Its does illustrate how much extra profit there is in a 'class legal' Laser though.

HI Sam

But then they sell it without the plaque to some junior who then finds its an illegal boat for the Regional champs etc. Not all parents would know anything about the problem.

I think ILCA should try to stop them selling them until they sort out the issue.

It is a complete mess and all the parties involved seem to be doing their damnedest to kill the golden goose.

Originally posted by 423zero The class association needs to provide leadership on this issue, are they categorically stating they will not allow Lasers built by Laser are not class compliant?

Yes they are. They have said only boats with an ILCA plaque (i.e., as of the dispute with LPE, the ILCA 'replica' of a Laser) will be class legal at ILCA run events.

You couldn't make it up..............

If you want to know how we got to this position go to SA , click on dinghy anarchy, then  LPE given the boot. Then wade thought 70 odd pages of pages of posts.

Fill your boots guys 

TBH I think it would be good for the sport and the Laser if somebody did form a UKKSCA (or even a UK Laser Sailors Assn.). I suspect though that, unless it was formed and supported by LPE the first solicitors letter from ILCA would see it rapidly wound up.

When clubs enquire if they can allow 'Lasers' to sail, what will be reply ?

Sheer bloody mindedness 

The RYA gave the Rooster a PN so I'd look on that as tacit approval. It appears that LPE are legally entitled to build the boats and call them Lasers so why should the RYA attempt to prohibit them from racing in the UK?

We even missed their vote to change their class rules, never mind the their possible name change in territory’s controlled by LPE . Or even the effect of WS Frand policy on the class and its builders.

No we were all happy in our own little world , talking tosh about yardsticks and the lee bow effect.  

Interesting that the photo has the Laser Insignia on the sail, clearly they aren’t doing anything illegal, design register ran out years ago. Morally they should do something to prevent the laser race being passed off as a laser. Clearly they can’t continue the Laser numbers, so starting numbers again, perhaps with a prefix LR would be a way to go.

A fantastic opportunity to get competitive boat at know down price, interesting to see where the residuals end up.

Good opportunity for the beach club holiday companies to renew their fleets

With a new carbon rig, at a similar discount, and there soon could be four full lasers to choose from. 

I think UKLA would disagree with you. Turn up at a CA sanctioned event, tell them you have a club Laser and I am pretty sure you would be invited to leave.

Something punitive knowing the GL panel.....

Yes they would but their event, their rules. There's still nothing to suggest that a 'Club Laser' is anything other than legit, it just isn't an ILCA dinghy. I'd be interested to see what the Great Lakes organisers take is.

 Which according to the new International Laser Class Association branding exercise is called "The ILCA Dinghy"

To be fair Tink I don't think is likely to be a cheaper resin, the Laser/ILCA dinghy uses Polyester resin and CSM, probably about the cheapest fibreglass arrangement there is! There are some foam stringers and areas where the hull get extra material though (which was the crux of the most recent fallout between ILCA/LP/GSA).

I would imagine that the resin and CSM has a spec, approval and approved vendors  (a bit like the button on the sail) if you can work out side these limitations you will make cost savings. Similarly the spars are made within a tight tolerance and relaxing them will reduce costs.

Manufacturing stuff to a specification is relatively easy, the processes and proving the parts are in specification adds cost. The difference in cost between the button and non button sail isn’t all profit, much is to do with the extra checks that have to be made and certificated. 

Apparently the spars vary considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer too.

Laser (see what I did there) cutting and a visual inspection should guarantee sufficient accuracy.

Small volume manufacturers like Hartleys and RS are run by enthusiasts who actually sail the boats and care about dinghy sailing. This is clearly not the case with Laser.

They've just made one of the most popular club racing boats in the history of dinghy sailing cheaper than a decent E-Mountain Bike....  and marketing clearly at grass roots club sailors, sans bullsh*t... they even offer a finance package making a new boat accessible for more people.

Way to go Laser.... and this is coming from someone who wouldn't have peeved on them if the factory was burning not so long ago.

