When is a class dead?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12861
Printed Date: 04 Jul 25 at 4:58pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: When is a class dead?
Posted By: Old Timer
Subject: When is a class dead?
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 2:37pm
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Seems there are many classes that don't seem to gain critical mass ... they then seem to go through various end of life activities. When should we consider a class dead??? When they stop building new ones? When the CA is no longer? When they can get more than say, 30 at the nationals? ... and which classes would we consider now dead? |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 4:35pm
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No builder, no CA, no meet ups of any sort. Otherwise, it isn't dead, just sailed by a select few enthusiasts!
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 4:35pm
| It’s all a matter of conjecture... ask me a year ago and I would have assumed (wrongly) the RS600 dead- killed by the holy trinity of better skiffs, a false foray into foiling and the age old issue of it being a complete pig to sail without commitment.... however they are now attracting circuit numbers greater than that of some of the more popular RS classes to have graced these fora ... no fat lady has sung yet it seems. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 5:11pm
Not until it no longer gets the occasional mention on these forums  Now about the Spice....... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 5:46pm
| Was the Minisail CA largest class to collapse ? |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 5:53pm
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Mini sail is still going strong enough thanks to Rupert.
A class is normally dead when Graeme buys in... |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 6:02pm
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I am a member of current class association, I am talking about original CA. Agree regarding Rupert, in the few months he has taken a back seat, class ceased to function, no Nationals, website gone etc.
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Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 7:29pm
| A class is dying or dead when it appears in the RYA historic Portsmouth Number List... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 8:13pm
| I think all attempts to make hard categories are probably doomed. Consider the Thames Raters. Probably less than 25 have been built over the last 115 years, and they are only really sailed at two clubs. I don't know they've ever qualified for a published Portsmouth number. But there's no way I'd describe them as a dead class. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 9:39pm
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Minisail was kept alive by a chap called David who put a website together long before it was commonplace to do so, which drew in several of us who were looking for other people daft enough to still sail them. Through the cvrda we put meetings together, which is still happening now. We found that there were enthusiasts in Belgium, one of whom had even built a new boat. They came to play too, which meant we had enough boats to actually call something a Nationals. David has certainly visited Belgium to sail, as well. Many owners have gone on to own other boats too, and this is one reason why it is difficult to gather the sailors together in one place in Minisails.
My role has been mainly to blather on about them on places like this, do some coaching and provide some advice on getting boats back onto the water. My current project, a yellow decked boat destined to be called Minion, is going to be used as a stand up paddle board as well as a sailing dinghy. A nice new sail is on its way from Ian Morgan, and I'm currently sorting out rudders, boards, fittings etc, all as they were back then, but hopefully tweaked so they work. The original CA did implode, it seems, which shows that a CA and a design of boat aren't one and the same thing. Another example, I've owned 5 Tonic dinghies over the years. Great fun to sail, a real tippy blast in a blow, and as a dinghy I loved them, till my knees hurt too much. But there never was a CA, as far as I'm aware. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 10:44pm
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Boss, Spice, Buzz .... all dead? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 10:59pm
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Maybe staggering on in the hands of a few enthusiasts.... I can only talk about Spice first hand, I have one but I have never seen another in the flesh (I guess only 65 built, probably half went to sailing centres in the UK and abroad). Boss seems equally unloved but the Buzz and ISO are still managing to soldier on as active classes. I suppose Boss and Spice could be considered to be on 'life support' if not actually dead but if there are actively sailed/raced boats somewhere a class can't truly be considered dead can it?
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 11:26pm
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I've seen a spice, early this year in the hands of Richard Bower from Castle Cove. It is daughters but he was helming at the time. Very yellow if I remember correctly, like most of them. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 22 Sep 17 at 11:38pm
| Someone at my club has an ISO for sale. 😀 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 7:28am
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A Class being dead means something different from there being no examples left of a particular design, doesn't it?
Our own Mr Henshall was worried a few years back that no Darings existed any more. However, I believe one came to light recently. Doesn't mean a "class" exists again, but the boat itself isn't totally extinct, at least for a time. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 8:36am
Is he really going to sell it this time? I thought it was just mothballed for some day in the future that realistically will never come or has her indoors put her foot down 
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 9:25am
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Boats remain long after class activity is dead. A few die yards refusing to accept a design is a dog and soldering on does not equate to a class ...
