Oppy ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 6:46pm
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That would be pretty much the same (just a matter of degree) with the smaller boat being the slower boat. But, with the Moth/Thames Rater conflict the smaller boat is quite likely to be the boat closing from behind. However that would mean the situation, as described, wouldn't arise. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 7:29pm
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Like a lot of these angels dancing on a pin questions I suspect the answer is simpler than its portrayed.
The only time the inside boat doesn't get mark room is if one boat was clear ahead when she reached the zone. Yes, the zone magically expands when the longer boat overtakes the shorter boat. But so what. The boats are overlapped. The shorter boat reached the zone when the longer boat got closer to the mark. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 8:16pm
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I think an Oppy would win without PY adjustment on our small pond, AC wouldn't make the turns. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 10:03pm
 ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Jan 20 at 10:49pm
Not quite right. If boats were overlapped when the first of them reached the zone, the boat inside at that time is entitled to mark-room and continues to be entitled to mark-room even if later the overlap is broken or a new overlap begins (rule 18.2c(1)). That's the very nature of rule 18.2b 'enduring' mark-room. But the question we have to answer here is whether boats were overlapped when 'the first of them reached the zone'.
'Overtakes' is not a word used in the rules? <g> I don't agree that the Opti 'reached' the newly defined zone at the instant the NP got bow out on her: Arguably, the Opti had already reached that zone some time before. My inclination is to say that neither boat was clear ahead when she reached the zone, and boats were not overlapped when the first of them 'reached' the zone: rule 18.2b does not apply, but boats are overlapped in the zone therefore rule 18.2a does apply and whoever is inside is entitled to mark-room. That is to say, firstly, whoever is overlapped inside initially, is entitled to mark-room but if the overlap is broken, mark-room goes off, and is a new overlap subsequently begins, whoever is overlapped inside on the new overlap then gets mark-room. I would have thought that once the NP got her bow in front of the Opti it would be
Otherwise I don't think this interpretation is problematical. From the Opti's POV, while she is bow out, she knows that she has not reached her zone and isn't entitled to mark-room, so at the instant the NP gets bow out, the Opti shouldn't have been expecting to have mark-room. If the Opti had an ounce of sense, she'll be defending her wind like crazy, because if the NP gets over the top of her, she's going to die the death, so arguably if she lets the NP inside her, she's got nobody but herself to blame.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Jan 20 at 10:15am
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I think you're uncharacteristically counting angels mate, but I don't mind having a go.
Yes, I was being a bit sloppy. The zone doesn't change when one overtakes the other, it changes when one is closer to the mark than the other, but it matters not, they are overlapped, and the rules don't distinguish between overlapped A slightly ahead and overlapped B slightly ahead anyway. So when does a boat reach the zone? Now, I submit that there is no definition of reaching the zone, the definitions states a boat is in the zone or not, and she's in the zone when any part of her hull is in it. 
So, in the L diagram the zone is the blue circle. No boat is in the zone, so no boat has reached it. In the R diagram a second later the orange zone applies, both boats are in the zone, so both boats have reached it. So that's the point at which clear ahead, clear astern applies. They reached the zone when the zone expanded. If you really want to dance on pins, if you consider boats gybing downwind that must gybe to make the mark, then it is possible to imagine blue being clear ahead and entitles to mark room when orange becomes closer to the mark and the boats have reached the newly expanded zone. 
But really, its not any different from any other situation where a boat clear ahead is further from the mark. The fact that the zone expanded doesn't seem to me to change anything. Actually the more complicated situation, it seems to me, is if the shorter boat becomes nearer to the mark, and the zone contracts such that neither boat is in the zone. But in practice that's still pin dancing, because if the boats are overlapped there isn't a problem, and if they are not overlapped there probably still isn't a problem, and in any case there's always 18.2.e |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Jan 20 at 10:45am
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From what I can work out, in practice it actually doesn't matter. Even with my Moth/Rater scenario where the Moth would be, potentially, quite capable of accelerating past the Rater. I can't think of a situation where the change in the size of the zone would change the rights/obligations of the two boats. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 Jan 20 at 11:12am
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Reminded me of an incident some years ago on Lake Garda, Oppi race going on, when a fleet of performance sail boats steamed through middle of Oppi race. Vaguely recall performance boats were German. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Jan 20 at 3:53pm
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Just a related thought, new rules next year and somebody mentioned that they had seen a reference to changing the overlap/finishing requirement to be hull only rather than, as at present, hull and appendages. I haven't come across anything like it but does anybody know if there is going to be a change? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 13 Jan 20 at 4:02pm
I doubt we will know much until June time when the new rules are usually released. Unless someone from the rules panel fancies giving us a preview. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 13 Jan 20 at 8:33pm
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Draft Rules 2021 were posted here http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13375&title=20212024-draft-racing-rules-of-sailing" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13375&title=20212024-draft-racing-rules-of-sailing
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Jan 20 at 9:54pm
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So it does appear they are going to change the 'overlap' def to hull only. Should discourage assy boats from barging in at a leeward mark Interesting that Windsurfers don't have a zone at all, seems like a bargers charter to me..... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 13 Jan 20 at 10:00pm
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