Anyone know anything about National 18s?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12941
Printed Date: 03 Jul 25 at 2:21pm
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Topic: Anyone know anything about National 18s?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Anyone know anything about National 18s?
Date Posted: 22 Dec 17 at 4:34pm
Or if they need measurement certificates to enter prestigious events?  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Dec 17 at 10:19pm
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Or indeed if they go on to win such an event without such a certificate it's not entirely within the said rules of a National Class? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Dec 17 at 10:20pm
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Or is it one rule for 'insiders' and a total other rule for us plebs? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Dec 17 at 10:44pm
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Huh? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Dec 17 at 10:59pm
| Kept checking date, thought it was 'April Fools day' didn't want to be first to post. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Dec 17 at 11:02pm
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RYA/Great Lakes/ SJ cover up shock horror probe. Winning boat had no credentials I understand. Then what do I know, I've never had a measurement certificate in my life, but some folk think it's important even though it is 'only handicap racing so doesn't count'. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Dec 17 at 11:10pm
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Do you actually need a measurement certificate for handicap racing ? I always thought you only needed one for class events.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 7:04am
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There are few events where you need to show a measurement certificate. However the rules require a boat to be in compliance with its class rules, which may include some form of certificate management.
If you enter a handicap event claiming that you're sailing a boat of X class and you know the boat doesn't comply with the class rules that would be a RRS 2 or possibly an RRS69 breach and is cheating. If, on the other hand, you enter an event claiming only that your boat is similar to X class and these are the differences then that's perfectly legitimate. Its up to the organisers whether they give you the same handicap as X class or a different one. If you discover after an event that the boat you claimed to measure doesn't measure, then you must inform the organisers and retire, no matter how long after. http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QA2017.007A001-[23304].pdf Note that the Q&A says you must retire, no getouts about "I asked the organisers and they don't want to be bothered because it wouldn't have made any difference" or "No-one cares about that stuff anyway". There was, of course, a case a few years ago where a prominent boat retired from a major winter event because their boat didn't measure. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 9:19am
| What about, say a bog standard Enterprise you have owned from new, never had it measured, never joined class association ? |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 9:26am
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"RYA/Great Lakes/ SJ cover up shock horror probe. Winning boat had no credentials I understand. Then what do I know, I've never had a measurement certificate in my life, but some folk think it's important even though it is 'only handicap racing so doesn't count'." Exactly, what do you know? Said nothing of substance so far, sounds like no news to me. N18 have several evolutions of weights and specs. They themselves requested the RYA remove the most recent listed PN as they felt it was too favourable. BTW. That N18s are sailed by toffs is no more proof that they benefit from an establishment cover up than chippy windsurfers are the peoples champion.
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Posted By: Alistair426
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 9:31am
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Unless you've had it measured it is just a boat that broadly resembles an Enterprise class dinghy. Being a member of the CA has nothing to do with it. If, however, it's a SMOD and the CA accept that all boats produced by the approved manufacturer are 'within class' (RS, 'Hartley-owned' classes, Topper, etc) you don't need to get it measured. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 12:00pm
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Or is it one rule for 'insiders' and a total other rule for us plebs? Of course that is the way things are GRF .... naive to think otherwise , which you obviously don't. But how else could
‘they’ prevent you from winning everything ?
(Well in ‘your’ model of the world that is .....) But do we look forward to the next 'conspiracy' you reveal ... Russian trolls 'getting' at the various handicap committees has not been done yet. But who is to say they have not .... Happy Christmas .... |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 1:10pm
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To answer the original question, yes a N18 must have a measurement certificate to be eligible to race under the RRS......... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 1:21pm
For it to race as a National 18. You can race anything you like under RRS. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 1:31pm
| I think he has suckered us in, a National 18 won the shortened Datchett flyer, but can't find anything controversial about it. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 3:24pm
Just another example of the Great Lakes being 'beyond the rules the rest of us have to abide by' and hey it's only handicap racing so rules don't really matter do they? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 3:33pm
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One option of having a boat that looks like a class but isn’t is one with the correctors taken out ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 6:05pm
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I have been following this story for a while but from a very different 'angle' - for a while I had thought that I had found something that really stood up as a wider story. In the more basic tense, the question is simple! Did the boat have a valid certificate when it entered the event, indeed, had it even been measured? This is about as basic as it can get - yes or no. The trouble is, these questions tend to be like some of the goings on out in the big wide world, where one question leads on to another, then another and so on. Now in the grimy world of politics a journalist who sniffs along the trail of a story is a star but maybe there isn't the same questing for 'the truth' (or alternative facts if you prefer that term) in the world of sailing. Follow up questions could well ask if this is even important (see below) and could then lead on to the really grimy (a lovely word at Christmas) line of enquiry as to who knew what and when and how high up does this go
. Is this important? Well, just a couple of seasons ago, a winning team in an otherwise street legal boat, with a suit of sails that would be legal in the future but at the time of sailing were not, were the subject of some pretty vocal condemnation, as was a Fireball who sailed with different numbers (despite getting prior agreement to use them) - which could make this important - or not, depending on the answer to the basic question and then your own perspective on the issue. There is more to this than has trickled out so far, much more. I for one await the next instalment with some interest...... or isn't this even a story? D ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 6:18pm
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If the organisers were informed that the boat hadn't yet been measured then there's no problem at all.