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 10:42am
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Define terms. What is a "Class"? |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 11:32am
| Define 'dead? When do we know if a sailor is dead? Questions have been asked about me.... |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 11:45am
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Isn't it when they disappear to deepest Kent and ancient men dump them on a stony beach muttering how much lighter, better he could have made them and then he wanders off dreaming of his own handicap system that no matter how badly he sails he wins.
------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 2:29pm
A class is a design of dinghy defined by a set of rules.
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Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 6:26pm
20 plus years ago I went to tbe dinghy show to buy an Iso. Luckily my route to the stand went past the Severn Sailboats stand who were doing a special offer on Fireballs. Lucky escape for me! My 4thFireball was great!!! |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 7:04pm
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Is there anything positive to take from this thread? ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 7:28pm
Seems obvious really. Edit. I suppose you could say: If there are no boats in existence but there are drawing and rules then it's still not dead......... it's just resting. |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 8:27pm
| Are the rules the dinghy? Do we need the dinghy in solid form? Marcel Duchamps exhibited a urinal and called it art. He replied to doubters, "If I call it art then it is art". Art is something in my own perception. A boat does not need to exist. The idea is all you need. |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Sep 17 at 9:41pm
| Wow this is getting weird |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 1:14pm
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If classes were deselected, whatever that means, by the RYA that would perhaps encourage more people into the active classes boosting the levels of class racing that would have to be better. All these near defunct classes kicking around just seem to cut a realativly small pie smaller. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 2:00pm
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I don't think the RYA sees it as its business to mandate what people sail, nor do I think its their business to. The RYA does encourage youth sailors into a limited number of classes that have support. Its interesting really that so many people get out of class racing as soon as they can.
As for the size of the pie, doing a quick sum on the PY number of races, more than 60% of PY racing is done in the top 10 most popular classes, nearly 80% in the top 20, and getting on 90% in the top 30. There doesn't seem to be that much pie being cut out anyway. By definition near defunct classes aren't diverting many people from popular classes. |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 7:51pm
| Well if you look at the fleet sizes in the youth classes looks like the ryas nomination does a lot of good. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 8:57pm
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But how many of them give up because the 'youth classes' are either too hard to sail or unsuitable for the typical venue (29er) or boring and 'uncool' (Topper/Oppie) when there are much more suitable boats out there? The RYA clearly does a lot of good stuff but getting kids to transition from youth squad to adult racing is not a strong point....... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 24 Sep 17 at 11:36pm
| It isn’t in many sports Sam, especially equipment heavy ones which rely on weather, cash and free time. |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 7:51am
| Since we have the CVRDA (Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association) to provide racing and support for "Lost Classes" - any class designed before 1985 which does not have a class association or current builder - can any class of that era actually be truly "dead"? |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 12:35pm
Every sport loses youth participants as the transition from living at home and going to school to uni, employment and home ownership ... Especially a sport which is time-consuming and expensive. Having a few popular classes and finishing off the obviously dead ones seems like it would help that ...
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 1:05pm
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So lets have a list of "obviously dead" classes you would kill off, and tell us how you would kill them off?
The dead classes have one useful role: because they are dirt cheap to buy they provide a route onto the water for people who don't have any other choices. They do need to appreciate that they probably won't be able to sell of course. |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 1:14pm
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Well there are plenty of classes that show little signs of life. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 1:18pm
as Jim says, a list would be handy.... from my own point of view, if it weren't for access to an 'RS600 at Laser money' back in the early 2000's/ my 20's, I'd have binned off sailing a long time ago.... especially if the only option were to sail Lasers and/or Solos.
|
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 1:25pm
| One sure way to put a spark under a quiet class, tell them their boats are banned from all RYA affiliated clubs. |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 1:34pm
I am sure we can all see the classes that are inactive ... My point is that if the dead wood could be cleared perhaps the rest would flourish ...
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 1:46pm
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One sure way to put a spark under a quiet class, tell them their boats are banned from all RYA affiliated clubs ... Yes and well of course ... what a great idea ! It would certainly boost RYA affiliation by clubs and produce a massive boom in personal memberships as well. All we really need is forceful and strong leadership of the type you suggest, it is after all todays namby pamby elite that is behind the current decline ... Let's make everything just 'Great Again' ...and while we are at it ...etc etc. |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 1:52pm
| The earlier point made by Old Timer regarding the role of the RYA does, I think, have some merit. Whilst I don't think classes should be "deselected" as such, the old "International" and "National" classifications did allow people both already in the sport and beyond to see some sort of structure. And whilst elements on this forum seem to prefer the current anarchic state of affairs, I do actually think the RYA as the sports governing body do have a role to play here. Who else is so well placed to have some sort of oversight? It wouldn't have to be especially heavy handed, but the current free-for-all does not, I think, work to the benefit of the sport as a whole. |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 1:55pm
| I am a bit confused by the argument that says that if you get rid of the "dead classes" that it will solve the problems and stop the decline of the sport. Most clubs I have been at have one or two strong classes and a strong handicap fleet made up of a totally random selection of boats. If you fit into one of the larger classes (budget, sailing style and body size/weight) then I guess most people opt for that but in most clubs there is always a large and happy bunch of people who want to choose a boat that is not a solo and sail that. By killing off that choice I think you would accelerate sailing demise! |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 2:03pm
I would agree we could all write a prejudiced list of classes that we may no longer interact with - but 'dead', or just going through a bad patch.... I'd say we're getting it right and letting the market decide, rather than expecting the RYA to bull doze in on this one.
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Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 2:16pm
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At the risk of seeing an otherwise interesting thread hijacked into a "what have the Romans, sorry, RYA, done for us" debate, I do fear that some of the comments made above about a cull of older, smaller, less active classes (and maybe clubs too) isn't a million miles from where the RYA mindset now resides. If it hasn't got an association with the following short list of words; elite, champion, youth, Olympic, squad, foiling and TV friendly.....then they could actually live without it and would love to only have to run a slimmed down and elitist group sailing a small number of classes. This is not just a case of a few choice words said in jest, for I see example after example of a growing gulf opening up between the highly managed elite side of the sport and an almost 'leave them to their own devices' hands off approach to the growing number who sail outside of organized race activity. When I look at the RYA now, I get an uncomfortable feeling of the days of dear old DR. Beeching, looking at the railways. Complex, scattered right across the country, 80% of the revenue came from 20% of the network. So cull the ineffective 80% and move on. The last couple of weeks I've been getting about a bit (I even risked heading into Kent, but the sage of the South East was absent) and I now have people coming up to me at sailing clubs, telling me pretty much the local version of the above, which suggests that the thinking is not that far off course. The big problem however is that many of these ills are, I fear, a disease of the UK; go abroad at the dynamics can be very different! D
------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 2:26pm
Not quite sure how that could be achieved without a very high level of dictatorial insensitivity, do this or else type thing. Many wouldn't want to be part of a sport that operated in that manner. |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 3:21pm
or alternatively, if it HAS got an association with the following short list of words; elite, champion, youth, Olympic, squad or TV friendly, I'd happily see it culled (foiling, I might let live). We might then fail to put off so many. But all Skippers, Laser 13s and Laser 16s need to go on the pyre regardless. It would be a kindness to the deluded who might be otherwise tempted ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 3:29pm
Frankly I have no idea what you are classing as dead wood. If you mean classes that maybe manage half a dozen races in the PY return list or less every year from maybe one or two boats, then the amount of dead wood they represent is nearly nothing, and banning them would make next to no difference to anything. If on the other hand you mean classes that get less than 30 boats at a Nationals that's, well... |
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 3:51pm
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That's where it gets personal and subjective Jim. I don't think you would say the canoes are a dead class (and neither would I ) but looking at the report to Y&Y from Weymouth I only count 28 boats. Likewise can a class be dead if it only gets a few boats at the nats or even no nats but still has a big following in nearby countries - thinking of the Europe here. ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 3:55pm
Perhaps the RYA could do it in a more positive way. Maybe we have too many champions. Perhaps if the RYA said it was going to recognise champions in the following categories: - Single hander (hiking) - Single hander (trapeze) - Double hander (hiking) - Double hander (trapeze) Have a lightweight and heavyweight category in each section ... then nominate the equipment ... That may shift more attention to the RYA adopted adult classes .... |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 4:16pm
| What the hell has the RYA got to do with this? If we have interesting boats and friendly clubs then we will see more people out there. Our little pond at South Cerney had ten boats out for a pursuit race this last Saturday (including Albacore, Solo, Laser, Vareo, Hadron, Topper) plus ten cadets out training, five 420s out with people learning to sail and a handful of others pottering about. Thirty boats out on a small pond at the end of September and I doubt anyone mentioned the RYA at any point!! |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 4:20pm
err... well they are the governing body for our sport ...
