National Class Scheme for Grown Ups
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12865
Printed Date: 05 Jul 25 at 4:24am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: National Class Scheme for Grown Ups
Posted By: davidyacht
Subject: National Class Scheme for Grown Ups
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 1:19pm
In another thread there is a suggestion that the National Class structure should be reviewed. Back in the day "International" and "National" status to classes did mean something, but the National status appears to have withered by the vine for many years.
I looked at this with RYA Technical over 10 years ago, and a possible scheme got kicked out by council.
The idea was to set similar criteria to achieve National status, as classes do to acheive International status, by selecting classes that offered class racing in clubs across the country, open meetings and well attended championships, together with solid class rules.
This would encourage those interested in fleet racing to engage with these classes rather than the classes that dilute the pool.
These classes could benefit from support from the RYA in a similar style to that provided to youth classes, in terms of promotion and training.
It is a while back, but at that time some of the classes that passed the criteria were RS200, RS400, Merlin, Solo, Laser ... I cant remember what else.
Do these ideas still have merit? What classes could now be considered for National status? What should be the criteria? What benefits would there be for National classes? What could or should the RYA do for National classes? Do we care?
------------- Happily living in the past
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Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 1:34pm
Yay, lets spend lots of RYA money promoting something that quite obviously only a tiny minority want...
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Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 1:57pm
Davidyacht. I am sure that you have a copy of Real Magic (the story of the Merlin Rocket) - if you get to the bit where Barry Dunning makes a Merlin with a dagger board, you'll find a lot of interesting insight into the National Class - or otherwise- debate. In short, the Nat 12s had broken that National Class link, whilst the MR class kept theirs (although it was often an AGM item) but when problems really arose....such as the issue of dagger v centreboard, the RYA technical Committee were very useful. This is though getting ever further off topic.......
D
------------- Dougal H
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
These classes could benefit from support from the RYA in a similar style to that provided to youth classes, in terms of promotion and training.
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... thereby driving all the fun out of those classes too, chewing-up and spitting-out sailors who do not measure up to some goal only the RYA cares about.
Sounds like a way to encourage take up of the classes not on the list.
I'd say the classes that are thriving are the ones left more to their own devices. How is the 470 doing compared to the Fireball in the UK? Oh yes, they had 17 boats at their first nationals for 12 years.
No thanks David
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog
Davidyacht. I am sure that you have a copy of Real Magic (the story of the Merlin Rocket) - if you get to the bit where Barry Dunning makes a Merlin with a dagger board, you'll find a lot of interesting insight into the National Class - or otherwise- debate. In short, the Nat 12s had broken that National Class link, whilst the MR class kept theirs (although it was often an AGM item) but when problems really arose....such as the issue of dagger v centreboard, the RYA technical Committee were very useful. This is though getting ever further off topic.......
D
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That would be on Substitute ... also had a Welsh Harp kicker. Seem to remember the present Mayor of Lymington sailing with Bungy Taylor on an extremely windy Merlin Week first morning, when they took out their transom on the mud at Widegates ... Bungy commented that it had "moved since lsat year", I guess that a daggerboard might have saved the transom. Ironically the RYA technical committee was then the "centreboard" committee! We had a 12 built by Spud with a rotating daggerboard which was deemed out of class by said committee, chaired by my old club mate Ken Ellis. Thought that you would like that story Dougal.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by JimC
Yay, lets spend lots of RYA money promoting something that quite obviously only a tiny minority want... |
So Jim, have you in mind any places where RYA money could be usefully applied to develop dinghy sailing for adults ... serious question since the majority of recent threads are of the glass half empty variety ...
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by fab100
Originally posted by davidyacht
These classes could benefit from support from the RYA in a similar style to that provided to youth classes, in terms of promotion and training.
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... thereby driving all the fun out of those classes too, chewing-up and spitting-out sailors who do not measure up to some goal only the RYA cares about.
Sounds like a way to encourage take up of the classes not on the list.
I'd say the classes that are thriving are the ones left more to their own devices. How is the 470 doing compared to the Fireball in the UK? Oh yes, they had 17 boats at their first nationals for 12 years.