If its a boat that measures, but hasn't been formally measured yet I don't think anyone should care. Its a sailing competition, not a certificate management competition. The problem comes if it doesn't measure, and even more so if the entrant knew it didn't measure when entered and didn't tell the organisers. The WS Q&A quoted earlier is very definite about that situation. |
Posted By: pompeysailor
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 6:28pm
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If the boat isn't measured and has no certificate then how can the boat race as a N18? It like someone building a boat which has a trapeze & spinnaker and wins an event because they have called it a Solo. A measurement certificate gives everyone who races against it the confidence to know its the correct class and legally built. I personally don't mind if the boat is now measured and keeps the win if it correctly measure as an N18 (with the same set up as Datchet) if it doesn't measure then I'm afraid I would say they should be disqualified. ------------- Formerly - OK 2145 Phantom 1437, Blaze 819, Fireball 14668, Mirror 54145 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 7:14pm
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I would add to this criteria, How time qualified is the crew ie not beginners. Are we talking about the Datchet flyer winner ?
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 8:37pm
True but if it is shown on the regestration form as a N18 then it must have a valid cert? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 9:00pm
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I assume this is a new boat, built by the builder in good faith that that will measure as a N18, but yet to be in a position where it can be officially measured? And that it hasn't failed the measurement process? And no one knows that the owner has said he or she will refuse to retire if the boat does, for some reason, fail to measure?
Wow, talk about trying to build a drama from nothing. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 9:08pm
| That's the problem with half facts and rumours, turns into a witch hunt. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Dec 17 at 9:17pm
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But the (perfectly valid) point is that until it has been measured there is no way of knowing for sure that it will measure and most CAs that require a measurement cert will argue that until you have a boat measured it is not class legal.......
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 1:24am
it;s not an Enterprise never has been and won;t be until it's had an initial measurment ... can't get a sail number confirmed without being Initially measured . |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 8:23am
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"I assume this is a new boat, built by the builder in good faith that that will measure as a N18, but yet to be in a position where it can be officially measured? And that it hasn't failed the measurement process? And no one knows that the owner has said he or she will refuse to retire if the boat does, for some reason, fail to measure? Wow, talk about trying to build a drama from nothing." I'm with you on this one Rupert, slow news times and desperate for a scandal. Yes I guess the 18s unlike SMODs require a cert and potentially embarrassing if you win before you've been measured. If I was lucky enough to have a new boat and won with it pre being measured I'd undoubtedly offer to retire post event. HOWEVER. There is a quote along the lines of "do not attribute to evil that which is just as easily explained as incompetence" Happy Christmas one n all. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 10:18am
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I would like to apologise to crew of National 18 for posting on this thread and wish you a Merry Christmas. Zippy RN, So when you buy your new Enterprise or any boat that needs measuring from builder with sail number it's been measured ?
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 10:41am
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I suspect most non SMOD classes have their own specific conditions for measurement. All I know is my main class assumes hull and internals to measure as from the Class owned or approved moulds. Pretty free on fittings and foils so little more than weight, a few measurement bands on spars and sails to conform. I think my second boat Contender go to town a lot more with templates for hull and foils, but they have had potential for home builds so more opportunities for non conformity. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 11:18am
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I imagine that the boat was delivered from White Formula just before the event. Given that they are producing all the new 18s out of the same mould and the fact its a fairly new mould I wouldn't be at all concerned. Therefore the only issue would be if the rig fits the measurement rules, and for that if the event organisers are bothered then they should insist on a measurement check.
