Oh the righteous
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12942
Printed Date: 03 Jul 25 at 8:41pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Oh the righteous
Posted By: Neal_g
Subject: Oh the righteous
Date Posted: 25 Dec 17 at 10:22pm
So following the high and mighty about the laser class and replica sails vs class legal sails and them not being the same boat and not being allowed to race.
How is this for a teaser
So we now have the standard sail Mark 2 radial cut. So does this make the original Mark 1 sail now not class legal. Because to be fair it's what they are promoting and surely a heavily restricted one design single manufacturer class couldn't possibly have 2 differing sail cuts and be the same. Let alone be made by different companies on different continents. Let alone 2 recognised sail makers on norths and hydes. For different markets. So about time surely the competition commission needs to be involved as clearly these companies have a monopoly situation for these classes.
Discuss away
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(Redoubt Sc)
Miracle 4040
GP14 13407
Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com
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Replies:
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 10:23am
The problem with SMODs (of which the L@ser is the ultimate) is that it's the manufacturer who decides what is class legal or not, not the sailors (or their representatives running the CA). This means that all decisions are made for the benefit of the shareholders to increase profitability rather than to improve the boat......
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:08am
Laser sails last a matter of months, its not a long term problem
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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:13am
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Their are already a number of different sized sails and masts, this is just another developement, new sail and new mast.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:50am
But the different rigs are all considered different classes, mk1 and mk2 sails are the same class...
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 3:48pm
Is it any different from allowing the XD controlled boats and old kicker ones to race together? Classes which banned all the old kit would soon wither and die.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 4:18pm
I don't for a moment think that Laser actually wanted to change the sail. I would imagine that they needed to do something to win their market share back from people who buy the cheap copies ie it needs to last longer and perform better than the standard sail.
Does this go against the class ethos? Yes in suppose it does, but times change and they need to move less behind them.
Does it go against the class ethos more than someone using a cheaper/longer lasting/maybe faster sail from someone else? No, at least not in my view.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Rupert
Is it any different from allowing the XD controlled boats and old kicker ones to race together? Classes which banned all the old kit would soon wither and die. |
No it isn't, and yes they would, as Paramedic says they were probably forced into it to try and reverse the, relative, decline of the class.
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 10:25pm
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also i do think they were struggling to find a cloth maker who would keep making the bog paper cloth with a shrinking market for full rig sails ...
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
The problem with SMODs (of which the L@ser is the ultimate) is that it's the manufacturer who decides what is class legal or not, not the sailors (or their representatives running the CA). |
Not actually true. I spent some years helping fine-tune class rules for a SMOD and changes needed 3-way agreement, manufacture, class-association and the copyright holder of the class rules (which was neither of the first two). Though I am pleased to say the manufacturer was not Laser.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 4:30pm
Fair comment, I guess SMOD classes range from those with an active CA and involved designer (who are closer to an old style 'one design' class like the Firefly) at one end of the spectrum to those entirely controlled by the builder at the other. It is the latter type to whom I was referring above.
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 7:28pm
Is it true the composite top section is 600g lighter than the ally?
If so, how is that fair competition.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 7:58pm
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I read this a lot about Laser sails not lasting, the ones at my club seem to last more than a couple of months, mind only two out of a dozen have XD controls, but they still seem ok after a couple of seasons, is it circuit racing ?
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 9:03pm
I think the general consensus is that they lose there edge after a couple of hard regattas. For the average club sailor the 2% difference between a box fresh sail and one that has had a few weeks use is pretty irrelevant, miss one shift and you've dropped more than that, but for the top guys who are all within a couple of percent of each other a new boat every year and a new sale every regatta makes the difference between winning and losing (in their mind at least).
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 9:07pm
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^^What he said^^
but how many are using genuine sails?
(I must add I don't actually have a massive problem with people using non-class sails in club racing provided the club authorise it and its handicap racing)
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 9:10pm
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Presumably a conspiracy theorist would consider it to be a rumour started by Laser Performance in order to shift lots more sails...
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Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 9:25pm
I understand many of the cheaper capsule coffee machines are sold at a very tight margin, hook the punters in and make mega margin on the capsules.
The Laser model seems similar!
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 9:44pm
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I haven't noticed any copies, only one I know for certain is the rooster sail, but only used once owner didn't like it.
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Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 9:54pm
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as effective and 75% cheaper would convince me
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 28 Dec 17 at 9:25am
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald
I understand many of the cheaper capsule coffee machines are sold at a very tight margin, hook the punters in and make mega margin on the capsules.
The Laser model seems similar! |
Or printers ... where the manufacturers chip the cartridges and suggest your warranty will be invalidated by using non-OEM products.
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Happily living in the past
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Dec 17 at 9:55am
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald
The Laser model seems similar! |
I think you'll struggle to find many things that have a regular diet of consumables and aren't sold on the "cheap initial purchase - expensive consumables" model.
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Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 28 Dec 17 at 5:32pm
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All sounds daft to me....sails on "The class whose name I dare not mention" last for ages.
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Posted By: Emilio Castelli
Date Posted: 28 Dec 17 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by piglet
Is it true the composite top section is 600g lighter than the ally?
If so, how is that fair competition. |
No. E
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www.castellivineyards.com
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Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 28 Dec 17 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by blueboy
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
The problem with SMODs (of which the L@ser is the ultimate) is that it's the manufacturer who decides what is class legal or not, not the sailors (or their representatives running the CA). |
Not actually true. I spent some years helping fine-tune class rules for a SMOD and changes needed 3-way agreement, manufacture, class-association and the copyright holder of the class rules (which was neither of the first two). Though I am pleased to say the manufacturer was not Laser.
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that depends on the structure
newer classes builders who want to 'take ocntrol' are more IP law savvy than the numerous laser companies have been over the years
CA - depends on whether it actually exists or is part of the Builder's PR+ marketing team ...
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Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 28 Dec 17 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by Paramedic
^^What he said^^
but how many are using genuine sails?
(I must add I don't actually have a massive problem with people using non-class sails in club racing provided the club authorise it and its handicap racing) |
quite a few as their 'cost to change' is rather less than the cost of a new sail as club racers will buy 'nearly new ' sails and any that get torn are often just written off by insurers even though repairs are legit and legal in the class rules
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 28 Dec 17 at 10:43pm
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Booooring..what did you get for Christmas?...see other thread...
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