Sailing and Large sailors.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12881
Printed Date: 04 Jul 25 at 4:57pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Sailing and Large sailors.
Posted By: 423zero
Subject: Sailing and Large sailors.
Date Posted: 14 Oct 17 at 10:08am
What if anything has your club done regarding the problem of obese members, talking rescue etc ? Not talking diet, this isn't our business.
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Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Oct 17 at 6:50pm
Nothing, beyond what comes in Safetyboat courses.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Oct 17 at 10:37am
Thought this was another Phantom thread.
One thing we don't have any issues with, if they are that big, it's unlikely they'll get out in conditions likely to have them need a rescue boat.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 15 Oct 17 at 2:22pm
Too fat to pull into the rescue boat? ...then just tow them into shallow water. At 20 knots.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 15 Oct 17 at 3:12pm
We tow larger members to shallow water on our pool, I should think it will be a problem at sea ? Dropping them into surf ?
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Oct 17 at 4:46pm
Too be fair it's not just about obesity, some folk are just big. We're all getting older with dodgy knees, backs, shoulders, less than perfect mobility. Perhaps you should rename the thread "sailing and big folk". It might be easier to discuss .....some might see "Obesity" as a pejorative
I'm just shy of 6' and 12 stone. My wife and I work the safety boat together. She is small but perfectly formed. We are going to struggle to get anyone over 13-14 stone into the boat to be honest, particularly if they are injured.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 4:02am
Here are a couple of patent parbuckling devices which may be helpful
http://marine.the-justgroup.com/man-overboard-recovery-sea-scoopa/#more-223" rel="nofollow - http://marine.the-justgroup.com/man-overboard-recovery-sea-scoopa/#more-223
http://marine.the-justgroup.com/shop/man-overboard/sos-recovery-ladder/" rel="nofollow - http://marine.the-justgroup.com/shop/man-overboard/sos-recovery-ladder/
Bear in mind that for fatigued or unfit casualties, even when conscious, major problem can be lack of upper body strength to pull up the topsides of a rescue boat. This can be very greatly assisted by providing a foothold, either use of a fabric ladder as illustrated, or even putting a bowline or just a bight of rope over the side with the end(s) secured in the boat.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 8:37am
On a serious question, if a crew are perpetually too unfit / too big to race their boat in compliance of class rules, are they really of sound physical capacity to comply with Rule 4?
Could Rule 1.2 override class rules in this instance?
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Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 8:39am
If you have electric/ hydraulic lift on the engine, that can be used to help them into the rib. Assuming you have turned the engine of first!
------------- Gordon
Phantom 1430
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Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 8:52am
Most outboard engines have a horizontal fin, just above the propeller.
With the engine off ( not idling!), It can be useful...
The other technique I've used is to get the victim/rescuee to hold on to side of the rescue boat, float one foot up to the gunwhale and rest it on top. Then you can roll the victim into the boat. At all costs, avoid the direct lift approach for anyone over 12 years old.
My club also has a couple of Pioneer boats which can be used for rescue - simply stop the boat, drop the bow ramp and the rescuee can crawl up with a hand if needed.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 10:29am
Originally posted by ColPrice2002
Most outboard engines have a horizontal fin, just above the propeller. |
That's called a cavitation plate and it can and should be used as a step up back into the boat if and when your knackered, I used it many a times in my water ski racing days when I was quite literally so shagged there was no other way of getting back into the boat.
Best turn the engine off though.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 10:29am
Originally posted by turnturtle
On a serious question, if a crew are perpetually too unfit / too big to race their boat in compliance of class rules, are they really of sound physical capacity to comply with Rule 4?
Rule 4 is not a rule that a boat can break.
Given that rule 4 deals with a mental or ethical concept, namely 'responsibility' there can be no question of 'physical capacity to comply'.
The responsibility for a boat’s decision to participate in a race or to continue racing is hers alone.
Could Rule 1.2 override class rules in this instance?
Rule 1.2 refers to the adequacy of life saving equipment and personal flotation devices.
1.2 Life-Saving Equipment and Personal Flotation Devices A boat shall carry adequate life-saving equipment for all persons on board, including one item ready for immediate use, unless her class rules make some other provision. Each competitor is individually responsible for wearing a personal flotation device adequate for the conditions.
I can't visualise a way that a class rule would contradict this rule, but in any case Class Rules may not change a rule of Part 1 (rule 1 to 7), (Rule 86.1( c )).
(c) Class rules may change only racing rules 42, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53 and 54.
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 10:59am
This actually raises an important issue around who is responsible for the safety of the participants at a club (thinking more during club racing).