I expect there were however plenty of other measurement/rule infringements going on such as corrector weights, correct position of racks, correct racks on a 600. At the end of the day they were deserving winners in a lovely boat. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 11:23am
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Could it be that the Daily Mail / Sun / etc have infiltrated the forum? In that case the next twist will be that there are foreigners coming over here taking our trophies and all new certs will be in blue!
Anyway it's Xmas so good will to all classes and all who sail them is what I say ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 11:23am
SMOD = presumed to measure 'out the box' so to speak , as it;s a matter of the builder;s QA processes to keep the contract if the Class association is an independent one approved mould - similar to above but depends on exactly what state the boat can be supplied in - again down to the agreement / contract between the CA and the builder any other situation - full measurement required ( in the past this has been complicated by the likes of the Bell issuing sail number as part of the kit of parts ) |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 11:24am
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A full formal measuring is a PITA to organise and there's nothing IME very unusual in a boat going some months or more before its arranged. In the case of a class with reasonably loose restrictions, and when the boat has come out of a mould which other legal boats have come out of then my experience is no-one's especially worried and I see nothing wrong with that.
If its first of a new design, or otherwise trying to shave the corners of the rules hard then it makes sense to get it measured quickly - it saves you from having to go back and retire from a lot of events if the measurer doesn't like it! TBH if there's been a concerted effort to cheat the rules, which has happened, a routine measurement is unlikely to pick it up. If on the other hand there's something about the boat you know to be illegal, that's a horse of an entirely different colour, but there is nothing wrong even with that so long as you inform the race office truthfully with the entry. This whole business is why the WS/RYA is promoting In House Certification, where effectively items come from the supplier ready measured. Its a good thing. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 11:33am
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For info the N18 moulds and boats produced in them by White Formula are certified by the class association.
There are rig options with a standard package available from White Formula with Hyde sails which would be self certified by Hyde's. But the N18 allows owners a fair bit of freedom on rigs could be an owner supplied rig. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 11:37am
+ Good stuff there JimC, common sense rules. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 11:45am
| iGRF, will say we are circling the wagons. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 1:05pm
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The builder should (and usually does I believe) have the boat measured before delivery, it would be madness not to as if it fails to measure he hasn't supplied what he was contracted to and it is not fit for purpose. I can see situations where an owner might want to hurry the process along but if the CA require a cert then you shouldn't race it until you have one....... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 3:16pm
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Have to say I think starting threads like this on a public internet forum where those alleged against have no recourse to defend themselves is in itself a breach of rule 2/69. If you can't be bothered to protest about whatever has got your back up then you shouldn't post it on here. Merry Xmas all :)
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 4:05pm
Are you saying the boat was unmeasured, or it had no certificate? There is a difference ... I have often sailed with a measured boat that has no certificate; I photocopy the signed measurement form, while the RYA process the certificate. I think that it would be very harsh to disqualify a boat that has been satisfactorily measured but has no certificate. I would suggest that racing an unmeasured boat without an undertaking to produce a valid certificate to the organisers is verging on Rule 69 territory. Probably best to RAF to avoid the brickbats. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 4:57pm
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I neither know nor care, all I see is the usual hypocrisy and bullsh*t that has plagued this sport ever since I first became engrossed forty years ago. There's a simply maxim, if you can't police rules then don't have them in the first place.
Ever since I've been about recently there's been an element of chiselers, banditing rules, taking clapped out designs building them modern and cowboying handicap events, is this another example? I haven't a clue, all I know is somethings been hushed up and I got to hear about it and I'd never heard of a National Eighteen until now. So circle your wagons and have a Happy Christmas it'll make no difference to my world. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 5:21pm
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So, a rumour about a boat you have never heard of at an event you weren't at. Why post, except to stir? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 5:51pm
Er last I looked it's a forum... it's what they are for.. chatting on line about stuff, did you not want to know? I wanted to know more so I asked the question, to which the consensus seems to be rules don't really matter any more, so I can get a Contender and chuck away the corrector weights then, it's OK. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 6:00pm
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iGRF, you haven't actually told us anything, you have inferred a 'National 18' somewhere ? won an event, their were reasons perhaps it shouldn't have won ? vaguely inferred boat wasn't measured and that people were running about trying to cover it up. Name and shame. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 6:11pm
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so I can get a Contender and chuck away the corrector weights then, it's OK.
