carbon fibre from plants?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12959
Printed Date: 03 Jul 25 at 11:30pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: carbon fibre from plants?
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Subject: carbon fibre from plants?
Date Posted: 15 Jan 18 at 5:22pm
https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-fiber-plants-2524612227.html?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&socialux=facebook&share_id=3173573&utm_medium=social&utm_content=EcoWatch&utm_source=facebook" rel="nofollow - https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-fiber-plants-2524612227.html?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&socialux=facebook&share_id=3173573&utm_medium=social&utm_content=EcoWatch&utm_source=facebook
Looks like the environmentally conscious among us can breath a little more happily while sailing our exotic craft,... soon?
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Replies:
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 16 Jan 18 at 9:14am
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 16 Jan 18 at 9:20am
Next step would be the resin. Anybody know of an eco epoxy? I know Sicomin resin is meant to be low toxicity, but what about it's petroleum content? I've also seen Bamboo Fibreglass, but still what about the resin?
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 16 Jan 18 at 10:09am
Not that I'm not environmentally conscious (I think it comes with the territory as a sailor) but, TBH, compared to the amount of PET bottles discarded a few carbon fibre skiffs cluttering up landfill is pretty small spuds........
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Jan 18 at 11:11am
The thing that disturbs me most about hi tech boat building is not the product but the waste. Reusable peel ply would be great (no I haven't the slightest clue how that might possibly be managed, I expect its impossible, not to mention film, bleeder cloth, even disposable gloves).
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 16 Jan 18 at 11:53am
All true but I suspect if we all recycled a single extra drink bottle or carrier bag every week we'd make a much bigger impact?
Not saying it's not still a good idea to reduce our impact but at least we don't go and burn 100-200kg of refined petroleum fuel every other weekend on top of all that carbon fibre stuff........
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 16 Jan 18 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow
Next step would be the resin. Anybody know of an eco epoxy? I know Sicomin resin is meant to be low toxicity, but what about it's petroleum content? I've also seen Bamboo Fibreglass, but still what about the resin? |
There are a few bio resins, I am not quite how much of the formulation is plant based, and what other chemicals and energy input is required in the manufacturing.
I have used an infusion resin from https://entropyresins.com/ and it seemed OK, possibly more sensitive to temperature than some other resins but it was useable in a garage.
------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 16 Jan 18 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Granite
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow
Next step would be the resin. Anybody know of an eco epoxy? I know Sicomin resin is meant to be low toxicity, but what about it's petroleum content? I've also seen Bamboo Fibreglass, but still what about the resin? |
There are a few bio resins, I am not quite how much of the formulation is plant based, and what other chemicals and energy input is required in the manufacturing.
I have used an infusion resin from https://entropyresins.com/ and it seemed OK, possibly more sensitive to temperature than some other resins but it was useable in a garage.
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Ooo... that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.
I think anything that can be done to reduce impact is a good idea. And I'm totally with Jim on the waste involved in boat production. I have a massive crisis when I'm chucking away a tone of Peel Ply or Breather Bag or whatever.
One more argument for lightweight dinghies made from wood! ( couldn't help but bring it back the 3.7! ;-) ) But then the wood needs to be responsibly sourced!
In my view there's defiantly a market for someone to provide a single point of purchase for responsibly sourced timber and eco boat building materials.
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Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 16 Jan 18 at 6:11pm
Anyone who has worked in the composites industry will know that the amount of consumables used is huge: peel ply, gloves, vaccum bag, breather, infusion mesh the list goes on and on
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 16 Jan 18 at 6:44pm
These boys don't appear to be throwing a lot away.
https://www.britishpathe.com/video/firefly-racing-dinghy
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Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 16 Jan 18 at 7:04pm
[/QUOTE]
In my view there's defiantly a market for someone to provide a single point of purchase for responsibly sourced timber and eco boat building materials.
[/QUOTE]
It's not a new idea (Dave Rose has been building world beating OKs this way for decades), but a ply/foam/ply sandwich can build a very stiff structure and I guess an opportunity to use thinner skins to get weight down without sacrificing performance or keep them thicker and have a long competitive life. Of course we wont mention the processing and glue needed to make ply in the first place....