No thanks David
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Something to discuss in the bar in three week's time ... Salcombe is preparing for the Larks, street cleaners at the ready in case of re-enactment of the Lymington Easter trays 197? Car park moment
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
So Jim, have you in mind any places where RYA money could be usefully applied to develop dinghy sailing for adults |
I'm not particularly unhappy with the way the RYA operate right now. There when needed, out of our hair when not. Most clubs could get more from the RYA than they do now *if* they wanted to.
The problem with recent threads is more with two or three vocal participants than anything else, and problems with the general operating background are more to do with society changing than anything the RYA has control of.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 2:46pm
Were i forced into a National Class (and the most likely class would be a Laser) i would simply walk away from sailing.
The Laser in my mind is a good boat in terms of accessibility but is not a design that is a long way out of date. if it did not have the critical mass that it does have then it would likely be consigned to the dying classes group (IMO). Don;t get me wrong I raced Lasers for 15 or so years but my body started to complain too much. I simply hurt too much for days after sailing.
One of the good withing we have in the UK is diversity of classes, there is literally something for everyone. Some might say the diversity is also a bad thing....
The RYA are there to govern the sport and support training and development. They do this through their network of RDO and coaches which are supported by SIs and DIs who deliver the courses. In terms of getting more adults in this is partially down to the clubs and training centres who are usually the first point of contact for prospective sailors.
------------- Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 3:27pm
I see this a lot with Apex organisation such as the RYA, they are constantly looking for ways to do more.....which is code for how do I stay alive and justify my job or expand my kingdom because their is cash available if I can think of ways to spend it. Why not start from the bottom up and ask what the sport needs rather than what role the RYA can play? Personally I think that what they do today is great and they should just stick at that and let people get on with their lives.
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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 3:29pm
In my life my interactions with the RYA have been that they trained me and certified me fit to be an instructor and they selected me to be part of various youth / development squads in 420's and Lasers when I was a young man. They also decided who went to the worlds (I think) in various classes. They served a valuable purpose at those points but for the majority of my 44 years on the planet they have played no relevant role and that is just cool with me!
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by JimC
Yay, lets spend lots of RYA money promoting something that quite obviously only a tiny minority want... |
I didn't read David's post as being punitive towards other classes though (e.g. approved lists at clubs etc); but maybe partially funding regional training and/or race preparation weekends (racing, but less formal maybe for training purposes) for adult classes that are popular might be a good idea?
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by davidyacht
So Jim, have you in mind any places where RYA money could be usefully applied to develop dinghy sailing for adults |
I'm not particularly unhappy with the way the RYA operate right now. There when needed, out of our hair when not. Most clubs could get more from the RYA than they do now *if* they wanted to.
The problem with recent threads is more with two or three vocal participants than anything else, and problems with the general operating background are more to do with society changing than anything the RYA has control of. |
+1, but it doesn't mean continued improvement isn't something to aim toward....
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 3:46pm
It's been obvious what 'class' is needed ever since I've been about, some ten plus years now, it's a National Handicap Racing Association (I hate the word 'class') with it's sole remit to improve the lot for those of us who know nothing else.
That remit could be to make the practise more 'relevant', better controlled, more transparent, less abused and be the perfect entry level into the world of racing for newcomers.
But it needs nothing whatsoever to do with the RYA, break all ties would be my suggestion, but the pragmatist voice that has bent my ear all these years would be to retain some loose affiliation however that could be effected.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 4:05pm
One could regard my post as an extension of Jim's Survey;
I seem to remember Jim quoting the total number of classes in a previous post, but if I were coming into the sport I think that I would find the offer to be extremely confusing.
I cant even think of an analogy of a sport which is played to the same set of rules, but with different size and laid out pitches, ball sizes, club dimensions.
I am also aware that whilst there are some great boats out there, there is also a lot of dross, poorly built, poorly designed, poorly conceived boats, some of which pedaled by OEM builder's often as "me too" products. Or are built in materials that can only ruin the ownership experience.
These can only confuse the more impressionable punter.
My suggestion would cost the RYA no more than the cost of a leaflet, but would offer those progressing through the sport a structure toward meaningful racing, that would be transportable to wherever our lives may take us.
My formative years were at a club that had a sign on the gate saying "Aldenham Sailing Club - Classes Sailed - National Cadet, National Firefly, National 12, Merlin Rocket, International OK" for many years people joined in one class while there were waiting lists particularly to join the Merlin Rocket fleet."
