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More General Yardstick discussion

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13444
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 12:49am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: More General Yardstick discussion
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: More General Yardstick discussion
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 12:22pm
Whilst we're at it, this is possibly a better subject to chat about the PY system within.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website



Replies:
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 1:16pm
HISC adjust locally via the Racing committee. 

They have put quite a lot of thought into it and the numbers can change if a fleet dominate the results. The method of coming to the 'HISC figures' can be found on the following link.
https://www.hisc.co.uk/media/1098/hisc_handicap_description.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.hisc.co.uk/media/1098/hisc_handicap_description.pdf

These numbers are still not perfect and every dog will have its day. The Solo are generally very good on a light/medium day.
If it is windy and there are a lot of spinnaker legs the RS200 and 29ers are pretty good. 

In other days/courses other boats are better but generally every dog can have it's day. 


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 1:40pm
For us its a committee decision and we also submit returns to the RYA!

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 1:46pm
Thanks for that Fatboi that's an excellent link and document.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 3:02pm
I think Hayling strongly believe that in tidal conditions the adverse tide effects slower boats to a greater extent so penalise the faster boats.

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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 3:29pm
Well the faster boats passing thru the tide get a better lee bow effect so it all makes sense to me :-)

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 4:39pm
Cannot vote in this one. At our club handicaps are changed by the main committee but the only time they have been is to allow our one n12 to  use the age handicap that is recommended by the class . There are two reasons why we don’t do it more, 1) they work really well as they are and 2) because we are a small club any class py changes are really personal py changes. 
On the point of returns, we sail mostly pursuit sailing so not much point Smile


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 4:49pm
We all Merlin and 12 age yardsticks, but otherwise stick with them if they exist.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 8:13am
We tend to use the RYA handicaps but allow the N12 and Merlin age related bonuses.

There have been adjustments in the past though when a class is obviously wrong for our water.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 9:41am
Why have age related bonuses for Merlins and 12s but not other classes?  I appreciate the designs have evolved over the years, but let’s be honest no 30 year old boat is truly competitive whether it be a Merlin, a Laser or a 420.


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 10:46am
My Laser's 28 and feels truly competitive against world champs in Masters. In some of my other classes, 30+ year old craft have finished 1-3 in national titles, one of them beating more than one Olympian to win more than one nationals. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 11:51am
Age related numbers are not usually a simple matter of years but are relevant where classes (usually dev classes) have made fundamental changes, say from tin to carbon rigs, to allow pre-change boats to remain competitive. The Laser class have not made any which would result in a step change in performance until the mk2 sail and the carbon top mast (and they claim these don't improve performance only durability).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 2:39pm
At Netley we also apply a tidal correction factor, though as our tides are not as strong as those at HISC we apply a 'lighter touch' - ditto through our sailing Committee we are happy to amend PYs that seem blatantly wrong. This is not a case of giving a poor boat or sailor a leg up, but a recognition that our waters suit some boats better than others,
Regarding the use of a further correction factor for age amongst the development classes, we're aware of the need to be even handed, so for instance an older IC might well get the PY it would have had some years back. Rather than criticize the Merlins and 12s for trying to be inclusive for their older variants, there is an argument that maybe more classes should be aware of the large numbers of older boats out there. It could be age related, or simply something as simple of  a carbon spars v alloy or a pre-frp/frp split, or as has already been pointed out, if there was a major change adopted by  a class. 

Right now I'm trying to complete the book charting the history of the 5o5 and in the last few days, I've been looking at the changes in hull shapes (but in a bit more detail than in the recent 'One design or two' article). So here you have a fleet that has a clear point of change - boat numbers of 8400 marking the boundary between two quite distinct notions of the hull form. Now if there was class racing for the 5o5 at club level, would it be fair for someone with a good boat, but with a 83xx sail number - to be sailing off the same PY as the later hull forms? 
Ditto the Contender.... it is easy to say "sail a newer boat" and that is of course the answer, but it doesn't do much for inclusivity.

If the above is in part an argument that there might be a better way, would that be a bad thing.
BUT - it would need a top down, fully inclusive coming together of the stakeholders, innovators and wise minds to ensure that any possible solutions are actually 'better' that the current status quo. But this would cut across so many other topics, starting with 'where is the sport going' over the next 30 years (ie, up to 2050) that the likely outcome is that ...nothing will happen!

D


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Dougal H


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Why have age related bonuses for Merlins and 12s but not other classes?  I appreciate the designs have evolved over the years, but let’s be honest no 30 year old boat is truly competitive whether it be a Merlin, a Laser or a 420.

Spot on, if there was an age allowance there may be less unloved boats in the dinghy park, sailing would be more accessible and participation would be up. 

The issue will be separating the results in the returns, this year the list was full of notes saying ‘please separate different versions in returns’ (paraphrasing) 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Why have age related bonuses for Merlins and 12s but not other classes?  I appreciate the designs have evolved over the years, but let’s be honest no 30 year old boat is truly competitive whether it be a Merlin, a Laser or a 420.


Because development classes have very significant changes in hull shape etc.


Whilst classes like Ospreys have boats 25 years plus old ( with a new rig and smartening) which are still winning championships


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by A2Z

let’s be honest no 30 year old boat is truly competitive whether it be a Merlin, a Laser or a 420.

Current world champion GP14 is 25 years old. Another 25 year old boat was top 5.

Both were home built too........



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