The future of the “Laser” (ILCA)
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13418
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 2:29am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The future of the “Laser” (ILCA)
Posted By: andyk
Subject: The future of the “Laser” (ILCA)
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 12:10pm
|
Now the boat has been chosen for the Olympics until 2024, I just wonder if this is the opportunity to tie up the next few Olympics as well. They have time on their side. The rig has to all intents and purposes, been pretty well sorted, especially if the spars are changed to carbon. It is time to sort out the deck moulding. Most of us find the deck and cockpit area simply very uncomfortable, in my case to the point of changing class. Several of our established classes have successfully brought themselves into the 21st century by doing exactly this. Any ideas anyone? |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 1:07pm
|
I think top priority at the moment will be to get builders for the current boat sorted out...
|
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 3:26pm
I don't own a Laser and that was a major factor affecting the decision for me too. But I think if they do make major changes to the deck layout thet will go agains the strict one design ethos and is bound to alienate a considerable number of existing Laser sailors. And it won't persuade me to return as I am happy with the Blaze. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 8:33pm
|
The only reason the Laser still exists is that is historical numbers and as close to one design as a reasonable budget will buy you. Any major changes will destroy the class. Only change required is a simple vac form moulding to stop the mainsheet snagging the corner is, sub £1 to produce so £25 retail but everyone would buy. The fact that far from Olympic athletes weekend warriors come back weekend after weekend and enjoy the laser shows the appeal of a less than perfect but perfectly good design. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 9:10pm
|
It's a good hull let down by it's 'beach boat' original concept and a too strict adherence to the one design principle. A better deck layout and some freedom of fittings to allow us short 4rses to tailor the ergonomics to our stature would have made a huge difference. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 8:10am
You know the new all carbon rigs are not intended for adoption to replace any of the current rigs right? Plus there is the fight between LP and PSA for carbon rig supremacy as both have produced options. The Laser/ILCA dinghy is as current with the ali bottom section and boom and carbon (or ali) top section.
------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 8:27am
....and the crappy deck layout and awful (antiquated) rudder. Why change it when ready made 'better' alternatives are already out there with modern construction?
|
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 8:28am
| Is it just coincidence that two of the most popular uk singlehanders are wrangling over design and build changes? Is it the sales of some of the new designs just causing panic? |
Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 9:31am
|
I think in the case of the Laser (which I race at club level), its a case of comparing our low value for money and rubbish rigs with the sophisticated rigs on all the other competitors. And in the case of the Solo (which I race against a lot), its a case of the aging demographic wanting a bit more comfort in their old age. |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 10:03am
It's better in quite a few objective terms than many other boats that have survived, so while the current numbers are a major strength they are not the boat's only reason for existence.
|
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 1:16pm
The rudder is easy to improve, just allow the leading edge to be vertical. Ok it won't be a complete answer, only a new blade would do that but it would make the boat lighter on the helm and a little nicer to sail. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 4:53pm
|
I sail a laser for a week or two each year at a activities/beach resort holiday. The boats are in a well used situation, knackered (hence won’t name the company) every boat feels different but by keeping it flat and adjust controls it is possible to get the helm to feel fine. It is quite easy to sail a laser rudderless (with the tiller tied), so if you’re sailing with minimal use of rudder, which surely is our aim, the rudder issues evaporate.
------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 5:02pm
|
The rudder would be much improved by simply allowing you to move the pivot hole. Major changes won’t happen, and as for the “carbon” top mast I’d love to know the actual carbon %.
|
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 5:22pm
|
I used to think the rudder was an issue as well.