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 4:23pm
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The vast majority of those who sail .... DO NOT RACE. Prescriptions
suggested that restrict what people 'aught' to race, how they should race, and
in 'what' they should race will not make any +ve difference whatsoever.
Possibly the exact opposite in fact. Changing the sport to 'chase the money' coming
from TV will not help either imo - waste of time except perhaps for those
directly supping at the trough. Tinkering with formats etc in the vain
hope that 'something will change surely’ is also doomed even if it is that
'itch' some find just impossible to resist. Be sure that nothing is likely to produce a new golden age (aka 60's or 70's) in this sport. But the last thing that attracts anyone new is 'top down edicts' from keyboard politicos or distant ‘organisers’ telling them what they 'should' like, how they should enjoy it, what they should sail or aim to emulate... if they keep hearing such ‘encouragement’ ... well they are more likely simply do something a bit more enjoyable – ie easy going and above all FUN. |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 4:27pm
| Sure so let them Govern, set the rules, run the championships and determine who goes to the Olympics etc. None of that will affect who shows up next weekend at your club. That will be determined by whether it is easy to learn, there are appealing boats to buy that reflect the modern human body and the people in the club are friendly and kind. If your club is not doing so well, perhaps you should ask some tough questions of whether you are all a bunch of nerds that no one likes to hang around with rather than asking what the RYA is going to do! |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 4:29pm
| So - lets start a discussion on which type of sailors we want to kill off rather than which boats are dead.... |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 4:30pm
spot on.... a run of clement weather also helps too I guess.
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 4:33pm
So we don't think the RYA has a role in developing participation at grass roots level?
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 4:36pm
of course they do... which is why there's a network of instructors and regional bods to tap into to get your occasional potterer into a racing snake.... just don't tell them what to do it in, they will find out for themselves ultimately and make their own minds up.
|
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 4:42pm
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They should have but they are not very good at it. The common perception of RYA is that of youth squads, Olympic hopefuls and proscribed 'training' courses when most people would be far better just learning by 'messing about in boats' as nearly all sailors of my generation did. For me as a kid, sailing gave me a level of freedom that was a good step up from what most of my non sailing friends had, even in those more liberal days.
Regarding dead classes, it's probably much easier to define classes that are definitely alive....... As a sailor of a 'dead class' which gives me a huge amount of enjoyment I would resent and resist any attempt to restrict my opportunities to sail her. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 4:47pm
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It's easy to sl*g the RYA off... and you can't beat a good giggle at anyone still wearing a Blazer with Chinos, but let's be honest.... most clubs (the adults in them anyway) probably want as little intervention as humanly possible. The resources are there to tap in to if clubs want them...
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 4:53pm
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Not really seeing much logic in your plan Old Timer, as others have pointed out, if a class has insignificant activity then it is hardly impacting on the majority or offering many candidates to convert to bigger classes. To my mind there are people who like sailing and people who like racing and a middle ground that blends the two. A diktat may possibly suit the pure racers but perhaps not sit so comfortably with the rest of Club members. I think it comes back to a question I've asked before. Is what sailing clubs offer a sport or a pastime? Before you offer solutions you need to clarify the illness you are trying to cure. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 5:11pm
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Sorry Cirrus @ 4.24. I missed your post. Yes you're spot on
  |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 5:54pm
| Cirrus, I was being ironic, my boat list is Enterprise, Minisprint, Mirror and Tinker Traveller, hardly main stream, I am also CVRDA. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 8:04pm
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I spent the weekend running evil RYA courses. I put 6 people through level 2 or 3. I'm pleased to say that whilst being forced to confirm to RYA ideals, no one declared they were giving up sailing for good as they cried whilst I beat them with a tiller extension.
In fact, they seem to have had a great time messing about in boats while more experienced sailors passed on ways of improving their sailing and therefore enabling them to get more from their hobby. We did the L2 in Comet Trios, which would probably qualify for this strange banned list, the L3 in a Trio, a 2000 and Q'bas. Boats owned by some of the sailors included a Blokart, Tideway and West Wight Scow, which I can safely say don't represent mainstream RYA thinking. But what they learned on the course will help them anyway. I suspect the only time the RYA was mentioned was in the context of the RYA wind blowing down the whiteboard, but without the training schemes they have, none of the above would have happened. I don't believe that simply messing about in boats would bring as many people into the sport and keep them there. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Sep 17 at 11:43pm
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I was not suggesting RYA courses are evil just that they are only one way to learn to sail. They will suit some people and discourage others. If an RYA level one course had been my only option 50 years ago I doubt I would be sailing now.......... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 7:49am
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Why would it be an only option, even now? And why would it have put you off? I can see it could if badly run, but that would be the same for any introduction to any activity. All L1 does is give you an idea of what sailing is like and teach you easy ways to do things like tack, which can cause issues if figured out without help. Some sailing background, and a chance to sail without an instructor rounds things off.