From the replies I suspect I am talking a load of b*****ks, but it would be great to see some positivity out there.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 4:18pm
It has been said most of the time the military earnestly prepare for the last war .... and change their thinking within days of the next one starting.
In dinghy sailing terms - the 60's and 70's are possibly not the best 'model' for the current century..... Trying to repeat the 'golden' past (that did not last that very long anyway) is pointless - times they really have achanged!
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
it would be great to see some positivity out there. |
Well, if you didn't have a negative, sniping signature putting down other folks sailing...
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by davidyacht
it would be great to see some positivity out there. |
Well, if you didn't have a negative, sniping signature putting down other folks sailing... |
For you Jim
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 5:05pm
Davidyacht....am not going to go hohoho but I would say that you're right to make the comments about the 'National' debate that you do. This is just another facet of a much wider, yet fundamental rethink that the sport needs to be indulging in. Nor is this situation unique to sailing, for as Mike@Cirrus rightly says, the world isn't just changing but it HAS changed. If you were lucky enough to be racing in the 1960s and 1970s, then what was great for us back then may simply not be what is needed now. Yet in sailing, as in so many other sports, it is still those of that generation who are calling the shots. Little wonder then that there are so many vested interests all allied into the maintenance of the status quo, which sadly suggests that nothing will happen and the decline not just continue, but accelerate. But I'm going to thank you and all those making worthwhile comments on here - I'm taking it all in and you'll be reading about it soon in a couple of massive missives that are heading your way......including (just possibly) an in depth look at PYs that will come out at Xmas, aimed at giving iGRF something to digest whilst he's chomping away on his sprouts and turkey (and by turkey I don't mean Solution....) And as for your tagline, I can't help but think of Jack Nicholson in a Few Good Men - "the truth...you can't handle the truth" D
------------- Dougal H
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
I cant even think of an analogy of a sport which is played to the same set of rules, but with different size and laid out pitches, ball sizes, club dimensions. |
There are several variations of 'stick and ball' sports (cricket, baseball, golf, hockey etc), racket sports, track and field and football derived games. We think of 'sailing' as a single sport but many sports have different disciplines using different equipment, a better analogy might be Motorsport
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
...ball' sports (cricket, baseball, golf, hockey etc), racket sports, track and field and football derived games. We think of 'sailing' as a single sport but many sports have different disciplines using different equipment, a better analogy might be Motorsport
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Well put.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 8:01pm
I can see a role for revised National classes, where the National body work with the sailors of the most popular UK classes to build interest and grow these fleets at club, open and National level. These fleets have a National champion, others have an Association champion.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 8:12pm
I'm with Davidyacht on this. I think it would be good for people to easily see what are the "Premier" classes in the UK and, for want of a better way of putting it, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th division classes. It could work both ways...some may aspire to the premier classes, others might use such classifications to avoid those classes. There's a driver in there for classes to work towards becoming a "Premier" class. I would go further and say only those in certain categories could term their annual big event "a national championship", others could hold a championship regatta or something. I'm for structure! All the way.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 8:36pm
This is turning very elitist.
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by 423zero
This is turning very elitist. |
That is what sport is by definition isn't it.
Sailing and not racing is a pastime. Equally as valid as sport.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 9:11pm
I only race and race to win. I was talking about boats.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 9:31pm
The old concept of National classes stemmed from the local one designs of the 20s and 30s. We can now buy a boat from anywhere, so that concept is out of date but there is still an argument that supporting certain types of boat, outside of the boat international circuit, would be good for the health of the sport of dinghy racing in the UK. I can't see that as elitist, but can see cons as well as pros.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 11:17pm
But at the end of the day .. all this is simply NOT going to happen any time soon !
RYA today chase income streams and if they were ever daft enough to in effect encourage those 'other'classes (the majority remember) to go forth - they would do exactly that and with their money and following.
All this is simply missing the point - the majority would simply do something else while this sometimes shambolic 'elite' kid themselves they might be 'saving' the sport. All they would be in fact be is simply the new generation of self-important 'old farts' as Will Carling might well have put it ... Fidding while Rome burns etc comes to mind ... 