I since got better at sailing. i now think the laser rudder teaches good technique. It’s not an issue as long as you learn to sail it well. I never found it that uncomfortable either. Having said all that. I now have an Aero. Mainly because it’s just more fun. Andy ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 7:53pm
My understanding is that the topmast design is intended to replicate the alloy spar as well as possible, so the carbon content won't be spectacularly high. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 8:19pm
|
TBF that is an impossible task, either it will be stiffer or lighter (by a significant margin) and either way it's dynamic response will be much faster than alloy. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 8:32pm
| The tale is that the layup is a complex mixture of glass and carbon to get the properties right. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 8:40pm
|
I'll bet they are quicker though, or why bother........ ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 8:52pm
|
They bother to make them longer-lasting, without the fatigue problem of highly stressed alloy spars. I do agree that just allowing the rudder to hang more vertically would make the boat feel nicer. It would just reduce the weight on the helm, which is noticeable even when you are sailing well (ie inside the top 10 nationally). Tink, in a breeze and chop on a Laser you're actually using a lot of helm to get over the waves fast. Check Schiedt's tiller waggling here; [TUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIg0ZGRgTwg[/TUBE]
|
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 9:11pm
Bob is the man! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 9:13pm
I still bet they're faster....... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 9:14pm
Yep some carbon may have been waved in the general direction of it. It’ll be sandbagged with more glass which is something like a third of the stiffness of IM carbon And or a load of hoop direction material. What beggars belief is the length of the “development” process required to achieve this end. Lots of hoop is used to get wall thickness up to the min 1.5mm wall on “proper” spars where less near the zero axis gets the compression and bending performance above hounds, but you can crush the spar tying it into the trailer. |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 9:16pm
No. If stiffness and weight are the same, static And dynamic performance is the same. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 9:50pm
|
I'll gladly bow to your greater knowledge Daniel. My exposure to carbon masts started with windsurfing masts. I started serious racing when ally masts were de rigour for racing and fibreglass were for recreational use only, later on Carbon made it's appearance with much stiffer and lighter sticks (my 4.8m 100% carbon race mast weighed around 1.4kg when fibreglass masts weighed 3kg+ and were as stiff as a pool noodle). Much was discussed about carbon content and it's affect on performance, after weight gust response was the main advantage, 100% carbon masts would give and return much faster than lower carbon content masts. It never occurred to me that this might have a lot to do with mass (my materials physics is not up to much TBF). But, forgive me for being cynical, I still don't believe that the Laser Carbon top section is not quicker than the ally version. FWIW My Carbon Blaze mast (based on very limited experience so far) is nicer to use than the M7 Alloy mast especially in a blow, it is 2.5 kg lighter but, supposedly has the same stiffness and curve (will check when I get time). Are you saying the quicker gust response I'm feeling is all down to mass or is the characteristics of the Carbon fibre construction also a factor? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 10:36pm
|
Yes Sam it’s all about mass less mass aloft at same stiffness increases the natural frequency (=(k/m)^0.5) hence the faster return.
With carbon (100%) designed properly ie mostly axial you can achieve a big gain in stiffness or reduction in weight or a combo of both, both of which manifest in higher natural frequency ie higher return. Lighter weight aloft also imparts less force back into the boat or board ie feels lighter in the hands. Bit like a car with light alloys ie lower unsprung weight has tyres. That will be spending more time on contact with the road. Laser topmasts are 2.6 to 3.1kg in alloy world. These new ones will be the same with the same stiffness. They get over the fundamental failing of the Ali mast namely yielding at the collar, straightening of which leads to work hardening and then failure, so there is a reliability gain. I expect that you could replicate the stiffness of the Ali mast in a carbon spar weighing a kilo. But then it could no longer be called a one design class, as there would be a notable performance gain (absolute weight reduction, and high up so less pitching moment, better dynamic response. ) |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 10:41pm
|
Glass is not a bad thing in masts as it’s better for impact and can take higher strains ie can bend further before snapping, even if it’s heavier and bendier than carbon. It’s also a lot cheaper.
Hence why there was maybe still is a big range of carbon content in windsurf masts - for equivalent stiffness ie IMCs you can get a 30% carbon mast the rest being glass I guess, and probably richer in resin, which will be about twice the weight of a 100% carbon stick (which is still actually around 40 to 45% resin btw) You can then go even lighter for same stiffness with high modus carbon fibres. Issue is the stiffness goes up but the strength does not necessarily follow. And I have paid £100 for 10m of 50mm wide HM tape before ie it’s ruinous compared to Normal “cooking” carbon grades. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 10:50pm
Thanks for taking the time to explain Daniel  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |