Junior Competition
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13269
Printed Date: 30 Jun 25 at 12:23am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Junior Competition
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Junior Competition
Date Posted: 27 Feb 19 at 2:49pm
Interesting Editorial piece in today's telegraph. I saw it on paper but its on line behind their paywall here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/02/26/north-harbour-make-first-brave-step-towards-culture-letting/
Basically a significant NZ Rugby club has abandoned its representative programme for U14s and younger. They're supported by the NZ Rugby Union's head of participation and development, who said "we do not see value in representative programmes at U14 and below in relation to both identifying those players likely to go on to the elite level and encouraging the largest pool of players who may have the ability to play at elite level to stay in the game". Its on the back of research that showed falling participation rates were related to children feeling disillusioned when not selected for a representative team.
Now obviously Rugby has a specific problem since it doesn't matter how talented you are it you won't do anything at junior level if you don't grow large young, but the editorial hopes this will be the start of something.
I agree. Its always seemed a problem to me that kids get to 17 and they've done worlds on three continents, they've sailed in the biggest championship fleets they're ever going to, they've done everything you can do in the sport without becoming a full time Olympic hopeful, they've done it all with a huge parental budget and smart new gear all the time, and we wonder why they give up when there's nothing new to look forward to and they've got to finance it themselves...
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Replies:
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 27 Feb 19 at 2:53pm
An opportunity for Dad, a Mirror dinghy and Arthur Ransome bedtime reading ...
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Happily living in the past
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 27 Feb 19 at 4:38pm
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Feb 19 at 7:53pm
Junior sailing should be a mix of racing, adventures, messing about and being with friends. Once it gets out of balance for a particular group ( and all are different) then the fun may stop.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Feb 19 at 8:35pm
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I can only speak from my own experience, I have yet to come across a club that doesn't make sailing fun and educational.
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 27 Feb 19 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by 423zero
I can only speak from my own experience, I have yet to come across a club that doesn't make sailing fun and educational. |
On the whole agree, but the element of fun can quickly evaporate when basic sailing competence is reached and the only obvious pathway “forward” for kids is race training in plastic boats and squads for all. Most kids are competitive in some way but for many it has to be on their own terms which is fine, different kids respond to pressure differently. As Jim c quite rightly points out on another thread, the youth racing pathway system ie squads for all leads to a large number of kids having reached their racing zenith aged 16, having done worlds on multiple continents in several hundred boat fleets in strict one designs, fully supported by parents etc. Nothing else will be the same again, particularly if you start having to pay for it yourself.
I know from my experience coaching more recently that due to the world we now live in, youth sailing / training / racing is far more “sterile” than it was in my day, which is good for risk avoidance but perhaps less so for fun.
Maybe high class one design championship / regatta fleet racing is too available too soon for kids, like getting them straight on the smack before starting them on the soft drugs.
My squad experience still had a lot of fun and I made a lot of mates, but when the whole thing becomes less fun, the results tend to suffer too. I’ve still always liked titting about up rivers and creeks, making and fiddling with boats and their bits which makes me unusual for my generation or younger ie millennials. Seems to me that the sailors who get into sailing in a sustainable manner race fairly lightheartedly at club level as kids and young adults, whilst also titting about with mates in the water or in and around the sailing club, and if they want to, elect to race more seriously at open or national level on their own initiative often in non “pathway” boats, whilst retaining a link to generally smaller home clubs. Clubs themselves differ a lot in the value proposition offered - end of the day sailing is a highly social activity, probably culturally harking back to seafaring days of old and lantern swinging and rum drinking.
The sailing at Cowes week, let’s be honest, is just a tedious and expensive (for the owner) precursor to a lot of drinking and bullsh*t talking in the bars with a load of other down for the weekend types.
So I would venture that the sailing clubs that offer a welcoming social side and something for all age groups tend to get a higher retention rate.
There is something in the ransome and mirrors etc . What kid, or frankly adult doesn’t enjoy some sort of playful, piratical, holiday element to their sailing.
There is a newer swallows and Amazons film that my 5yo is obsessed with even though she is a very fair weather sailor. Has an edgy espionage based plot embellishment.
Most young kids, if you say, let’s go down to the sailing club and do a club race, will generally wrinkle their noses up in disdain. If it’s a nice day and there is a race on, then light hearted participation Can go ok Esp if vs their mates.