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by Oinks
I'm with Davidyacht on this. I think it would be good for people to easily see what are the "Premier" classes in the UK and, for want of a better way of putting it, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th division classes. It could work both ways...some may aspire to the premier classes, others might use such classifications to avoid those classes. There's a driver in there for classes to work towards becoming a "Premier" class. I would go further and say only those in certain categories could term their annual big event "a national championship", others could hold a championship regatta or something. I'm for structure! All the way.
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But don't we already sort of know that anyway? And here's the problem....if we adopted the RS200 as the Premier double-handed assymetric hiking class then it has too narrow a competitive weight range to be nationally selected. Of course we could have the RS400 - but the same problem applies. So what else would you chose?
And see what I did there - Premier double-handed Assymetric Hiking Class - wouldn't we then end up with so many variants that we'd be back where we started.
And we're kidding ourselves if we don't already think that the term "national championship" doesn't already reflect different things in different classes to different people. At the risk of offending someone, it's widely recognised that there is a great difference between being Solo or Supernova NAtional Champion on the one hand, and on the other Comet Zero.
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by Cirrus
But at the end of the day .. all this is simply NOT going to happen any time soon !
RYA today chase income streams and if they were ever daft enough to in effect encourage those 'other'classes (the majority remember) to go forth - they would do exactly that and with their money and following.
All this is simply missing the point - the majority would simply do something else while this sometimes shambolic 'elite' kid themselves they might be 'saving' the sport. All they would be in fact be is simply the new generation of self-important 'old farts' as Will Carling might well have put it ... Fidding while Rome burns etc comes to mind ... 
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Especially given the capital we all have invested in our craft.....
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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 8:27am
Pointless wittering of old farts, let them do what they will do because they are not going to listen and the rest of us just get on and sail.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 9:18am
Originally posted by JimC
and problems with the general operating background are more to do with society changing than anything the RYA has control of. |
Originally posted by Cirrus
times they really have achanged!
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Originally posted by Dougaldog
Nor is this situation unique to sailing, for as Mike@Cirrus rightly says, the world isn't just changing but it HAS changed.
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Google "decline in sports participation" and it appears there is a general decline in many countries globally. The news reports I found that suggest a decline cover the US, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand........some sports are flourishing but in general there is a decline. Attitudes to sport and life in general are changing and sailing is taking a hit. I do think Jim is wrong however when he implies that there is nothing the RYA can do about it. Sure the RYA has no control over how the population think or behave but the RYA could start looking at ways in which the sport can be adapted to suit the new mindsets.......firstly of course they will have to find out what the modern attitudes are and that won't be easy (as dougaldog says) for a bunch of old guard folks who still bang on about the 60's and 70's A thread was started on these forums 10 yrs ago suggesting that participation figures for sailing were starting to decline rapidly. The RYA have had time to at least think about it but it doesn't seem as if they have. Too busy chasing Gold Medals to consider the grass roots which is where any resurgence in interest will come from. IMO
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 10:01am
I think this is about structure and aspiration; us old 70's and 80's farts quite liked (and still like) bimbling around with our boats, some of us even built them in the garage or at least painted them, and we were happy to do our turn in the galley, or attending working parties, rescue boats and race officers.
With classes, it is clear that the successful classes are now those that offer a turnkey, off-the-shelf solution, and even the "traditional" classes that have succeeded are those that have adapted to that mindset.
Likewise, it would appear to me that successful clubs, and I accept that this is a sweeping statement with some notable exceptions, are those that are moving toward a "sports centre" with a slipway, with a lot of the deliverables essentially contracted out.
To be fair to the RYA, it has helped in this regard, and many clubs have had assistance to move in this direction, by facilitating Inspired Facility funding.
I may be misreading this, but I feel that some form of support toward "Approved or National Classes" by the National Authority might serve to help those coming into the sport or up through the youth systems, to identify a clearer pathway to involvement in the sport, than having to consider the merits of 100's of different classes.
I also thing that the third part of the expectations for the future are about coaching, I accept that the RYA has put in place schemes, but I am not so sure as to how easy it is to get coaching at club level; I think that this is partly due to clubs not really engaging with coaching for adults at committee level, but also if a club is to have its own coaching resources someone has to do it. It would be great to see a register of coaches which a class at a club could log into, and circumvent the process in between.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 10:05am
Originally posted by transient
...consider the grass roots which is where any resurgence in interest will come from. |
The sport probably teaches more kids to sail than it has ever done. That is at least a large reservoir of folks who can sail and know it can be fun who could take it up again in later life should they choose to do so.
The RYA also has push the boat out day, which is a considerable effort that perhaps not as many clubs get involved with as they should. Then there's also all the support and organisation behind all the sailing schools and holiday organisations that introduce people to sailing.
I really don't think our major problem is a shortage of people getting exposed to sailing. I think the problem - if you can call a change in society a problem - is the bucket list dilettante mentality which doesn't sit well with a sport that is rather frustrating to do really casually.
But if the sport as it is doesn't suit as many people as it used to, is that a problem that we should try and solve, or a situation we should accept and adapt to? I don't know how you'd adapt competitive sailing to be like the one week a year ski holiday, nor how you'd try to - seems to me that market is well supported by flotilla holidays and the likes of Sunsail...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 10:16am
Something you 'old farts' miss, is that many of us young tyros eventually slow down and look for more suitable things for their continued enjoyment.
Do you think for one moment someone like me would put up with all the crap we have to if we were still in the full flush of our youth and exuberance? Man the galley? Really? why would I do that? It's windy I'm here to <insert relevant sport> and rules? Aren't they there to be broken?
There comes a time in life when you do aspire to build something, mess about in boats, rediscover youthful skills, we're even a marketing demographic, we're mature empty nesters, just looking for something that is going to provide mild exercise as well as mental stimulation, bugger me if remembering the 9 buoy layout of our lake isn't a defence against alzheimers I don't know what is.
So rather than decry the aged, they should be considered a target market, you'd get more joy from that group than you will hoping kids are going to survive everything the RYA has to offer, ask my daughter, the one that beat Bryony Shaw at her first nationals and never sailed again after meeting the RYA in it's full splendour, they are for the most part populated by a sailing sports sales prevention team and if ever we want to reverse the downward spiral need totally overhauling.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 10:31am
I was at Southampton Boat Show chasing up a story (something very different to the one on here) when I bumped into a fairly major 'player' in the provision of certain services to the sport. In the past, he has always been good for an insightful soundbite and he didn't let me down this time. The topic (at that moment) was the changing dynamic in marina rentals, something he felt that was being impacted on by a new set of social values. The quote was along the lines of "if it floats, flys or ****s, then lease it", Sure, a casual dismissal of much that does go on BUT, I am aware of some of our more ground breaking clubs that are already looking at a 'pay and play' set up. It makes some sense if you think about it; if you have a crew on one day, you take out a double hander, no crew and you take out a single hander. A radical way of thinking and one that will have those long in the tooth purists shuddering with fear but again - why not? He did go on to say that the European model was different again - as was the set up in many of the new emerging sailing nations. What we mustn't do is kid ourselves that these changes won't happen, If we go back to Jim C's original post - a club offering any of those 5 boats on a pay and play basis would, as he makes clear, accommodate most of the sailing population today. Of course you won't get the highly individual boats - Merlins, 505s, Moths in that list, but a fairly standard 'all the controls are in the same place' SMOD, so it doesn't matter which boat you get in any given class......In the end, just doing the same things and hoping for a better result just isn't going to work!
D
------------- Dougal H
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 11:37am
We've tried the lease model at our club alongside the regular club boat thing. It wasn't a failure, but it wasn't a great success either.
The big trouble with the leasing model is hours of usage. For a racing club everyone wants their boats for the same two hours of every week. So that's a barrowload of capital earning nothing most of the time. Then really you also need a paid hand to make sure every boat is fully equipped, maintained and ready for the sunday race, because volunteers are going to be concerned with being in the race themselves.
So its going to be bloody expensive, which in turn means you're targeting the executive class with cash to burn, and not the cash restricted ordinary middle class that was the traditional mainstream sailing club membership. There's also an awful lot of other sports targeting those people.
The model can probably work at a sort of sports centre type place that is next to a lake and caters for training, other sports and so on, think combination of WPNSA and the council's outsourced sports centre, but it sure as hell doesn't sound like any place I want to be. TT, on the other hand, probably thinks it sounds perfect.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 12:06pm
Bewl springs to mind 
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by transient
...consider the grass roots which is where any resurgence in interest will come from. |
The sport probably teaches more kids to sail than it has ever done. That is at least a large reservoir of folks who can sail and know it can be fun who could take it up again in later life should they choose to do so.
