5o5 worlds - Gate starts
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12867
Printed Date: 05 Jul 25 at 4:22am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 5o5 worlds - Gate starts
Posted By: jeffers
Subject: 5o5 worlds - Gate starts
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 11:14am
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The article on Y&Y states they use a unique gate start...... Unless there is something special about their gate starts they are far from unique, I have done them in Scorps and Fireballs over the years. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Replies:
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 11:15am
'mericans! Don't tell Trump tho, he'd have them build a moving wall rather than a gate boat and pathfinder ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 11:30am
| Journalists! Not all by any means are expert in the subject they write on and then throughout that range of knowledge some love to ad lib with their own opinions............... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 12:08pm
Well, they're the only class that uses a 505 as the pathfinder [gdr] |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 1:03pm
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Do different,
Sounds like a few posters on here. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 7:19pm
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Were Fireflies the first to use them? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 8:18pm
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Whilst I'm usually fairly competent with gate starts, can't understand why, for the majority of a season most people are getting well practiced at line starts then for the big event of the year, we revert to gatestarts that nobody is especially practiced at! I did a Laser nationals eons back where 215-odd boats started well enough off a line start. But what is the best way to determine when to go through a gate..early...mid...late! I always go early if I think I'm quicker than the pathfinder, later if not. Interested to hear other people's approach. |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 9:13pm
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I don't think Fireflies were the first to use gate starts, but certainly they were used in the late 60's for the nationals. They tend to skew the results - everyone was busy counting their finishing place, if it was 10, then one would slow up to be 11th - no-one wanted to be pathfinder! Colin
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 9:25pm
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Pretty sure they were using them earlier than that, but it wouldn't surprise me that the N12 class would have got there first. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 7:44am
| The kids regularly use them to set up tuning runs |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 7:45am
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But then how many adults ever practice anyway!
Launch just before 5 minute gun, finish, de-rig, in the bar. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 9:15am
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When I was racing Raceboards we used gate starts for our Thursday night racing at the club for several years. Saved anybody having to do RO so we could all race. We just sent the pathfinder (third in the previous race but nobody did it consecutively) off on port (starting at the leeward mark) and the rest started astern of him. Numbers were small and windsurfers have always been pretty self sufficient from a safety POV so no need for a safety boat either (worst case scenario it wasn't much more than half a mile or so to walk back 'round the lake). Worked for us....... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 9:20am
Depends what the wind is about to do, if there's a header due anytime soon then go early, if it looks like it's about to lift, then go late. Or the tide, if it's favorable, go early, if it's not, go late. We used to have gates starts in the early 80's 505 style, nothing like a well run Mike Mountifield gate start with the correct application of dan buoys and nanny boats, banging in early into a knock, quick tacking then over taking the gate boat watching a fleet of 200 boards struggling to get by. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 10:25am
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If you want to go left, start early. If you want to go right, start late. (persistent shift, topography, tidal difference across course; all the usual stuff). If it's shifty, start early, as you will gain on the pathfinder (and hence late starters) by tacking back and forth to stay on the lifted tack. The pathfinder have sail port only for 5 minutes through headers as well as lifts. However, you do have to have enough boat speed to get your nose out so you can start taking advantage of the shifts. If you're just stuck in a starboard lane then there's no benefit. If you're fast, and good at starting, go earlier. If you're slow or bad at starting, go late (less time spat out the back). If you see the pathfinder lift, bail out and start later. Similarly if we see the pathfinder get headed, sail down to him to get out of the gate sooner. Sail u wind on port, about 100-150 m ahead of pathfinder. When you get a header, gybe round and start. You should be starting just after the pathfinder gets headed, which puts you in a nice 'bulge' in the line and reduces the chance of a later starter rolling you. Often the gate boat will continue after the pathfinder has been released. It's worth noting early in the regatta how good the gate boat is at holding a steady speed and course after release. Not sure I understand GRFi's "if tide is favourable, start early". If it's favourable, then it's favourable for everyone, and the pathfinder will be being swept upwind just as quickly as the early starters...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 2:28pm
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One day somebody will forget that idiots book about the tide being the same for everyone - it ain't, unless you're deep sea, it never has been never will be and I'm buggered if I'm going to explain it all again here. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 2:34pm
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I can feel some leebow effect discussion coming on ... ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 2:36pm
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All I'll say is I love racing against sailors in tide who believe all that guff they're fed about there being no such advantage. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 2:50pm
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Of course there is are tidal advantages - but they mostly due to there being differences in tidal current on different parts of the course - most notably for shore based clubs nearer or further from the shore. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 2:58pm
Well, that does presuppose the tide is constant across the course, which at most venues seems unlikely. If the tide is better on the left you don't want to start late and thus right. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 3:13pm
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And if it's a cross tide?Say 3 knots in a 7 knot wind?
The pathfinder on port with the tide on it's weather bow and by starting early you get the tide on your lee bow with the associated combination of apparent wind (10 knots)with the fleet stationary being fed by a pathfinder boat (4 knots) ? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 4:12pm
This kind of sounds like you're about to say something stupid, which is going to be ironic given your last post about knowing all there is to know about racing in tide.
Also, my point was, you said "when tide is favourable, go early". You don't say where the tide is favourable, so I assumed you meant more generally wind against tide across the course. What you actually meant, I now suppose, is that "when the tide is favourable on the left, go early". Which I agree completely with. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 4:22pm
Yeah, which is why I started my post:
What iGRF didn't make clear was that by favourable, he meant favourable in a particular place: the left. Because, if the tide is favourable on the right, you'd want to start late. But if the tide is just generally favourable across the course, then it makes no difference. (People say 'favourable tide' when it is just running the direction you are going and will interchange 'wind against tide' with 'a favourable tide on the beat' or 'tide in your favour on upwind').
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Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 4:33pm
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Well Mike Holt and Carl Smit must have had it sorted, well done guys. Especially Mike who posts on here and originates from Essex, and still sounds like it in most interviews.
------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 4:36pm
I see iGRF is a big proponent of the tidal 'lee bow effect' from other threads. Which says all you need to know. |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 5:32pm
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But I think the semantics of this thread equally applies to the lee-bow argument.
For tide uniform across the course, it's probably not an issue, but get it on the Lee bow where it' strongest? *dons tin hat* |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 5:51pm
Oh no ... this is another version of the iGRF lee-bow theory ...
It will only make a difference if the tide is not even over the whole course ... |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 5:52pm
Indeed ...
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Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 8:13pm
| Anyone who believes the tide has a leebow effect must have their head on another planet devoid of logic... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 8:45pm
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There are 2 Lee how effects from what I remember of previous cross purpose discussions. One is simply crossing the tide at the most logical place, the other a mythical beast akin to a flying unicorn. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 9:05pm
| Yep. Rupert's right. What GRF describes as lee bow effect isn't the flying unicorn mythical one. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 10:39pm
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There is the effect tide has on the wind you feel. But crucially you can only take advantage of this if the tide changes (either in strength or direction over time or across the course). If you have a tide running across the wind it'll create what feels like a shift in the true wind away from the direction the tide is running in, if you're on a boat (it's actually a shift in apparent, as even when you're not moving through the water, you're still moving). So, to give an example. If you had a 7 knot wind, with 2 knot cross tide (left to right) at the leeward mark, and 1 knot cross tide at the top mark, it would shift the wind felt by 16 degree at the bottom, but only 8 degree at the top. As you sail the beat you would feel a persistent left shift of 8 degrees. In which case, just like any persistent left shift, it would pay to go left. But, the problem with iGRFs post is he doesn't say how the 3 knot cross tide changes across the course. If the 3 knot tide gets stronger toward the windward mark, it will pay to start late (go right). However, these are pretty extreme examples. Imagine the wind was 12 knots, and the tide 1 reducing to 0.5. That would be feel like a persistent wind shift of less than 3 degrees. Not sure I'd hit a corner for a three degree shift when it's flicking back and forth by 5-10 degrees... But the people who believe you can just pinch a few degrees higher and get a magical extra lift are just mad.
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Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 29 Sep 17 at 10:56pm
| Totally agree with that |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 7:52am
Warning ... do not try and explain vectors to iGRF ... unless you enjoy sticking needles in your eyes ...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 12:19pm
ftfy  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 12:58pm
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As much as I enjoy joshing with you boys, I would dearly love to show you the facts of racing in tide.
So here are a few points to consider. 1) Tide generally is more important when the wind is light. 2) Tide is rarely constant across the entire course in the sort of inshore racing we enjoy, but even if it is constant, it always pays to use it to advantage early in the race, for the same reason that we tell folk not to make mistakes at the start and in the first few minutes of the race. Why? make a mistake at the start for one second and you lose 20 places in a 60 strong fleet, make the same mistake at the windward mark and you might just lose one place, so logic dictates for those first few hundred yards you are pedal to the metal. Now, even though basic tactics are that we're racing for the buoys and shouldn't get involved in inter board/boat tactics, during the first half of the race you are permitted to position yourself as well as you can against the rest of the fleet for the inevitable line up on the lay line and that means going faster through the water than they are, even if the water itself is a uniform conveyor belt toward the mark. And so, in light wind, if there is a couple more knots to be had over the water, which a favourable tide in one direction brings, then take it early. 3) Time and tide wait for no man, not only is tide never constant across an entire course, even offshore, the tide is ebbing or flowing and will increase and decrease in strength if not during the course of a race, certainly in the course of the morning or afternoon, so it could be increasing or decreasing and the early or late decision rests with that. Either way you need to know. 4)Tidal estuaries, tide is certainly not uniform in coastal estuary there will be inevitable channels of deeper faster flowing water, you can see it, learn to read the water, I accept you can't feel it in boats as well as we can on boards, but that doesn't mean it's not there to be used just as you use shifts and I'm sorry, but just inching high enough to get an unfavourable tide onto the bow as against the weather side, can make a difference, it happens here at home every week, where we have a bend in the tide and sometimes the weather mark lay line is inconveniently sited. 5) There are also times when pinching in tide is a disaster and sailing free is faster, typically on a starboard lay line approach, better come up under faster and approach on port knowing they'll all be stuffing to try and make the buoy. Also the opposite can be true if it's favourable, many a time I've taken ten places tacking early and letting the lee bow take me up whilst 'they' get forced to sail back down to the weather mark because of tidal overstand. But it's not rocket science you just have to apply a little logic to your situation, once you know what's going on, which for the life of me I never understand why so few bother to find out. I may be a bit flippant with throw away lines like the go early late thing back there for gate starts, but you have to accept, I've been sailing in tide for over forty years, from Whitby to Whitstable, from Hayling to Hartlepool, Exmouth to Eastbourne, Paignton to Pevensey, Dale to Deal and generally winning more often than not. Give me a tidal situation and generally I'll give you a sailing solution, wind permitted, so go ahead troll me all you like, I just hope one day we meet on the water in a bit of tide with not a lot of wind... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 1:12pm
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The back story behind this is that in the dim past there used to be a dumb theory about sailing in adverse tide called the lee bow effect, which still persists in some quarters, but GRF has never come across. It was nonsense, but no-one has ever succeeded in explaining to GRF what it was. Well, its kinda difficult to 'explain' something when you know what you are explaining is nonsense. There are also several other things that get called "lee bow effect", so the whole subject gets very confusing: you get arguments that could be summarised as
Fred: "2+2=4" Bill: No, you're wrong, 3+3=6" GRF is basically sound on sailing in tide, and what he calls lee bow effects are valid. They just aren't the dumb theory you'll find by that name in some old books and from some old sailors. The lesson to take from this is to be very wary of what you find in old books. Much of it will be perfectly valid, but some of it will be dubious, especially the more esoteric stuff. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 1:20pm
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In number 5, it is the tide taking you up, and you are able to pinch to get there because going more slowly but sailing a shorter distance is magnified by tidal effect, and the overstanding boats are possibly even fighting the tide now. The tide is simply moving the whole boat.
I'm trying to see a situation where the tide is against you on that final approach, rather than taking you sideways, and by pinching, you present the lee bow to the tide. You are then moving through the water, and the tide then presses on the bow to force it to windward. Nope, all I see is a boat pinching into the tide and slowing down, stopping and then even drifting backwards on the tide, whilst the boats who stood on before tacking onto starboard have enough speed to beat the tide. Maybe if you draw it? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 1:53pm
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I'm not sure of the question in point 1, and point 2, would be better served with a diagram, classic cross tide tends to be the scenario I'm describing, but tide can be 360 degrees, it can be coming from 0, 90, 180, 270 or 360 and obviously the effects will all be different.
