According to the Sydney Flying Squadrons camera cat commentary as of a couple of weeks ago, they 'let slip'? that the 18's were doing some foil testing. Apparently they are looking at semi foiling, and the hard numbers have been done. With work underway on the test set up.

I guess this testing is in response to the SuperFoiler Grand Prix? Which may threaten the sponsorship available to the 18's.

So what cha' think about 18 footers going to foils? Bad idea, or Good idea?

Been done before though:

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2159&title=foiling-18-skiff  

I just don't understand a lot of the foiler hysteria. Cats have been faster than 18s for eons. Fans and sailors just accepted it, just as people accept the fact that you score more points in rugby than in football. It's not going to take long before people put foilers into their own category and won't care if they are faster, just as skiffies didn't worry that cats were faster and Mothies didn't worry when windsurfers were faster.

18 Footers are a lot like the AC, in that their long history of trading off ultimate speed for improved economy and accessibility is ignored by a bunch of superficial writers. While the class has obviously developed dramatically, on many occasions since 1908 they have slowed the boats down to make them more spectacular according to the conventional views, or more economical. Staying away from foiling would be just as much in the class tradition as adopting it - in fact arguably more so.

The way that foiling is seen by many people on SA seems in an odd way to be evidence of their narrow minded attitude. When cats, windsurfers, offshore multis and kites first started going faster than equivalent monos they were largely ignored by many people, just as they ignored seahugging Moths despite their performance and interest. It was only when foils started to be used in dinghies and then the AC that the whole "foiling is the future" rubbish started and has now got to the stage where foiling boats are seen as the upper end and the future. It's almost as if things don't exist unless they are in monos or the AC. 

'Scuse the rant.

Remember the first foiling moths took a while to be comprehensively faster. Cats already had huge leverage and a low drag hull.  I think people always realised that a cat was a good platform for foils, it's just the benefit of flying the boat was smaller. You can see why in a fleet race scenario it would be a huge risk take and not completely obvious it would be faster. 

... hindsight  makes it obvious now, post san-fran; but I seem to recall most people being pretty shocked when reports came out ENTZ was foiling, and people were shocked when the boats took off upwind in the cup. 

Back to 18s. I used to watch quite a bit of 18s, but seeing 7 win by minutes got tedious. The fleet seemed to be a lot of by-gone top sailors who were now also-rans. Unless it was honking and a chance of crashes I wouldn't really watch. I think the depth in talent fell out of the 18 fleet; most going moth sailing instead. But, moths really make a crap platform to watch on screen; great for short clips, but too spread out otherwise.  

The superfoilers should be interesting... half of it is the boat, but also the line up they have already. Why couldn't the 18s get Ashby, Jenson, Outterridge? 

Less boats but better standard. Harder to sail, crashes + spray (i.e. the type of speed and jeopardy that is perceivable through a screen). But not too fast that they split out and you don't get more than a couple in camera-shot at once for the next hour. 

It's not like that now. 

Originally posted by mozzy The superfoilers should be interesting... half of it is the boat, but also the line up they have already. Why couldn't the 18s get Ashby, Jenson, Outterridge?

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Yeah, I've watched a couple of races, though it's early season it seems much closer. However, it feels like it's mostly because 7 stepped aside, rather than new sailors came up to challenge them. 

Maybe it has always somewhat been the case, but the last few years it's felt like the main challengers to 7 were old boys funded / sponsored by their own companies. Really, what they needed was top sailors coming up from youth, or from other parts of the sport battling with 7. 

It seems like they're trying to address that now. 

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow Originally posted by mozzy The superfoilers should be interesting... half of it is the boat, but also the line up they have already. Why couldn't the 18s get Ashby, Jenson, Outterridge?  I guess this is my point. Is this ultimately the death rattle? Have the Sydney 18's become another class that only survives by bringing on the young sailing family members, of sailors in the class, like N12's? With the ultimate reduction in interest.  It will be interesting to see what they come up with. As the tip bit I heard was that they are testing would not be 'fully foiling'. But I can't really see the benefit. That's going to make them marginally faster. But much less 'bouncy' and spectacular. Where as the Superfoiler is, mega fast and crashes pretty bit too! So quite spectacular. Maybe to stand out again. They need to be thinking bigger? Do something akin to the new AC rules boats?

Originally posted by mozzy ...Why couldn't the 18s get Ashby, Jenson, Outterridge?

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The 18s are not a 'pro' series, they are Sunday afternoon club racing with financial assistance - a large chunk of which comes from the businesses of one long-standing enthusiastic participant.  It's based out of a single location, a club which makes fair amount of money from pokies, and has a degree of relatively low-budget internet coverage.  You don't need to be rich nor a superstar to participate.  All this is a good thing as far as I'm concerned - and is in its favour as far as its longevity is concerned.

I don't think going down the foiling route is going to help them - if you want to get from A to B why start from C.

I don't like watching sports where people take stupid risks for my "entertainment" and the profit of entreprenneurs. Occasionally extreme professional sailors get killed or injured. I do not want to watch people doing it for my entertainment. I find it distasteful. Bread and circuses (Juvanal, AD100)  to keep the proles (Orwell 1949) quite!! 

The interesting thing about small foiling cats is the performance differential. The Small Cat Handicap Rating System initially rated foils as adding 7% speed, then on analysis of race results it dropped down to 4%. Interestingly, that's roughly the same as adding a kite to a cat, which is probably a bit easier and cheaper than adding foils. The other thing is that Texel results seem to indicate that current doublehanded foiling cats are actually slower in light winds than their non-foiling sisters.

I can recall a little bit of overblown hype years ago when the new breed of spinnaker cats came out, about spinnakers being the future of cat sailing. That proved a load of old b**locks, of course. Kite cats are fun - I love mine - but for most people they aren't worth the hassle. Why adding 4% to speed with foils should cause a revolution (as some claim) when adding 4% with kites didn't is a mystery, perhaps best explained by the fact that most of those screeching about them in the media don't own or even regularly sail high-performance boats.

Re the 18s; I haven't spoken to the club for eons but I feel that their aim is more to provide sustainable club racing than to get TV spectators, as MikeBZ says. McCartney and his team are on the opposite end, so it makes sense they would get different sailors.

Totally. But if the sponsorship becomes harder to find, because there's another, arguable more exciting sponsored circuit racing on the same venue, it will become a lot harder to achieve what you are describing. I'm guessing that they have twigged the possibility of this, and are looking at ways of raising their game. But it might just make the situation worse! (Low Budget - back in the days of TOOHEYS Ripper Replay, the coverage wasn't so low budget was it (but now the coverage is still better than pretty much anything else bar the AC)).

https://www.facebook.com/SuperFoiler/videos/1502764416428219/" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/SuperFoiler/videos/1502764416428219/

That's in a city that has an ORMA 60, about five 100' supermaxi canters, even more TP52s, regular fleets of about 20 18s, 20 12 Foot Skiffs, 50+ 16 Foot Skiffs, the world's biggest or second-biggest Moth fleet, and dozens of Cherubs, 9ers, B14s etc.

That was a different organisation with different boats, different sailors and a completely different model.  At that time the League (which is what we see now) was still quietly going about its Sunday afternoon racing on the harbour.  The fact that it has survived (flourished even) whilst the high-profile commercial travelling circus collapsed speaks volumes.

When I sailed the JJ in '95 the GP circus was also holding a round of their series on the harbour.  The bad blood between the two organisations was quite extreme at that time.

But did the League flourished because of, or despite of the Grand Prix.