The RYA also has push the boat out day, which is a considerable effort that perhaps not as many clubs get involved with as they should. Then there's also all the support and organisation behind all the sailing schools and holiday organisations that introduce people to sailing.
I really don't think our major problem is a shortage of people getting exposed to sailing. I think the problem - if you can call a change in society a problem - is the bucket list dilettante mentality which doesn't sit well with a sport that is rather frustrating to do really casually.
But if the sport as it is doesn't suit as many people as it used to, is that a problem that we should try and solve, or a situation we should accept and adapt to? I don't know how you'd adapt competitive sailing to be like the one week a year ski holiday, nor how you'd try to - seems to me that market is well supported by flotilla holidays and the likes of Sunsail...
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I'm not saying the RYA have ignored the grass roots completely......it's more about emphasis. I don't know how you'd adapt competitive sailing to be like the one week a year ski holiday either but take the word competitive out of the comment and it might be doable, well, maybe for 4 or 5 weekends of the year. We have quite a good turnover of RYA 1&2 adults. They do the course and don't take up racing, some do but most don't. They might sign up for the improvers courses on thursday evenings and do them for a few years. Some are regular Club Summer Camp goers down at Chichester harbour. Some do our sea week and cruises.......It's the closest I've seen to "dipping into the sport". These folk do tend to get looked down upon by the regular racers though.............try making a point of being more accepting. Mention it at com meetings. Challenge folk who you catch being scornful. By the way I have a friend who sails cats......there, I've done it now, I've come out 
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 12:20pm
Bewl? You mean that speedboat lake with very little water?
http://www.kentonline.co.uk/weald/news/bluebird-returns-to-the-water-132643/" rel="nofollow - http://www.kentonline.co.uk/weald/news/bluebird-returns-to-the-water-132643/
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
I think this is about structure and aspiration; us old 70's and 80's farts quite liked (and still like) bimbling around with our boats, some of us even built them in the garage or at least painted them, and we were happy to do our turn in the galley, or attending working parties, rescue boats and race officers.
With classes, it is clear that the successful classes are now those that offer a turnkey, off-the-shelf solution, and even the "traditional" classes that have succeeded are those that have adapted to that mindset.
Likewise, it would appear to me that successful clubs, and I accept that this is a sweeping statement with some notable exceptions, are those that are moving toward a "sports centre" with a slipway, with a lot of the deliverables essentially contracted out.
To be fair to the RYA, it has helped in this regard, and many clubs have had assistance to move in this direction, by facilitating Inspired Facility funding.
I may be misreading this, but I feel that some form of support toward "Approved or National Classes" by the National Authority might serve to help those coming into the sport or up through the youth systems, to identify a clearer pathway to involvement in the sport, than having to consider the merits of 100's of different classes.
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Slipways, and hire boats rather pushes the prices up and numbers down.
And typically newcomers don't have to consider 100's of boats. They will see what is sailed at the club and probably go for a boat that's more likely to be suited to that water.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by iGRF
Bewl? You mean that speedboat lake with very little water?
http://www.kentonline.co.uk/weald/news/bluebird-returns-to-the-water-132643/" rel="nofollow - http://www.kentonline.co.uk/weald/news/bluebird-returns-to-the-water-132643/
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The tide was out again.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 12:31pm
[/QUOTE]
I don't know how you'd adapt competitive sailing to be like the one week a year ski holiday either but take the word competitive out of the comment and it might be doable, well, maybe for 4 or 5 weekends of the year.
[/QUOTE]
I like to think of a Regatta or a National Championships in much the same vain as a boys week skiing holiday; socialising, eating and drinking centred around a consuming passion, enjoying the elements, with plenty to chat about at the end of the day.
However the competitive element tends to have more dangerous consequences on the piste than it does on the water.
It is possible that a more festival type regatta would be more suited to equivalence with a Family ski trip ... maybe this should be focused on more by Regatta organisers ... i.e. drop the kids at ski school = drop the kids at the beach to have fun in Teras working toward an competitive event at the end of the week.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 12:44pm
But we have these events already - think Salcombe week or Falmouth week
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by sargesail
And we're kidding ourselves if we don't already think that the term "national championship" doesn't already reflect different things in different classes to different people. At the risk of offending someone, it's widely recognised that there is a great difference between being Solo or Supernova NAtional Champion on the one hand, and on the other Comet Zero.