All rules put responsibility onto the sailor themselves as with the extract above. I have been in situations where I as Race Officer I have had to have discussions with the Safety Boat team to keep a close eye on x or y as they either may struggle in the conditions or more to the point may not appropriately dressed for the conditions (going out in t shirt and shorts on a cold and reasonably breezy day, despite us having a word with him, we ended up having to rescue him and sitting him in the galley with a warm brew and a silver blanket).
Were does the responsibility actually lie? As responsible adults, with experience (as everybody here has) so we have some responsibility to keep an eye out for the safety of our fellow sailors (novices/juniors) during club racing?
Is there anything which gives someone at the club (not just when on on duty, as novices do this too) the ability to say "you're not sailing today because of x or y"
At the moment it seems very reactionary, we will fish you out if you go in, where surely it should be about preventing incidents that don't need to happen?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 11:07am
I've always been of the opinion the responsibility rests with the OOD and when it's my turn I'll black flag the whole thing rather than risk rescue boat crew even.
Dinghy sailors, love em as I do, are not the most competent of power boat handlers when it's tricky, so far better to keep everyone off the water.
And yes even if we are going out, the rescue boat crew can refuse to let you sail if they believe you will be an unnecessary complication to them providing cover to the main fleet. Twice this year I've counselled don't go, to folk who might have a problem.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 11:34am
Thanks Brass... OK, so I'm going to write a hypothetical scenario for you, one which I would assume would utterly breach class rules, but would be there for my safety therefore complying to Rule 1.2:
Musto Skiff - racks fitted with outriggers (skinny moth style hulls for example)
What would be your interpretation from a purely RRS perspective? I think we know what the class measurer would say....
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by turnturtle
...but would be there for my safety therefore complying to Rule 1.2: |
I think not only are you trying to get angels dancing on a pin, but your pin is on a different planet.
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Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 1:07pm
This is never a problem in the class that dare not say it's name.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 1:11pm
I have Epilepsy and always report this to whoever is in charge when I sail at another club, slightly off topic, but shows their are other issues facing safety boat, incidentally I have never been told I cannot race.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by turnturtle
...but would be there for my safety therefore complying to Rule 1.2: |
I think not only are you trying to get angels dancing on a pin, but your pin is on a different planet.
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well for what it's worth, it's hypothetical... and only a natural extension of the thoughts around bladders built into moth trampolines. But I take your point 
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by turnturtle
Thanks Brass... OK, so I'm going to write a hypothetical scenario for you, one which I would assume would utterly breach class rules, but would be there for my safety therefore complying to Rule 1.2:
Musto Skiff - racks fitted with outriggers (skinny moth style hulls for example)
What would be your interpretation from a purely RRS perspective? I think we know what the class measurer would say.... |
Sorry, I don't follow you.
Please quote the Class Rule that you think is in conflict with rule 1.2.
I think the application of rule 1.2 with respect to dinghies is that 'adequate life saving equipment ... ready for immediate use is the pfd worn by each crew.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 2:53pm
But rule 1.2 doesn't limit the scope of the lifesaving equipment to just PFDs? Maybe there's something in the call book?
I assume a dinghy can carry flares and by extension, horse shoe life rings. What about stability devices for safety purposes - prevention is better than cure n' all that...
One final thought, if the moth hulls could be deployed as 'life rafts' would that constitute a safety device? There's nothing which stops us 'streamlining' our PFDs to make them more performance orientated, so a life raft with reduced aero drag seems quite feasible... rules speaking anyway.
As for the MPS class rules .... I will try to find a copy, but I'm fairly sure it's one of those 'if they don't say you can do, you can't do it' scenarios.
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Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 16 Oct 17 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by ColPrice2002
Most outboard engines have a horizontal fin, just above the propeller.
With the engine off ( not idling!), It can be useful...
The other technique I've used is to get the victim/rescuee to hold on to side of the rescue boat, float one foot up to the gunwhale and rest it on top. Then you can roll the victim into the boat. At all costs, avoid the direct lift approach for anyone over 12 years old.
My club also has a couple of Pioneer boats which can be used for rescue - simply stop the boat, drop the bow ramp and the rescuee can crawl up with a hand if needed.
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rolling the boat to assist with the life especially RHIBs with a section of tube deflated is a viable solution as is where you have access to or are making a choice of a new solid hull boat for rescue / support duties picking a Pioneer ( or other such 'landing craft' type hulls )
as has been mentioned rope ladder / foot hold ...
towing someone in the water does depend on distance and whether the sailor is suitably clothed for it as well as the fitness and strength ofthe none driving rescue crew member
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