What the heck ... are we supposed to take that bait now ? So why not ? - unlikely to make diddly squat squared difference imo. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 6:44pm
********S! I'd have to retire from an awful lot of events... |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 6:47pm
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No of course you couldn't chuck the correctors out of a Contender, well actually you could but that in my mind the is the whole point, you would know you had been dishonest. So from my position rules due matter a lot but I care little for bits of paper, I try to live in that charitable place where I have faith in the basic honesty of the people. stop press. Go JimC |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 6:50pm
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I refer you to the man himself ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 7:03pm
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Ok so it's alright for a National 18 to 'allegedly' win without passing what we use to call 'scrutiny' . In the powerboat world (It was very much against the rules to dodge scrutineering and happened for every race for lots of reasons but safety was always paramount.) Sailing doesn't have scrutineering it has measurement and measurement rules and for as long as I can remember dodgy dinghy sailors love nothing more than to bend them.
So, I can't take the correctors out of my Contender. How about sailing with none class specific sails, say in a Laser? That must be OK people do it all the time? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 7:18pm
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I know the Nat 18s have apparently 'suddenly' appeared but there hsve been pockets of them around the country for years. There's been a small but keen fleet up in Findhorn for as long as I can remember tbh (at least 30 years) and yes they do have a reputation of doing rather well at events. As far as I know they guys sailing them are fairly decent sailors but I guess the new Phil Morrison design may well be a weapon in the right hands. A big tall rig that towers over most other boats, tons of righting moment without too much weight and a long waterline must make being able to get clear air easier at handicap events. Are they a bandit - who knows? Are they great too see at events - yep. ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |
Posted By: johnr
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 7:20pm
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If you take the correctors out your boat and enter any event this would result in disqualification if protested and obviously there is different appetites for this at different standards of events. This is a particularly serious type of cheating that could incur high penalties. Sailing a laser with a replica sail again is illegal unless the sailing instructions say otherwise. I would not expect to see replica sails at the sail juice series.
I expect the national 18 handicap to see change over time with the newer boats coming into the class. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 7:31pm
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I refer to my observation on the first page.......... edit add. PN is not really relevant to this string, simply wanted to illustrate the desire of the N18s for fairness. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 7:48pm
I don't believe that's correct. A No-Longer-A-Laser with a replica sail is still allowed to enter a handicap event like any other one off boat unless the SIs say otherwise. Its just a question of entering it as what it is - a not quite Laser with a replica sail - and accepting whatever handicap the RC wishes to give it. But yes, sailing with the correctors out or with sails you know aren't legal or whatever is cheating - unless you inform the RC and accept whatever handicap they wish to give you for your modified boat. But I for one am not bothered if someone enters a boat that hasn't got all the certificates yet, provided they are confident that the boat measures and they retire post event should it turn out not to. As I said before, its a sailing competition, not a certificate competition. It might be as well to mention that the boat hasn't got a cert yet to the RC, who I am sure will not give a f****** f***. |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 8:36pm
Jim, I think I opened my post by suggesting that different classes have different approaches to measurement and certification; I think most of the classes that I have sailed in would take a pretty dim view of sailing an unmeasured boat unless there were extenuating circumstances at National or Open Meeting level ... club racing maybe slightly different and I have come around to thinking that bums on seats may swing the Laser replica sail argument. I have no idea the circumstances of the N18 which frankly is not my concern, what does concern me is that it might be considered acceptable to race non-class boats as “class” boats in high profile events. Many FRP boats now carry many kilos of correctors because they can be built so much lighter than their wooden forebears, their PY’s are set at the class rules weight, but it would be easy to reduce quite a few boats by 10% of the hull weight for “non-class” events to gain an advantage, and nobody would know any better. I am absolutely not suggesting that this is the case in this instance, but it would be ever so easy if a culture developed where it was considered acceptable to have a liasez faire approach to class rules when racing in handicap events. I note the Datchet Flyer SI’s state “Eligibility requirements for boats are that they comply with their current class association rules” so I guess that certification and measurement process is delegated to the class associations. The SI’s don’t really cover the possibility of boats entered as “non-compliant” so there is a bit of a hole there. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 10:59pm
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The National 18 isn't even a one design. It started life in 1938 as the equivalent of the N12, but developed rather differently, with designs from Fox and Proctor being "adopted" over the years. The latest design is a step change in speed, so I'm not surprised the class would like a more fair number. I'm still not sure, thanks to the deliberate obscuration of the OP, what the problem actually is, if there is one. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 11:12pm
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IF and I am still unsure "if" it is the Datchet Flyer, (although it appears to be accepted). Judging by the sail number '420' it is last National 18 built, probably delivered straight from factory, all supposition though, but could explain some of issues raised.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Dec 17 at 11:46pm
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Surely a brand new boat delivered straight from the factory is what grf would like to see more of? All the Class Association measurement nonsense getting in the way of progress. And a new design, too. With a favourable handicap, thanks to history, so the smoke filled room brigade haven't stopped it in its tracks. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Dec 17 at 10:01am
Nail/head........ ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Dec 17 at 11:44am
All grf would like for Christmas is a level playing field, one where new designs get treated the same as old designs that get some secret industry insider 'ticket to ride' . Had that boat been a completely new design instead of another lipstick reworking of some Uffa fox era antiquity it would have been stopped dead in its tracks. Which is why there can never be fair and reasonable administration of the handicap system all the time it remains in its present form. It needs computerising and removed from the old boy network. That would make for a really happy Christmas.. (hope you're all enjoying yours by the way I've got a bloody house full hence me being sad man on xmas day forum). ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Dec 17 at 12:39pm
| Merry Christmas |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 25 Dec 17 at 2:10pm
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Nope, it seems we know very little about N18s. However as it's holiday season with nothing much happening, might as well make up tales to while away the time until reality returns. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Dec 17 at 2:30pm
| Probably had more forum coverage in 2 days than last 2 years, iGRF probably owns molds, all publicity is good publicity, majority of posts positive |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 25 Dec 17 at 2:46pm
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http://www.national18.com
Looks an excellent class website to me, very open and informative and search as I might I couldn't find a trace of lipstick anywhere.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Dec 17 at 2:59pm
| With a decent heavy crew on the wire you could run something similar to SSL. |
Posted By: johnr
Date Posted: 25 Dec 17 at 5:36pm
Ok I will be more specific. Entering a laser as a laser and not using a class legal sail would be cheating. If you want to get your own handicap for your non class legal laser then go right ahead however at any decent standard of event your entry would likely be refused. Buy a class legal sail or sail a different class that allows open sailmakers. Not exactly rocket science. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Dec 17 at 10:04pm
Why should it be? Would you refuse entry to a Rooster 8.watsit? For sure I'll refuse an entry to a not-a-Laser at a Laser event (well, actually I'll offer them one of the tired but class legal sails we keep in the shed), but in a handicap event it is just another handicap boat. If someone wants to race a not-a-Merlin with illegal sails or a not-a-Fivetonner with all the lead out or whatever that's fine, just so long as the RC is notified and is confident they can set a handicap that's as fair as possible to all the competitors. If the NOR restricted the handicap event to only certain specified classes, that would be a different matter, but I got an opinion from the RYA on this a few years ago: if a boat is modified out of class in any way, even a replica sail, it ceases to be a boat of that class and class rules no longer apply. Of course if you do any of those things without notifying the RC and I find out there will be a rule 2 hearing in short order... |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 8:13am
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Just a thought, and completely hypothetical, but what would prevent a determined individual exploiting the following situation... Mr Sad has a plan to win the sailjuice series. So he invents his own class...lets call it the Plunderer class. It's a development class. It has little in the way of restrictions on hull dimensions, rig dimensions and so on. This year he enters a design that is similar lets say to a Mirror dinghy and sailjuice award it a handicap that is similar. Next year he turns up with a new Plunderer that is similar to a Merlin Rocket and sails it off the previous handicap. Sailjuice adjust the handicap the following year, but he turns up with another new Plunderer that is something like a 505...and so on. A little extreme, but you never know!