Something I used to tell inland windsurfers that helped them in their reasoning, the wind we traditionally sail on is 2d apparent, the true wind and the created wind, tide is just a third element in the creation of the apparent wind sometimes it strengthens the true wind, some times it assists the created wind, or has the opposite effect and the key to using it is working out which it is. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 6:25pm
| To be fair everything iGRF said is true apart from the non sense apart pinching to get the tide on a favorable side of the bow... |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 7:05pm
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I wouldn't call anything I explained in my previous post "lee bow effect" because of the other meanings which JimC alludes too (tacking on the lee bow to give dirty air and pinching up so the tide is on your lee bow rather than bow). What the tide does is change your apparent. If the tide is against the wind it increases your apparent, if its with the wind is decreases it. If it's cross the wind it changes the apparent wind direction. But critically, from a strategy point of view you can't make use of this knowledge unless things are changing. You can't make use of shifts if the wind isn't shifting and so you can't make use of the tide unless it changes too (over time or over the course). Which is just what I was pulling iGRF up on.You never stated how things were changing, so I didn't understand why he was saying 'go that way'. Strategy is simple, the question is always; is this tack better now, or later. If the answer is later, then tack. The difficult bit is knowing what will happen later, and iGRF didn't state that in any of his scenarios, so they made no sense. (i used to have a coach who said "always sail the tack which is reducing the distance to the windward quickest; the long tack rule. This is okay, but often not perfect, as there are often situations where you are on the favoured tack, but if it the tack is only going to get better still, then you should sail the unfavoured tack first. e.g. persistent shift). Interesting facts about tide: 1) When the tide is with you up a beat, you get a double benefit; not only will you get the VMG increase equal to the current, but you will also see an increase in wind speed which will give a boat speed increase (unless you're over powered), so the gain of sailing in more tide is amplified. 2) If you're in a boat that has a VMG faster than the wind downwind, and it is wind against tide, you're better sailing against the stronger tide, as the increase in apparent wind strength will outweigh the current you're fighting against. And vice versa if the current is with you downwind.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 8:45pm
OK, let's just requalify this, forget the boat, think about your foil, if you can get the flow from the windward side to even head on, then it's worth the effort, if you can get it from nose on, to the lee side then you will see benefits, providing... Your forward motion isn't seriously compromised or your main driving foils (the sail)end up too head to wind to be effective. Now, some of these awful things you sail, have such sh*t foils of course it doesn't work, but just as gybing plates have an effect, so does skewing the tide off your weather side to head on, if it is at all possible, then you'll have an advantage over those that don't bother, the same as you will against those that don't 'hunt' lifts when they come along and just sail a bit faster. I admit, all this is easier on a board than in a boat, but it can be done, I do it all the time, that girl Europe sailor showed me the skewing body technique we use on boards applied to a boat down the lake, and since I've dialled it I can get a similar stuffing the boat without stuffing the sail effect, I've seen lots of other good sailors doing it so it can't just be me. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 8:56pm
| That just isn't true as the tide has no effect on your speed though the water only over the ground therefor imagine your boat is traveling at 3 knots through the water you will have exactly exactly the same amount of flow over your foils regardless of where the tide is on your bow. The problem with all these lee bow theories is they treat the boat as if it is tethered to the bed whereas in reality there is only one way the tide can take you and that is with the direction of current. There are only 3 gains to be made in tide: fixed objects(marks), change in tide across a course and the effect tide has on your apparent wind. The best analogy would be to imagine we are racing on a treadmill (not a prefect comparison as as you said tide is rarely the same across a course). The treadmill can only move you in one direction and it moves everybody at the same rate regardless of there heading. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 10:17pm
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You believe what you want to and I'll trust my experience. Dinghy sailors told me all the codswallop thirty five years ago, they are as wrong now as they were then. The tether you seek but fail to grasp is your rig. You are sailing between two fluids, suspended between them and the directions in which they are moving and the power you use to pursue your course over the ground is the sum of their efforts, you just need to dial into it and stop thinking two dimensionally. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 10:30pm
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I can't remember who ? but an obscure science fiction writer once stated that heavier than air flight was only possible due to an as yet unidentified anti-gravity static charge generated by friction, inversely proportional to air density and specific area of surface, perhaps this is what lee bowing taps into.
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 9:51am
The above is exactly what he is referring to below ... sadly he still believes ...
Still deluded ....
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 9:55am
Give up now ... he will never get it ...
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 9:59am
Really? When he also says this:
I'd say the above is a dumb theory. Foils experience flow in the direction the boat is moving through the water, at the speed the boat is moving through the water. No matter what you do, no matter what tide, no matter what wind. Pinching will first stall your sails and then when you slow your foils will stall, and you will side slip. The foils will then experience a flow from the lee, because that will be the direction you are slipping too. No one wants to the slipping to leeward when going up wind. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 10:35am
It's like trying to help a bunch of special needs... There are many ways of achieving nose on rather than weather side, it can often include simply where on the course you tack in your windward struggles, just as there are quite a few degrees between stalling and sailing too free. Get the current nose on you'll go better than experiencing a tidal header with the tidal flow direction the wrong side of your centreboard, Now there are obviously more of these 'degrees' available to me as a lightweight (we can point higher than heavy folk), but delusion? Strictly coming from you 'special' people. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 10:43am
Try to think of it like that, tell your therapist you have advanced dinghy tidal retard syndrome.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 11:49am
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Why misquote me? Or are you 'correcting' what I wrote? Unless you're stuck in the mud, speed over ground can have nothing to do with foils, they travel water. No need to call people 'special needs' and 'retards' either. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 12:53pm
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Sorry, forgot the ftfy and of course not entirely true, I'm just trying to unscrabble your collective reasoning, you seem to have me tied to the ludicrous suggestion that just pinching so high you stall and then sitting there will work which clearly it doesn't.