All easily possible with say, a friend who sails, too. Harder to figure out from books, but can still be done. Courses can also make you new friends, and if done when there are other sailors around, show what is possible as you progress. What follows an introduction to sailing, whatever form it takes, is far more important for long term retention of sailors. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 9:10am
Indeed! Once they have done the course, but don't yet want to (or can) commit to buying their own boat, what do you do to make them stay around? That is the £1.000.000 question for the survival of many clubs, I would think. Also, the RYA courses are great at getting you to a fairly competent level of sailing fast, in two weekends. Then you can mess about in boats at a much higher level, and learn at your own pace. And many people just don't have the time to spend months in the front of a GP14 to pick up through careful observation how all this sailing thing works. Especially if you're new to the sport. I learned sailing with my dad over a long time as a kid, but if I were to try it out today, that would not be an option for me. ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 9:46am
I fully agree with your line of thoughts here - I'd say there's hybrid between the two concepts of 'sport' and 'pastime'- especially considering the propensity to race different boats using a handicap system... a bit like a Zumba or Spin class; or maybe a Sunday group cycle ride. Sporadic competitiveness dispersed across an active pastime... maybe where the sporting challenge is just as much against oneself as is it is against fellow competitors. IMHO - sailing only really becomes a full blown 'sport' when the level of physical and mental agility gets prioritised over the equipment, conditions and luck of the draw- in effect, fleet racing, but as Jim points out, that doesn't appear to be what the majority of UK dinghy sailors want and the one thing no one need is further decimation in participation.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 10:44am
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When I was 12 I was learning to play Flute and teaching myself guitar (and incidentally learning to sail). My flute teacher was a decent enough teacher and had a good level of success with many of his pupils but the formality of the training put me off, I don't play flute any more but I do play guitar to a good standard...... Just my nature I guess. I did a Windsurfing Instructor course a fair few years ago (because I had been offered a job which ultimately did not come about). Great instructors, thoroughly enjoyed the week as a consequence but IMO a lot of nonsense about correct grip and other such. The formality of it would have put me off windsurfing and I'm very thankful that I taught myself when I first started or I probably would not have had the 30 years windsurfing I have enjoyed. The RYA system clearly works for many but to suggest it is the 'proper' way to learn to sail...... As I said, not evil (Rupert's word not mine) but equally not the best way for everybody. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 11:24am
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As far as I can see over many years of observation those sailors, particularly young sailors, who take starter courses then dump them in favour of racing are the ones to watch.
We have this 14 year old girl..... On the other hand we have professional trainees who train year after year and never sail otherwise. Ben Ainslies or Swallows and Amazon's? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 11:32am
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A class AFAIK is a group of people with unreasonable expectations, and the sooner they're dead the better. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 12:08pm
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Sailing is generally a social activity for the vast majority whether they race or not. When clubs grind on about 'decling membership' they often focus on the racing side ... and seem oblivious to the fact that they have often allowed the social aspects of their club to gently falter/decline/fade away over the years. Even if you don't race regularly, and the majority DO NOT if ever, when the social programme declines so does your interest in the club. Non sailing family members have little to attract them to a club and their family 'occasionals' find more social things to do with their time. Most of the 'good ideas' coming out of typical SC committees to halt any decline seem to be racing related ... come along guys work it out. No Christmas party, or summer one for that matter, no more 'end of season' dinners, or 'start of year' ones, no Bonfire night gathering (cos 'Health and Safety' frightens the worthies running many clubs), fewer and fewer curry and live music nights, closed bars too often as well ... etc etc ... What on earth is there to attract and keep the 'occasionals' and their families there ! .... and then they even get chased to do yet more duties as numbers dwindle. Now there are still some brilliant clubs out there of all sizes .. but they all seem to be disproportionately driven by the social aspects. Get that right and the racing sorts itself out naturally. Ignore the social aspects and you may as well pack up shop completely as you slide down the inevitable slippery slope. |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 12:19pm
| I do agree with you Cirrus that avoiding decline is not linked to pushing racing but at our club they started encouraging people to get out sailing as a first step. They did this by offering a range of club boats for free use - you know the old 420s that no one used or hired so why not get them out on the water anyway... and a few of the more experienced people were on hand to help new comers rig and get on the water, offer friendly advice. Before we knew it "Super Saturdays" had 30 or so boats out there just having fun. The cadets have also been a huge draw for new families and here its been about having fun with the best going on to do racing but its not a hardcore racing focus. We have a good racing turn out but our club has flourished once we worked out how to leverage our best sailors to encourage new people into the sport. For some clubs that will be the social side, for us it was focusing our time on encouraging people to enjoy sailing and letting the small subset that want to race to have fun doing that too. |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 12:50pm
| Not sure our club bears this out....but then we have no bar and it always rains at Barbeque's. Nice to talk to you again at Southampton. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 12:55pm
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I'm not so sure, I made the mistake of club expansion and we went down the 'social member' route then alternate sports, cycling, swimming, sups, who now of course far outnumber the racers and bring with them a different set of values and agendas.