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Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 9:00am
| racing is competing with a boat of a similar specification to your own. otherwise its just sailing round with other like minded people , who like using calculators. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 9:28am
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Obviously the thousands of people who race on handicap in dinghies, yachts, sports boats, cats, week in, week out disagree with the above opinion. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 9:29am
Time trials have a long history in competitive sport... http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/193807" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/193807
RRS 2. I submit that if you attempt to deceive an RC into giving you an unfair handicap that is definitely not competing "in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play." In this context one should note that the National 18s have been especially diligent in seeking to ensure that RCs are able to give their new faster boats fair handicaps, and deserve a great deal of credit for their sportsmanship in this area. Its an example that should be followed more widely. That's one of the reasons why this attempted trouble making is so reprehensible. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 10:15am
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JimC: time trials whether UCI or CTT are box rule development classes. The only handicapping is personal for age and it's a very small part of the sport. It shares pretty much no similarities to handicap boat racing.
All the sailing time trials in offshore (point to point records) are done from some base rule about the boat and not calculated after finishing. Handicap issues are to do with taking multiple different design rules then applying a calculation based of inappropriate historic data to approximate a race. No other sport does anything this strange. As for the deal of measuring, I think as long as some one is acting in good faith the I'd be happy to race them. This issue is so far down on the reasons why handicap racing won't be fair, that it's not going to improve anything. But if you go after people for minor rule infractions and bits of paperwork you will ruin the only thing handicap racing dies have going for it; it can be fun and encourages people out when there wouldn't otherwise be racing/sailing at all. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 10:43am
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The N18 that won the Datchet (which is what we are discussing here isn't it?) was the White Formula owned demo boat. Given that ownership there is absolutely no excuse for it not to be 'whiter than white' (sorry ;) ) in terms of being class legal. Has anybody got the slightest shred of evidence to suggest that it wasn't? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:08am
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Sam, If that is the boat and the race ? no one actually knows for sure ! I bet crew are spitting feathers at being thrown into this s**t storm, you would be chuffed given the opportunity to race a new boat in a prestigious race, then to find out it's not legit.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:36am
People seem a bit hazy about how Class Rules apply to PY races. Let's have a look at some references. The http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PY%20Introduction.pdf" rel="nofollow - PY Introduction tells us:
The application of PY numbers to classes depends on Handicap Lists (See http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PY%20Notice%20of%20Race%20and%20Sailing%20Instructions%20Advice.pdf" rel="nofollow - PY NOR and SI ). These may be the National PY Number List, or local lists prepared by clubs or regional associations, or a combination. These lists show the handicap number for each of the listed classes. So that potential competitors can know what their PN handicap is going to be, the NOR, in addition to stating eligibility requirements, should specify which handicap list is going to apply. Once the NOR has specified that a particular handicap list will apply to an event, it has effectively specified that the classes to race are all the classes listed in that handicap list, possibly subject to upper or lower PY limits stated in the eligibility conditions of the NOR. These provisions thus specify the 'classes to race' as required to be specified in the NOR by rule J1.1( 4 ). The NOR, having stated the 'classes to race', the Class Rules of those classes become applicable to the respective classes (Definitions: Rule ( d )). The NOR may provide for classes not listed in the specified handicap list by permitting the OA to assign the class a trial number, and in that case the new class would become one of the classes to race. To make this a bit more concrete, the Datchet Flyer NOR state 5. Eligibility & Entry: a. Entry is open to all monohull
centreboard dinghies with a PY number equal or lower than the Topper and to
multihulls and catamarans with a PY between 668 and 1160. The “Great Lakes SWS” PY numbers will be used in scoring for the event. Together these tell us that the classes to race are those listed
with a PY in the Great Lakes SWS PY list. The class rules of each class apply to all boats of that
class competing.
Quite right: neither the NOR nor SI deal with entries from boats that state that they are non-compliant with the class rules of some class. Logically, a boat that declares on her entry form that she does not comply with the class rules of a class, should not have her entry accepted. If, however, the entry is accepted and the boat races, if the RC/TC or a competitor doesn't like the non-conformance, then it is up to them to protest. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:45am
Hard to disagree with that.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:57am
Absolutely, hence my question regarding evidence. If a prestigious builder lends out a demo boat I'd expect it to be squeaky clean regarding rules compliance, they would be daft not to make it so..... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 1:13pm
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 4:19pm
This. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 4:43pm
If the answers is no I really think that something should be done. This is the fourth trial by internet that has been kicked off by an alleged rule breakage at a sailjuice event. What that something is I don't know, but it is completely unacceptable to have allegations made about competitors based on heresay by people who were not even there. We have a protest system within the rules. Use it. This simply isn't on.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 5:13pm
| +1 |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 5:23pm
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No only has there been no evidence offered, but it has taken more than halfway through the thread for anyone to even identify the event at which this is supposed have happened and hint at the background of the boat that is supposed to have committed the crime. Is the real crime here that they won a handicap event and that other people didn't? ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 5:50pm
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We have a protest system within the rules. Use it. This (trial by internet) simply isn't on. Totally agree .... 'put up or shut up' imo .....
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 7:42pm
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Thread may have been started with a nudge and a wink but, majority of posts have been very positive and supportive of National 18 class and said crew. Having re-read entire thread again, I do not feel that thread should either be locked or removed. If I was one of said crew I would feel encouraged by sensible well thought out replies. |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 8:57pm
I don't disagree with the sentiment, but I still feel its wrong that someone thinks that they can try to drag the reputation of a few very easy to identify people through the mud whilst hiding behind a keyboard. Free speech is one thing, running through a set of "hypothetical" happenings is ok too but the original post went too far all but naming those involved knowing full well the potential consequences and the trouble it could cause. I don't think the thread should be locked either, personally I think its a rule 2/69 case - how you bring it I'm not really sure. But something should be done to stop it happening.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:15pm
| Rather than have a "report this post" or similar, I think their are enough eloquent knowledgable posters on here to be able to "self police", rather than condemn individual posters, better to engage in debate. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 7:46am
[FX: falls about laughing] |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Dec 17 at 10:35am
| lol, excepting PY threads |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 29 Dec 17 at 10:12am
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A boat has to comply to rule 78.
Depends what the class rule says and if it does pass measurement. As always a discussion with RC would have sorted it out. Personally I really like the look of the boat. Better to see it sailing rather than waiting for a man with a tape measure. Wish I had the means to get one. Andy ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 29 Dec 17 at 10:22am
Looking at the series I suspect both laser and national 18 will be hit on py on the GL system.
 ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Dec 17 at 10:42am
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Lasers blitzed 'Brass Monkey' No National 18 entered.
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 31 Dec 17 at 12:03pm
Agreed; very shabby throwing insinuations around like this ...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Feb 18 at 9:46pm
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Well here I am trawling the web for Streaker designs since there's one from these people doing really well down the lake and sitting so much higher in the water than all the other Streakers, then.. oh look a National 18 story http://theboatyardatbeer.com/national18prototype.htm" rel="nofollow - so it is one rule for them and one for the rest of us plebs after all #prototypebanditsrule ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Feb 18 at 10:02pm
| 'Bloody Mary' dated 11th January 2014 ? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Feb 18 at 10:16pm
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It was the Datchet flyer and I gather some hasty paperwork is going to and fro as the whole affair gets covered up, so maybe it wasn't these guys, at Beer at all, I really don't have much idea, other than it happened and some folks are pretty peeved off about the way things are these days and you know what I think about how level playing fields really ought to be, but are not unless you happen to be in the right circles.
Bloody Mary 2014 does seem too long ago for it to be this boat then but it does make you wonder.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06 Feb 18 at 10:25pm
| I thought you were all up for boats developing and becoming lighter? |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 06 Feb 18 at 10:26pm
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Do you ever read anything iGRF?
The production boats are built by White Formula in Brightlingsea as mentioned about 4 pages ago in this thread. What is your beef? ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Feb 18 at 10:38pm
What's my beef? My beef is that if a 'new design' boat turned up at one of these or any other junket that PY is involved in then it will inevitably be penalised with an overly harsh rating. Yet if an old clapped out class gets a convenient rework then all eyes are blind and all rules are ignored.. That's my beef. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Feb 18 at 10:48pm
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I suspect a few kg here and there make little difference but 50kg below minimum weight...... on some classes you'd have to fill it with helium......
Graeme does have a point though, a major reworking of an existing design carries the same PN as older models until enough of them are turning up in the returns. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 06 Feb 18 at 10:50pm
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But you're 4yrs out of date.
Currently there is a view that the new shape is about 45pts faster than the old shape and that the RYA PY experimental number of 936 ish from 2016 was based on a mix of the old shape and new. The class number for the old shape is recommended as being about 957 and they appear to have used 910 for this year's winter events which stacks up. I can't see any reason to assume anyone has buggered about with the numbers. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 06 Feb 18 at 11:02pm
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Exactly Craiggo. Talk about "tilting at windmills"
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 06 Feb 18 at 11:08pm
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deja vu .... ffs try and keep up there ....
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