Offer a kid a morning of treasure maps and adventures and picnics with mates in boats with names and characters and it’s suddenly a more exciting holistic proposition.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 19 at 10:41pm
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Its a drawback for those of us at the southern artificial reservoirs. Not a lot of exploring potential in a circular dam. Somewhere like Kielder on the other hand...
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 27 Feb 19 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by JimC
Its a drawback for those of us at the southern artificial reservoirs. Not a lot of exploring potential in a circular dam. Somewhere like Kielder on the other hand... |
Good point. I was lucky growing up in “Cornwall’s forgotten corner.”
Still I dare say there is scope for a laugh / decent atmosphere / social scene at any club.
I’d say that quality of atmosphere is inversely proportional to membership fee and club annual turnover.
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 27 Feb 19 at 11:13pm
Completely agree with all the comments here, which is why at Pirates I try to ensure we not only have the ability to feed-in to the RYA lower-level squad system, but also cater for those that may prefer to start developing towards becoming AIs and eventually DIs. I also try to ensure that they all have access to non-pathway classes, so they can see that Sailing is a sport and skill for life, to enjoy regardless of the level, in boats you enjoy sailing.
This year one project we have is to built one usable 420 out of 3 dead ones, so the kids learn skills, invest time and effort, then reap the benefit of fun times in an appropriate boat for the summer, where they can have playtime outside of their squad-chasing Toppers.
As a role model I can stand in front of them, having loved 45 years of sailing, having raced at local, national, European and World Champ events, and in that time I’ve probably won a total of maybe 15 circuit races. Why would I still be doing it if winning was the only important thing? All I can do is hope that they take away the lesson that the real wins are in competition, friendship, self-reliance and knowledge that there is nothing — absolutely nothing — half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 27 Feb 19 at 11:17pm
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Feb 19 at 8:30am
In the summer, we run training week (RYA courses) for the adults, but adventure week for the kids. We use young DIs and AIs to keep them safe, but as well as sailing they build dens in the woods, play games, jump in a lot. We package it as family week and last summer had a good turnout of tents and caravans for the week.
One looming issue is that in our 3rd year we need new ideas to keep both 13 year olds and 8 year olds amused. Thoughts please, as this thread is about making sailing fun!
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 28 Feb 19 at 11:20am
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Good posts from many, esp Dan and Bootscooter. My brother was perhaps an early casualty of burnout - won the qualifications for the Youth Worlds in 420s AND Lasers (didn't go either time but that's another story) and then made top 25 in the Laser standard open worlds a few months after turning 19 - after which he largely walked away from racing because he had to start passing subjects at uni and had no real achievable challenge. He's still mad on sailing but as a cruiser and boatbuilder, apart from the times when he hops into a Tasar and beats everyone.
We had serious problems with kids being dragged out of our junior windsurfing club fleets into squads, which robbed the club fleets of critical mass, and then the kids getting burned out. It did nothing for the sport or the people in it.
On the other hand, Dan, Cowes Week style racing is enormous fun in its own way. Optimising a boat and running a crew are interesting challenges and sailing an offshore style boat can be an adrenalin rush and a technical fascination whether you are the bowperson or trimmer or whatever. If you don't like it fair enough, but why disrespect it?
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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com
The history and design of the racing dinghy.
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 28 Feb 19 at 12:38pm
Ok optimising and running a boat for the likes of cowes week is probably an exciting challenge for the 10% of the crew that has involvement in that part. Owner on smaller boats and pros on bigger boats. Cowes week is inshore. I’ve done it, for money, and I accept that I am a snob and spoiled by some of my dinghy racing experiences, but I think that assigning more racing significance than a precursor to a piss up to the stock car racing a load of generally vastly disparate craft in orienteering courses around a choked up piece of solent is somewhat disingenuous.
That said, all those punters and owners and 90% rail meat can’t be wrong so if they like it and keep coming back then who am I to judge 😀
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Feb 19 at 9:40pm
Maybe it is the social side juniors miss, not the big fleets, and once they stop, adult sailing isn't with their (buzzword) tribe. Seems like many adults find that again doing Cowes each year. Dinghy show similar, I see people from my whole sailing past, right from being a kid in the front of a Firefly.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 28 Feb 19 at 10:43pm
Good club should have that social buzz for all age groups.
Good championships or even opens also, but with attendances down across the board, the advent of 3 day nationals to save precious annual leave for who knows what else, windguru effect and the age group / ability level stratification of classes like the laser, means that people don’t pitch up with a view to spending time having social intercourse so much. We are all far too busy to waste time idly chatting!
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