------------- OK 2249
D-1 138
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Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 16 Jan 18 at 7:58pm
Just out of interest:
Authors:Majasuo, Susanna1 Liippo, Jussi1 Lammintausta, Kaija1Source:Contact Dermatitis (01051873). Mar2012, Vol. 66 Issue 3, p148-153. 6p.Document Type:ArticleSubject Terms:*SKIN inflammation *PATIENTS *EPOXY resins *BISPHENOL A *TRANSFER factor (Immunology) *OCCUPATIONAL diseasesNAICS/Industry Codes:325210 Resin and synthetic rubber manufacturing 325211 Plastics Material and Resin ManufacturingAbstract:Background. Sensitization to epoxy resins often results from occupational exposure in various fields of construction and industry. Non-occupational sensitization sources and environments have remained overlooked. Objectives. To analyse non-occupational and occupational contact sensitization to epoxy resin of bisphenol A among general dermatology patients. Special attention was paid to patients sensitized from non-occupational sources. Patients and methods. During a 10-year period, 6042 general dermatology patients were patch tested with epoxy resin (bisphenol A) in the Dermatology Clinic of Turku University Hospital. The clinical data and the sources of occupational and non-occupational exposure to epoxy resin were analysed in sensitized patients. Results. Epoxy resin sensitization was found in 59 patients. Non-occupational sensitization was found in 21 (35%) patients, whereas the number of occupational cases was 38 (65%). The most common sources of non-occupational epoxy resin sensitization were materials used in domestic renovation and construction projects and in boat repair. Conclusions. Non-occupational sensitization sources account for approximately one-third of epoxy resin sensitization cases, and therefore represent an important risk among hobbies and leisure activities The red highlight is mine. The problem with modern boat building chemicals for me is that I hate the stink and the mess and the waste! I can't even burn wood that comes off boats from the 60's as they have styrene resin on them.I have an old Mirror that I'd like to burn next bonfire night but won't as the fumes would be really toxic, so much for chemical wood boats. (I'll have to saw it up and take it to the tip where it will end up in chipboard)Maybe I'm just sensitive to all of the resins but they are all vile and I wouldn't want any of my kids working with them.Maybe we are entering the end of the non recyclable plastics age now? Blue Planet and Whales eating plastic.....I had a vision of Cockroach archaeologists after the next global meltdown digging down and finding the 20th Century plastic stratum millions of years in the future
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Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 17 Jan 18 at 6:48am
Armacell is a structural foam from 100% recycled PET (bottles)
It works well and is cost competitive with other cores.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Jan 18 at 2:50pm
One of RS teaser videos for the RS21 launch is eco focused.
First time I've seen that even mentioned as a selling point for a small racing boat, let alone be a key selling point which warrants it's own advertising material.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jan 18 at 3:28pm
One way to reduce the eco footprint of our sport would be to STOP MAKING SO BL00DY MANY NEW BOATS. Most of the Class Associations are keen to point out how competitive older boats can be and how you don't need a new boat to win the Nationals or WHY   
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: chris_wht
Date Posted: 18 Jan 18 at 10:28am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
One way to reduce the eco footprint of our sport would be to STOP MAKING SO BL00DY MANY NEW BOATS. Most of the Class Associations are keen to point out how competitive older boats can be and how you don't need a new boat to win the Nationals or WHY    |
bit like manufacturers making and selling brand new electric ''eco'' cars rather than manufacturing and selling electric motor conversions for existing models...just isnt as fashionable or easily marketable with a fancy instagram filter and a pcp deal.
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 18 Jan 18 at 11:35am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
One way to reduce the eco footprint of our sport would be to STOP MAKING SO BL00DY MANY NEW BOATS. Most of the Class Associations are keen to point out how competitive older boats can be and how you don't need a new boat to win the Nationals or WHY    |
Slightly different thread needed for this but. For a Class to be successful, i.e grow in size and improve the competitive element of the class, they NEED boat churn. Because the majority of owners do actually own a old, older, really old boat. But to grow you need new boats coming in at the top.
You could leverage your argument at the over servicing of the saturated dinghy sailing market. We have to many Classes that do the same thing. But all objects that race - cars, planes, bikes and sail boats wear out and need replacing. Because winning is about small percentages. Finding the most eco way of doing this is surly a very important thing.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Jan 18 at 2:11pm
TBF I was trying, with tongue slightly in cheek, to engender some activity at the cat/pigeon interface..... 
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 18 Jan 18 at 4:06pm
Yes, all things that race wear out and need replacing, however because plastic boats of all materials are unitary you can't easily replace parts of the hull.
If a dinghy hull coulb be made to easily disassemble then it could be kept going for much longer. The manufacturer would supply parts as well as complete hull units. It would be a different business model.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Jan 18 at 5:42pm
I'd have thought most epoxy/foam sandwich hulls will remain competitive for a considerable time (possibly almost indefinitely as long as they remain undamaged), unlike polyester boats which take up water and/or go soft as the resin deteriorates and wooden boats which, unless well cared for and kept put of the weather when not being sailed, just deteriorate with time (and, given good care plywood boats probably have a longer potential life than GRP).
Rigs and sails can be easily updated and replaced
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 18 Jan 18 at 10:05pm
The ability to disassemble may also make disposal easier, easier to get it to the recycling area for instance.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Jan 18 at 10:25pm
Yup, good point, definitely easier for the average punter to dispose of a 'dead' hull. A chainsaw would be equally as effective though and rather quicker 
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Jan 18 at 7:57am
A chain saw runs on fossil fuels, though.
Maybe we should take another look at carvel built boats, where planks are easy to replace. Using mahogany is probably not viable any more, but how about planks made from recycled plastic bottles?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Jan 18 at 8:54am
Brilliant, and given that we are told the plastic takes hundreds of years to break down we should have some super long lasting boats 
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 19 Jan 18 at 9:10am
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow
https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-fiber-plants-2524612227.html?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&socialux=facebook&share_id=3173573&utm_medium=social&utm_content=EcoWatch&utm_source=facebook" rel="nofollow - https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-fiber-plants-2524612227.html?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&socialux=facebook&share_id=3173573&utm_medium=social&utm_content=EcoWatch&utm_source=facebook
Looks like the environmentally conscious among us can breath a little more happily while sailing our exotic craft,... soon? |
These people are extracting sugars from the cellulose within the crop waste. Often called cellulosic sugars. Sugar is a carbon source and can be used to make a wide variety of bio-chemical products. Carbon fibre is new to me but certainly organic resins and other high value products are possible.
Extracting the sugar is an enzyme based process and ain't a bus ride away from how herbivores also convert cellulose in plants to sugars for their very existence.
My company works with a US outfit who make cellulosic sugars but in their case, the cellulose source comes from household garbage by way of its high proportion of food, card and paper waste. One could, in theory make a high-tech boat from rubbish. A rubbish boat, if you like.
------------- Steve
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Jan 18 at 10:09am
Rotomoulded boats virtually indestructabr, way forward, just keep out of the sun.
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 19 Jan 18 at 10:19am
Originally posted by boatshed
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow
https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-fiber-plants-2524612227.html?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&socialux=facebook&share_id=3173573&utm_medium=social&utm_content=EcoWatch&utm_source=facebook" rel="nofollow - https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-fiber-plants-2524612227.html?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&socialux=facebook&share_id=3173573&utm_medium=social&utm_content=EcoWatch&utm_source=facebook
Looks like the environmentally conscious among us can breath a little more happily while sailing our exotic craft,... soon? |
These people are extracting sugars from the cellulose within the crop waste. Often called cellulosic sugars. Sugar is a carbon source and can be used to make a wide variety of bio-chemical products. Carbon fibre is new to me but certainly organic resins and other high value products are possible.
Extracting the sugar is an enzyme based process and ain't a bus ride away from how herbivores also convert cellulose in plants to sugars for their very existence.
My company works with a US outfit who make cellulosic sugars but in their case, the cellulose source comes from household garbage by way of its high proportion of food, card and paper waste. One could, in theory make a high-tech boat from rubbish. A rubbish boat, if you like.
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I love the idea of that.
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Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 19 Jan 18 at 9:39pm
Good idea for producing the carbon fibre element but can such processes produce the resins to embed the CF in?
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Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 19 Jan 18 at 9:46pm
Regards Rupert's idea about carvel or of course clinker/lapstrake boats they are all endlessly repairable and of course modular in that individual parts can easily be replaced (assuming they are riveted in the case of clinker)
In terms of the game that we like to play would the racing be of any less quality if we sailed such craft? You could weigh them and use a Lamboley test to check the weight distribution. Yes you would have to do it every year but not impossible.
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Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 12:56pm
understanding the scale of things is hard and it is difficult to know how important the waste or energy cost of building something is, compared to general use..
So lets say a typical small dinghy is 100kg with a 50% resin glass ratio it is about 50Kg of plastic plus 50kg of Glass plus some aluminium and other stuff.
From some quick googling it looks like it takes about 1 to 1.5 liters of oil to make a kg of plastic A kg of glass takes between 5 and 10 kWh to be produced which would need a bit less than a liter of oil per kg.
So very back of the envelope calculations a dinghy could be produced for about 100 liters of oil, and it would probably get good use for 10 years. A trip to the other end of the country for a sailing event would probably take about the same amount of fuel for just a weeks worth of fun.
------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
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