That’s the way I see it too with one difference, an American builder building none class legal boats in Portugal 

Nobody knows for sure at the moment how it will pan out. But as it stands the Racing boat with its WS plaque is a class legal boat which can be used in ILCA races from the Olympics down to club opens. The club boat is not a class legal boat but it’s unlikely ( but possible) that most clubs would stop you sailing it at club races. 

It’s all a bit of a mess , with lots of ball in the air. Will LPE start it’s own class for its own boats ? Will LPE be reinstated as a class builder ? Who is going to be the new builder/builders ? Will the Law Courts be involved? Are just some of the questions.

At the moment knowbody knows and we await further info from the ILCA. 

I think you are very wrong to group PSA and PSA with LPE. They have very different company ethics.

I do agree about your point about RS , less so about Harleys. They have ridden rough shod over class associations in the past. 

Its about £25 a sail for the button I also doubt there is any difference. The QA on genuine Laser sails always has been questionable. I remember checking a batch that was bought by our club members some years ago. The difference was massive between sails.

Does make you question how the 'replica' manufacturers can produce a better product with more consistent quality though eh.... (the last batch of replicas I checked were pretty much identical when laid out).

Spars it depends on how close the extrustion die is to being replaced. A mast from a new die will have thinner walls than a mast from a die that is needing replacement. 

Right up to the point when those ex centre boats make their way into the wider market and are sold as class legal boats...up to the point where someone gets binned for having one at a UKLA event and then leaves the sport for good.

 

It seams preposterous that it has come to this, fair play on ILCA ensuring boats are in specification but surely answer is that LPE come back in the fold.

All new boats get an introductorydiscount, and perhaps LPE has stock, but I suspect if the club laser gets traction it will only be 1K cheaper than a legitimate boat in a year. The AD duck add is also light on details, spec of ropes, kicker etc. 

Originally posted by deadrock It is not just UKLA/ILCA events where you have to be class-legal; it's any race run under WS Rules, which means any race at your local club, provided that it organises races under the WS Rules. A Race Committee cannot amend the class rules without the CA's permission, or pretend they don't apply. Anyone turning up to race with a Club Laser runs the risk of being protested by other competitors.

That's not really true.

So long as you enter a PY race honestly, it's up to the RC to allocate you a PY.

If the NOR only invites Lasers (or other dinghies of recognised classes or whatever)  to race that might be different.

The class rules of a handicap race are the rules of the handicap scheme.

Locally, we can run a race for 'Lasers' and allow ILCA dinghies to race against Lasers with replica sails. We do that, because we actually value having people come out and race.

Plenty of yachts racing outside their OD class rules under IRC, it's the same rulebook.

Plenty of boats racing that don't have functioning class associations or class rules.

The final irony would be if clubs started sending in PY returns for 'club lasers' separately and they got a slower PY.

Obviously ILCA-endorsed races are for ILCA-endorsed boats sailed by ILCA members.

Possibly LP-Midlands or whatever they are has decided not to bother with ILCA and just knock out club/training boats. That would be a commercial decision not to be taken lightly, but take away the costs of supporting world level racing and all that, the break-even factory gate price of a non-compliant Laser could be much less than £4k. The rig is £150 worth of poles, the sail is £200 from Rooster, the foils are low tech heavy mouldings, the fittings and rope a couple of hundred tops. The hull is 60s-tech GRP. No development to amortise, not much marketing needed, resorts, training centres and club sailors will buy them.

Maybe the Aero has made the official ILCA Laser game not worth the candle any more?

And the boat's not that awful Trabant Blue colour.

Where's the 'facepalm' emoji 

if so I stand corrected - I thought they were coming out of Banbury, thanks for the clarification. 

I'm basing my assertion thy're UK produced due to sharing the same junction on the M40 as 8 stackers with new lasers reasonably frequently.  They're often in the middle lane taking the 422 to Northampton.

Of course, I've no idea if it's the Banbury site that are still producing these club boats- it would make sense logistically.

1) The owner of LPE has talked about moving all boat production post brexit.

2) LPE have posted pics of boats being made at their new site in Portugal ( not lasers though )

3) The Long Buckley site is for sale.

Its just a case of joining the dotes, on the other hand it could be adding 2+2 and getting five. Only time will tell