There's a mile of difference between that and tidal assistance, which, on sailboards here locally can make the difference between planing on one tack, then not planing on the other at the extreme, to travelling at faster displacement speed toward the mark if the tide is on the nose at the other. On a board, you can quite literally feel the effect, you can feel it varying up the beat as you cross the tide or as it does here locally moves in a curve over the course. So with the benefit of knowing for a fact it works then transfering that knowledge into a dinghy in which the 'feel' is duller but nonetheless the action still works. Then you come on forums and you're still being fed the same old same old, I've told the tale before I'll tell it again, last time I argued the point with the RYA national coach nonetheless, some months later I went on to take a 10 minute lead over his entire Olympic Squad because he fed them the same drivel he'd been fed by the RYA squad system in his youth and sent his squad up the coast. As I said before believe what you want to believe, I'm available for tidal lectures... ;-) ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 1:21pm
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. One instance (for which we only have your account) is not proof of you theory on lee-bow effect. Why don't you explain how it works? Specifically, how does pointing slightly higher change the flow on the foils, even in the range where you're not stalling? |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 3:38pm
You were warned ... “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/22782.George_Carlin" rel="nofollow - George Carlin |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 3:49pm
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Somewhere, I have a tide compass illustration, maybe one day I'll dig it out, but why?
Why after literally hundreds of successful uses of my reactive tidal genius, should I bother to waste time instructing the uninstructable? Is it going to make me feel better? No Will you feel better knowing as usual you're all wrong? Unlikely Just accept that Tide is 'The Force', I'm a Jedi Knight and you are all the dark side. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 3:57pm
For this story to have any worth it would be nice if you could tell us who the coach was, who the sailors were, what class you all were sailing!
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 4:06pm
LOL ... I have to admire your persistence on the lee bow effect ... Looks like you have hooked another into your snare ... Remind us again how your jedi skills fared at the RS100 nationals ... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 4:07pm
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Coach Ben Oakley,
Class Mistral One Design Venue Dale National Championships, long distance race across the bay. Can't remember when, last time I entered a Nationals was 1999, might have been the year before 98. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 4:47pm
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[QUOTE=iGRF] Can't rememb |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 4:48pm
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OK, I think we should take this elsewhere, it's time for your tide quiz.
I shall start a new thread and you can all enlighten me. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: seasailor
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 12:34pm
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I remember an Ent Worlds in India with a gate start. They decided that the boat that came 10th in the Practice race should be pathfinder for Race 1, but hardly anyone had bothered to finish the Practice race, so without being rude about him the pathfinder was someone that almost everyone in the fleet considered themselves to be faster than. Everyone tried to start early. He was first to the windward mark by a country mile.
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 5:53pm
Wrong type of tide, or is it current or maybe even thermohaline circulation ... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 8:59pm
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Seriously, two or three weeks into single handed hiker sailing, in that busted ass piece of junk?
It would be a different story now. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 10:25pm
What position do you think you'd achieve in the 2018 Nationals?
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 04 Oct 17 at 7:34am
| Now there's a great idea. Find GRF a boat - RS 100 Nats at the RS Games....we can all watch! |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 04 Oct 17 at 10:59am
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No wonder the earlier Blaze you ran was a 'mystery' to you ... All that wing stuff stuck on the sides was not there for decoration .. it was a HIKING feature !! (.... Guess we should have pointed that out at the time .... ) |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 11:50am
Tell me what the weather is going to be like and is there tide running, but here's something to consider, one of our top club guys won the RS Games or whatever they're called a year back in an RS100, he also is very capable of doing well in Laser Masters and back then I'd never have gotten even close to him, still can't if it's windy. However the last race of this season, in tide, with shifts, coming back from a crap start, took not only him but the two other best guys in our club, over the water in my busted up EPS with half it's centreboard missing. So, not saying I'd win or anything, but I'd do a lot better these days since I've learned loads more about single handed boat handling that I had no idea about back then, not that I'd bother to travel to such an event, but if the weather and conditions played ball, think I might surprise even you, how much have you learned these past 7 years? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 1:04pm
Well who would this be and which event? I've never missed a 100 Nationals (or much else), know pretty much everyone near the front of the fleet and cannot think who you mean or anyone who admits to coming from your neck of the woods. Where would you finish in 2018 Nats? About the same as at Parkstone. You'd need to be taller, heavier and willing to hike for a start. ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |