ISAF Anti monopoly regs coming?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12905
Printed Date: 04 Jul 25 at 6:28am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: ISAF Anti monopoly regs coming?
Posted By: JimC
Subject: ISAF Anti monopoly regs coming?
Date Posted: 09 Nov 17 at 4:59pm
Just been reviewing the ISAF submissions for the Annual conference. There are a good number about proposed anti-monopoly and Antitrust regulations. Seems EU law is becoming an issue. Here's an example. Its all very interesting in light of Laser/Sunfish/LPE... anyone know more?
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Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Nov 17 at 5:45pm
| If this is taken up will Laser have to be dropped from Olympics ? |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 09 Nov 17 at 6:11pm
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^ No. It will have to be reviewed. |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 11:10am
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It's certainly taking aim at the laser, and quite rightly too. It's nothing that some changes to the class rules can't fix that would make the class better for everyone involved: 1. Remove the requirement for the laser logo and name to be anywhere on the boat from the class rules. 2. Remove the requirement for the authorised builders to have rights to the laser trademarks The class can then select any builder they want for the equipment, rather than being forced to use the trademark holders. To be honest I don't know why this wasn't done at the same time as removing the bruce kirby trademark from the plaque when the whole kirby/lpe lawsuit kicked off. I would vote for those changes in an instant!
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 1:12pm
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JimC .... ISAF was dropped years ago ... it is World Sailing now ... until the next rebrand of course. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Nov 17 at 4:54pm
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Trade marks aside, isn't the issue with builders not more to do with intellectual property, i.e. the design of the boat? I assume that is vested in the 'rights holder' who has good reason to slap a writ on anybody building a 'Laser' irrespective of what they called it. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 6:51pm
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In the case of the laser, no. They don't own the construction manual which documents the process required to build the boat, all the key measurements etc. They only own the trademark, and that's what stops the class from licensing other builders, because the construction manual and class rules say that "laser" has to be plastered all over the boat. In other classes (nacra?) this might be the case... Part 1 of the laser class rules defines everything you'd ever need to know about how it works: https://www.laserinternational.org/rules-and-regulations/laser-class-rules/
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 9:01pm
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So I could start a company building The Loser Dinghy (exactly the same as a Laser dinghy but with a different name) and nobody could sue me? I could then set up a "Loser Class Association" and declare that I would allow all "Laser" dinghies and all "Kirby Torch" dinghies to join and race events on equal terms with the 'Loser" class? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 9:26pm
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Didn't somebody already do that (set up The Loser Dinghy)only called it a Solo? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 10:26pm
| Have any 'Kirby Torches' actually been built ? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 10:40pm
So, another thought, why can't the guy who owns the 'constructors manual' copyright (Bruce Kirby), withdraw the right to use it from Laser Performance? There's obviously a legal reason why that doesn't prevent LP from building Lasers or I'm damn sure he would have done it. But that leads back to my original statement that anybody could start a CA and declare all Lasers, Torches or identically constructed boats to be class legal for their new class (Rooster 7.1 anybody?)? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 11:09pm
Pretty sure you could, although without the construction manual you'd probably struggle to build them as badly as required... I believe the construction manual is copyright, which is why you have to license it from bruce kirby with the permission of the class (or something). You also might find that world sailing would ask questions before ratifying your class.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 9:11am
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Surely World Sailing only have to ratify international classes (and usually new dinghy classes don't achieve Int status until they are building and sailing boats in several different countries)? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 10:21am
It could be that it's owned by the class - you'd have to dig through all the court case stuff to find out. He certainly revoked the right for his trademark "designed by bruce kirby" to be used by them, which was why there was a rule vote to remove that from the measurement plaque to ensure the continued supply of boats. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 11:08am
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What confuses me is that if Laser Performance can continue to build Lasers with no agreement from BK and BK can build 'Kirby Torch' dinghies (which are exactly the same boat) without an agreement from LP who owns the 'design rights'? If LDCA or LP own the 'design rights' then why can't they prevent BK from building the Torch, if BK does why can't he stop LP from building them? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 11:56am
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I suspect the Torch thing is dead. My guess is it was intended to put some pressure on LP and it didn't happen.
The whole IP situation with boats is rather complicated. I'm not sure to what extent "design rights" are a real thing. My impression is that the real influence was/is in trademarks and contracts. |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 12:04pm
| I thought Bruce Kirby was dead? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 2:21pm
It is certainly the case that the Laser trademarks belong to LP and nobody else can build a "Laser" but what interests me is the IP aspect. A few UK classes have the 'rights holder' mentioned in their class rules and the 'design rights' have been known to change hands (presumably for a consideration). The Spice and Buzz were originally Topper boats (thought built by White Formula) but I assume that the 'rights holder' was Topper who commissioned the designs (not sure where the IP rests...... With the designer or can he pass that to another party?). Bruce Kirby owned the IP to the "Kirby Sailboat" which he licensed to LP in return for a royalty on each one built. I don't understand how they can now build the boat without paying BK his royalty (which I can't imagine is a huge sum relative to the price of a new boat)....... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 3:44pm
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World Sailing should just create it's own set of equipment and then select it for the games. They would then own the whole shooting match and make money from selling the boats. That would also prevent them having to dick about with all sorts of complexed issues over rights etc.
Why they have not done this to date is anyone guess ... hardly difficult. |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 5:35pm
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"Design rights" mean different things in different countries - I believe that with the laser Bruce Kirby was reliant on the class rules and his trademark being on the plaque. There's also copyright on the "construction manual" because it's a book. In the UK you can copyright a design for 25 years if you register it. That's expired for the laser anyway even if Bruce Kirby had registered it, which he hadn't... https://www.gov.uk/register-a-design
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 5:43pm
| http://www.kirbytorch.com/ |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 7:16pm
| But surely copyrighting the construction manual doesn't stop someone making a boat they same way, if they've read the manual. My mum makes a lovely chocolate cake straight from a Delia Smith copyrighted book. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 7:19pm
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Last news update 2013. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 7:22pm
I don't think so! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 7:54pm
| In many respects a Class Association is nothing more than a fan club or a classic car owners club. Indeed the Merlin Rocket calls itself an Owner's Club rather an a Class Association. In that sense it is solely up to the club members to decide who is eligible to be a member – it is quite feasible to start an association that allows genuine Lasers, fake Lasers, Solos, Supernovas and Aeros to join. In fact, given that they have so much in common such an association would be no bad thing in unifying the sport. So you could, in theory, attempt a (hostile) takeover of many class associations under the guise of a unifying umbrella. What I am not clear about is whether members of such an association have a *right* to be able to host/enter competitions held under RRS. Do the RYA or WS have to power to stop an association using the rules? |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 8:05pm
| Perhaps we should strike a blow for fair play and join the association, it says it's free. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 8:30pm
I have to say I'm tempted, and I don't sail a "L@ser/Torch"  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 8:21am
It can go some way to stopping it... The class rules say the boat has to be built according to the construction manual, and if you're licensed the construction manual the terms of that license could include confidentiality (you can't show it to somebody else) and restrict the ability to copy parts or the manual as a whole. That way, the only people who get to see the manual are the ones you've licensed it to. Nobody other than them will have been able to read the manual.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 9:03am
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So have LDCA changed the rules to remove the requirement that Lasers be built according to the construction manual? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 9:44am
No but they have removed the requirement for Bruce Kirbys name to appear on the plaques. Interesting to see JimCs thread on the Sunfish, seems LP are doing the same with that as they did with the Laser. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 15 Nov 17 at 2:45pm
Not "Club". Merlin Rocket Owners Association.
No. Nothing in RRS requires an Organising Authority to accept an entry, except at Worlds and Continental championship level. See RRS 76. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 15 Nov 17 at 3:08pm
| Even then if they don’t recognise the home state of the sailor, organisers can make life difficult for some competitors... Israeli sailors in Malaysia springs to mind. |
Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 15 Nov 17 at 9:29pm
How on earth did we get from ISAF (WS) anti-monopoly policy to rogue nations? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Nov 17 at 10:05pm
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I believe world sailing are behind the coup in Zimbabwe. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 16 Nov 17 at 9:43am
Possible given it should have happened 30 years ago ...
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Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 16 Nov 17 at 1:00pm
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Much more likely to be a well known poster from Kent! ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 16 Nov 17 at 1:25pm
| I wonder if PY will come under martial law |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 16 Nov 17 at 1:32pm
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