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allow me to assist....
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 9:16pm
From the barely veiled condescending title to several "I'm so smart and clever" contributions this has been for me an overwhelmingly unpleasant read.
Obviously I now sail and race a minority class and another not so minority class primarily for the sheer pleasure of it.
However I sail / race most weekends 9 months a year and since taking up sailing in my 40s have introduced / trained five people to two person single wire dinghies; all remain sailing and three had been awarded best improvers.
I fail to see how my choice of non top five classes has adversely impacted on the popularity of sailing and racing.
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Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
I don't know how you'd adapt competitive sailing to be like the one week a year ski holiday either but take the word competitive out of the comment and it might be doable, well, maybe for 4 or 5 weekends of the year.
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I like to think of a Regatta or a National Championships in much the same vain as a boys week skiing holiday; socialising, eating and drinking centred around a consuming passion, enjoying the elements, with plenty to chat about at the end of the day.
However the competitive element tends to have more dangerous consequences on the piste than it does on the water.
It is possible that a more festival type regatta would be more suited to equivalence with a Family ski trip ... maybe this should be focused on more by Regatta organisers ... i.e. drop the kids at ski school = drop the kids at the beach to have fun in Teras working toward an competitive event at the end of the week. |
Exactly right. I've never done a ski week but presume sometime is spent skiing and the rest socialising / being with family / sightseeing etc.
As I've posted before, NW Norfolk Week provides all of this and I believe Salcombe Regatta does too.
------------- 3513, 3551 - National 12
136069 - Laser
32541 - Mirror
4501 - Laser 4000
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 9:34pm
I've heard it all now, comparing a week ski-snowboarding with a regatta week? You can't get more chalk and cheese, one is fun and frivolity from start to finish the other is a competitive dirge with all manner of rule pitfalls and disciplines to follow or be binned.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 9:41pm
Please have a look at http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/youth-junior/info/Pages/recognised-classes.aspx
This sort of started my train of thought ... why do Junior classes get the benefit of guidance in class selection, whilst adult classes don't seem to get the same level of support.
Frankly, I should not really be concerned, I get to sail in a 15-20 boat one design fleet with my mates in a nice place every weekend and I suspect that this will carry on until my body gives up, but it is quite obvious that there is a huge gap behind for the 20 to 45 age group, so I suppose it is incumbent on us to think about how to develop the sport for the next generation.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 10:26pm
Seems to me, the 20-35 age group at least has all come up through the youth system and know all about fleet racing, large events and all the rest of of it, together with training, coaching and technique way beyond what most of my generation ever experienced. So for people like me to tell them how to have fun sailing would be worse than pointless, it would be plain ridiculous. How can a sailor of say 25 possibly want or need guidance from me about what boats to sail or what kind of events to do? Hell most of them have done more major International events than I have!
TBH the thing I'd most like to know is how to get that generation more involved in running the sport 'cause its much more fun to sit back and reminisce about the wonderful way things used to be than it it is to try and second guess how they want things set up now. I know its a popular meme to say the old farts won't let go, but I reckon that's another one of those "everyone knows" things that is b****x. Go on under 30s, get involved in running your clubs. Put your names down for those elections. My only advice would be to keep a couple of the old b******s around so that you can learn what their mistakes were in order to avoid repeating them. But only a couple.
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 10:38pm
Here here Jim.
------------- OK 2129
RS200 411
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 11:02pm
'Old farts' .. are not necessarily that old at all. It is, if anything, an attitude that always suggests that 'times past' are of course the model to follow.. conveniently forgetting all the **** stuff that went with it. They also often seek 'more control' and limitation as the solution to almost any problem.
Equally do remember there are plenty with more than a few miles on the clock are NOT 'Old farts' in their approach at all..
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 7:18am
Blimey, anyone who wants to investigate the idea of revamping the National classes is now automatically an old fart, and just plain wrong? And people older than 30 have no right to discuss the future? Sounding like current politics.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 7:32am
All becoming very divisive.
David H recently warned RYA thinking was turning towards pre War elitism.
Presumably Foilers at top of tree, followed by?
What is considered to be elite classes?
Comet zero National champion already assigned to bottom.
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