I don't have a 'current ride' - well not one I race and not one defined as a boat; but it's still sailing when there's wind and hand powered when there's not... a bit like a Trireme I guess, but just one oar, and freeriding for sh*ts and giggles rather than imperial invasion and looting being the primary objectives.

Any 'rides' that I would want to own have no local class racing - neither in my main place of residence over here in the EU, nor in the centre of the pitiful island I sadly inhabit to earn a crust during the week.

I guess I could compromise and worry about such things as what a spreadsheet says at the end of a good or bad sesh, but honestly I'm over all that for the time being.  

It looks likes Jim was right all along.  I now accept the future of club dinghy racing is handicap racing.... 

So dear Graeme, keeping taking the pills my friend, they won't cure you, but they will at least manage the symptoms for a while longer.

I think that about sums it up, nicely put

I think it would actually revive dinghy sailing because with the right mind set you could race older uncompetitive boats and not feel so penalised as you can see your relative performance improve. 

Horses for courses.

The problem with any handicap system is a boat like this that does one "thing" especially well. On a club round the cans course in preferably marginal planing conditions your will not see where an RS300 went even off 970. 

On a triangle/sausage course they perform much more averagely due to the long run.

I would guess that most of the returns are club ones on medium sized lakes where they sail round the cans - hence the low PY number.

When I go off to these large handicap events over the Winter and race against 100+ boats its very clear that the handicap is not perfect relative to other similar boats but I still enjoy those events by setting myself a target for the day (i.e. finish in top third) and that makes it worthwhile.

My club does tweak the PYs up or down from the RYA suggested number based upon results for the class. In general this means that singlehanders with one sail get hit and that crewed boats and asymmetric get a boost compared to the RYA number as a general rule. 

There is also a series that is raced upon dynamic personal handicap whereby your previous results push your personal handicap up or down - I do not like this series as the conditions last week might have suited my boat and then this week the conditions are different and I have a huge mountain to climb to sail to my new harder handicap in conditions that are not suited.

In my experience people who jump classes 'because of the PY' are often unable to face the uncomfortable truth that they are not as good as they think they are (plus many classes take a bit of time to learn how to go fast).

My advice if you are mainly going to sail on Handicap is to sail a boat that fits you physically and suits your style of sailing and just enjoy the race for what it is. If you're not winning perhaps it's you and not the boat that needs to change

One more frustration to add though - I do agree that having a fast boat can be good as you get away and into clean air, but on the downside when sailing on a lake there is often a big gust that comes through in the 5 or 10 minutes that the other slower boats are still racing and you get to sit by the finishing line watching someone who you were miles ahead of grinning as they boost over the line!

Now it just so happens that I've been on the receiving end of some of the PY pain - when I've had a boat that I want to write about (and that can range from a Unit to a Mirror 14, a Hit to a 'classic' 5o5 (ie, small kite, no carbon or fancy foils) and in the end, you just have to 'suck it and see'. I would hope that in these more enlightened times that an equitable solution can be found that rewards the sailors who sail the best irrespective of their mounts. That said, I'm more than aware that there are boats that are sailing under a PY that is generous to the point that allows success to someone who hasn't sailed that well/bothered that much with boat preparation to win against a better sailor. Now allowing that would be as wrong as some turning a blind eye to some of the more lurid tales of PY abuses - so I hope that taking the RYA figures as a starting point is fair- but stressing that it is only a starting point. It would after all be just as easy to set a figure that creates that much talked off 'bandit' boat,

In this case I would hope that by setting a sensible PY as a starting point, with the understanding that the numbers will be reviewed (as all our numbers are) that we don't so much get things right, but avoid getting them too wrong. 

But back to the original post....a while back I was lucky enough to be RO for the Miracle Nationals (and will be so again next year I hope)  and had the pleasure of seeing a boat from the same bit of water as the 'Man of Kent' being very well sailed.. and we all recall those 'lurid tales' that I referred to just now when the Miracle and it's PY was the object of much of his angst, even though it was clear to me that this was a well prepared and well sailed boat.

Maybe when the V3 gets launched I ought to go and set the PY for that as well.....

D

Years ago we did a Chichester Snowflake series in a Salcombe Yawl, we sailed on the number that Salcombe use; CYC knocked a minute off our handicap number until we stopped winning; seemed fair enough.

And while you are at it iGRF, you could come up with a fairly easy rating on a 1 to 10, or a simple percentage factor of where that boat sits of a scale of sailability. That too shouldn't be beyond the clever minds - or even, just the practical minds that are out there.

If a boat is an unpleasant tippy ride downwind in breeze, or is difficult to recover -then mark it as such. On a small boat boat A might be a star, only to be a total disaster in a wind over tide situation off Hayling.

Sadly, that too won't happen......

D

Your desire to help this lad is admirable, but it does come back to the point that Kaz made which is that if the lad has decided he does not want (for whatever reason) to sail one of the larger more established classes because the Farr is a better boat for him, his size, experience, where he sails, colour of the hull....whatever, then he has to accept that when you pick a smaller class it is probably going to have a sub-standard PY for a while so you better make sure you love the boat and love sailing it!

If the grown ups followed their hearts rather than their heads then perhaps smaller classes would have a fair PY 

Actually, many other sports are far more subjective or "anti competitive" in the way they assess and handicap gear and players. Look at the "success handicaps" in motor racing, where top cars will be loaded up with lead to slow them down in some very successful big-budget categories. In the BTCC, since 2015 the leading car has had to go into each day's racing with 75kg of ballast, to slow it down.  Le Mans GTE cars have similar rules.  Or check out horse race handicapping, or local bicycle racing where a subjective decision can move you up or down a grade. Then there are events like the Tour de France where the organisers can shape the entire course to suit the home-grown heroes, or salary caps in other sports.

The entire system of grading in sport can be seen as anti-competitive, because normally the guys who finish last in the top grade are vastly better players than the guys who finish first in the bottom grade, and yet the rules allow the latter to win more than the former. 

I tend to think that a lawsuit based on PY would have been laughed out of court since it appears that the issue is that certain individuals, some of them quite inexperienced and inexpert, have a subjective opinion that does not agree with the maths involved. 

The PY lawsuit with legs would be the one where the PY volunteers launch defamation cases against some of their critics.

The champion sailors don't often win because they can't realistically get much better. Day in, day out they tend to sail at 99.XXXX%.  So what happens is that every time they race, they know that their personal handicap result is down to whether the guys who sail at 30-80% happen to sail at 31-81% that day, or whether it's a day when the wind favours the slower sailors for various reasons.  The champion's results are therefore not down to what they do, but what the other sailors do, which makes the handicap result meaningless.  The champion may therefore just as well go out and train rather than race.

The person with the older uncompetitive boat also finds that if they sail it perfectly, they can be wopped on personal handicap by someone with a brand new rocketship of the same class, who finishes 10 minutes back instead of their normal 15 minutes back. Again, the issue is that the top sailors tend to be consistently good and cannot easily improve, whereas slow sailors tend to be inconsistent and can improve and therefore the result is out of the top sailors' hands.

I'm race officer for a club with an Olympic silver medallist, who just defended his world title. On both PY and personal handicap, he gets hammered week after week by sailors who can't even enter a championship with a realistic hope of getting around the course inside the time limit. The same applies to the two sailors in the club who got third in their world titles this year. That's dealing with a situation where the craft are of radically different design to the rest of the fleet, but it still shows that even being on the world's podium is not enough to allow you to win if the handicaps are tough enough.

Personal handicapping, including personal handicapping pursuits, are great for the beginners and slower sailors, but they are problematic for top sailors. That's fine since top sailors shouldn't (IMHO) be aiming to win club races, but it's something to consider.

I didn't say that anyone should be really bothered what the top sailors think. I know they don't drive club racing. I said IMHO they shouldn't normally worry about club racing.

I was just saying that the experience in coming from a scene where personal handicap is endemic is that many of them don't find it challenging.

On the Aero - sorry but I do think that the handicap is way wrong on that one. No idea if its because of GRFs conspiracy theory of the dark forces favouring the big manufacturers or because its a boat that is sailed by many and the result is a PY that is very kind to the good guys that then travel to events!?!

The Mk2 sail is much better than the old sail Rupert, it has been a step change for people and not just the 'new sail' boost (in my experience).

As for the Aero 7 it is significantly lighter and with a full carbon rig. Comparing it to the new Laser Arc or C7 rigs would be a better comparison IMO.

All,

whilst this is just what the forum needed, an interesting topic that allows everybody to 'pile in' can we all be careful about 'naming names' of those who are not just innocent but have no idea that they are being discussed on an open platform.....

D

".....in part because the alternative of sailing an Aero just made me want to give up on the sport"

That is rather harsh.  The Aero is a great boat even if not for you .. or me for that matter although I have enjoyed it on a number of occasions and hope to again if offered the chance in the future.  I doubt it was intended to monopolise all segments of the future market and replace all other alternatives !

'Dissing' this class or that class in passing whether intentionally or not just distracts from the subject in play and does tend to drive a significant number away from these sort of discussions.   They might 'lurk' for a while but then they may well find better things to do with their time after a while as well.

Besides Cirrus - your a man who clearly enjoys having his own opinion :-)

If the RYA prescribed to the clubs when to change the handicaps within their own data false beard sales would decline.

of course it would take consensus amongst each clubs sail coms to use such a system, so perhaps false beard sales would increase?

Something about about kettle and pot comes to mind .. now what was it  ?   ;-)   But the real irony is that you now very neatly prove the point raised even in replying.   As will I  ... so  'Bye' should suffice.

Umm, that is not what I said. I do think the Solo would be nicer to sail with the lower part of the sail soft rather than fully battened though. Just a personal opinion. Clearly the Solo has done amazingly well and lots of people sail them so they can sail against all the others that sail them...but as mentioned on other posts that does not mean its a boat without fault!

I find the Solo fully battened sail to be surprisingly responsive in the light and fluky stuff ... the battens never stick through the tack and the front of the sail is easy to read; not as much of a PIA as a soft sail with a sticking top batten.

Yes, definitely but FB has certain characteristics that are 'built in' like the inability to feather the sail and switch off the power. 

I know the Spice rig is only adequate, The square top ISO main I use is better but my Demon Design VG5 Raceboard sail is utterly wonderful so I know it can be done.

At the expense of a complex combination of masts and sails that make buying a second hand boat ...... complex. I would love you enlighten me

Probably cheaper in the long run than a Laser rig to stay competitive.

A Laser Master and coach once told me he was replacing his sail for every major event, so not cheap to run.

Not really making any point or conclusions they are Apples and Pears in terms of boats, just the sort of thing I like to think about. 

A new Solo is about 1.5k more than an Aero and 2.5k more than. Laser which with the Solo residuals make it a very good investment. Would probably be less than £500 a year, ignoring sails. 

On the other hand a ten year old Solution is only 3k

Brett Bayer, pro Laser coach and Mark's rival for the title of most successful Laser Masters sailor of all time, gets 30 days of top-level sailing out of each sail. That's at least 5 top-level championship regattas.

Those guys have won more Laser Masters worlds than anyone, so they can't be wrong with their estimate of sail ageing.

Important to it's second hand value? Probably yes. I would guess a bandit on a particular type of water would be more desirable, particularly with some older folk who want to hang on to some of the glory.

Important to a boats corrected time? There are certainly some massive bandits over a series on our piece of water. Conversely there are some slower boats, particularly among the junior classes that are never going to do well, their handicaps are wrong by a large margin on the south coast with a couple of knots tide and occasional big waves. Mind you that does ensure the young upstarts don't get any of the silverware which should rightly go to the adults. According to some calculation I did a few years ago, comparing average results for classes in different types of venue, the slower boats in some cases were out by a hundred + points.


Important to the sport generally? Yes, I think so. After the trials of a week at work, family and general life pressures most sailors REALLY look forward to a Sunday on the water racing. Some effort to make the PY system as accurate as possible is incredibly important otherwise the whole exercise becomes nothing more than a weird Escheresque animation. Maintaining power boats, learning OOD skills, laying the course, running the club, dragging folk out of bed to do their duties just so that some ever aging folk in boats can sail around in meaningless circles shouting rule numbers at each other. Meanwhile  some knobhead (not refering to anyone in particular) on the com watches from the balcony saying ".....of course, the only way to get a fair race is in class racing", using that argument to rationalise their complete inability to use their brains, suppress their fear and try something different........IMO clubs and the RYA should put as much effort into the quality of grassroots Sunday handicap sailing as is possible. I can't overstate this.

As Rupert and others have said (including myself in the past) Different published PY's for different waters, 4 or 5 categories maybe? It would certainly improve the current situation. Still not perfect because of different weather conditions but over a decent series fairer............Single/a few race handicap series are always going to be more of a lottery no matter how you juggle the figures.

A question to those in the know: How much does the RYA spend on PY improvements? How important is it to them? ........or are they also watching from the balcony?

Edited. punctuation and corrected "exorcised". Mind you, might have been a Freudian slip.

RYA participation says there are 200k+ people doing  small boat racing. If we all put the cost of a pint you would have more than enough to write an awesome bit of user friendly race officer software,

Sail numbers could be used to reference age, development of boat,

Weather conditions could be logged plus type of venue 

And I am sure many other factors 

But obviously we shouldn’t need to the RYA should be on the case 

*I would revert to a 2-3 digit number, 1% accuracy is more than enough IMHO 

Yes, that was my point. IMHO there is no benefit in the 0.1% resolution (relative to the 'scratch' handicap) of the present system and the 1% resolution of a 'scratch' = 100 system of my youth was completely adequate.

* my dad built an electro-mechanical timer/start sequence computer for our club back in the '70s. It ran a bomber clock and a load of multi-step GPO telephone relays and resolved to 1/10th of a minute (i.e. 6 seconds) in the days when corrected times were calculated from elapsed whole minutes with the remaining seconds just added on. Many of the club stalwarts decided to was not accurate enough and would not use it.

In any system there will be outriders of data but I looked at results from the ‘premier league’ clubs and national mixed fleets events there is a even spread of classes with. I haven’t found any results where say 50% of the top 10% are the same class. Clearly some boats will be better suited to certain conditions but  that goes back birth of sailing with local one design classes. When ever this forum is asked about dinghy choice the top answer is always- what do they sail at you club?

Put it another way, is there any other sport where male, female, young, old, fit, unfit, individual, pairs, mixed pairs, parent and child, novices, Olympians, relatively rich, relatively poor etc etc can all compete together 

Again, with all due respect. You don't seem to understand the nuanced affect of tide on different types of boat. You all know that sailing against the tide is not helpful and that seeking out slower tide is helpful but beyond that you seem to have given it no thought, and why should you? Most of you don't have to deal with it in handicap races. The impact of tide on the various classes (speed related) is very large indeed, fact. 

Tink, It makes a mockery of the word "Compete" for many classes when sailing in tide.

Originally posted by iGRF Originally posted by Sussex Lad Same question again because I'm sure some on here know the answer:  How much is spent on improving the PY? How important is improving the current system to the RYA.   I don't know the answer, I did have a spirited attempt at finding out a bit more, but you can be sure whatever budget is allocated, it will be a fraction of what they spend on masseurs, psychobabblists, choking ping pong players et al on squad training.

I suspect you are right, all credit for trying to find out though. I doubt the RYA spend much on developing it either, maybe some costs in stationary. Happy with the status quo probably. 

Last I heard the PY committee was staffed by volunteers, I have no wish to offend them as the are probably following a brief and in that respect doing a first class job. Should any of them read this, Thank you for your work.

I take it you sail on a pond and are happy with the current system Zeon?

Clubs being unwilling to deviate from the published numbers is a topic that has been discussed to death elsewhere. I'ts an old topic and we all know what the score is. The very few coastal clubs that are brave enough to do it crunch their numbers from their own insufficient data or maybe they construct some deviously fiendish formula and hope the new members waiting list is enough to insure against the inevitable fallout......The logical solution, i.e. the solution that avoids club disputes and is produced from better data is to persuade  the PY folk to have a go.

I sail on a tidal estuary and I really find it hard to fault the PY system.

Don’t think there any sailing clubs on ponds

Since it's nearly panto season "Oh yes there are"

Frensham Pond Sailing Club for starters  https://www.sailfrensham.org.uk" rel="nofollow">https://www.sailfrensham.org.uk