It's not always wise and hindsight can be an exact science, but chasing the 'revenue' can bring with it all manner of consequences that can spoil the club experience according to the style we've been used to, we've had all manner of nastiness this summer, basically thanks to the transferance of the local 'pseudo posh' village playground mentality seeping into our social arena with all the usual cliques and bitchiness. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 2:07pm
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The point made is NOT about attracting 'social members' for revenue purposes - heaven forbid. But it is about providing or maintaining a decent social scene for the existing and future sailing 'occasionals' and their families. They get damn little for their bucks at some clubs now - and drift away. Get the social aspect right and revenue and numbers tend to work out just fine. Overlook or ignore it and you will have to get used to sailing let alone racing in quickly reduced numbers. STOP tweaking the 'proper' racing arrangements - far too many are barking up the wrong tree. Tomorrows club racers and active members are more likely to come from this 'occasional' group (usually the great majority btw) than from existing 'purist' racers whether youth squaddies or not or any other group you might imagine ! Hardly rocket science really .... |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 2:39pm
I can see that working where you have local community, or decent camping facilities in the summer.... but to drive my family out for a club party, nurse two shandies and drive home again....
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 3:02pm
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I
can see that working where you have local community, or decent camping
facilities in the summer.... but to drive my family out for a club
party, nurse two shandies and drive home again....  But then you are not really in that grouping .....
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12861&PN=8&title=when-is-a-class-dead#top" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 3:25pm
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Well I've joined the local surf and paddleboard club - 'club' is a bit strong a word for it, we pay €30 a month and can either use rental kit or leave your own kit (1 board) on site in their secure compound. They also rent hire kit direct to punters - €10 per hour, and I have already taken a couple of guys and girl along who are keen to do a bit more paddle boarding after the initial intro. The place is growing and is becoming a proper destination with 21st century marketing driving traffic. http://www.facebook.com/lacasadelamar/" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/lacasadelamar/
My kids love it there - my eldest daughter has a skateboard lesson next Saturday. And they're just about to launch a new bar with a late night licence- family friendly, but the parties will go on well into the evenings. The sailing club up the road has a similar vibe, although they use a local marina bar and the marina itself for the facilities - very easy going and despite the fact that the age old dilemma (70% of dinghies are Lasers!), I also plan to get involved there too. Hopefully I will finalise the boat plan before Christmas, but it won't be a Laser - either Aero, Zero, 300 most probably... so class racing can't be 'that' important to me it seems. ;-)
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 4:37pm
Yeah but it's very nearly always sunny and warm there. So that helps ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 6:27pm
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My club stopped social side about 5 years ago, dart board gone, bowling alley gone, table tennis gone etc etc. This year not one single race Thursday evening, afternoon better turn out, but no racing. Social side dropped due to lack of organisers, due to decline in membership, natural decline due to older members retiring and deaths, seem to have scattered more ashes on water than Cups and Shields awarded.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 7:03pm
| I imagine alcohol/driving enforcement must have had a big impact on the social scene for many clubs. When I look at my club's membership list I doubt even 1% are within walking distance. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 9:56am
Yep, spot on. |
Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 10:28pm
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I agree 100% with Cirrus too. It is quite easy for a club to be a social success if they are lucky enough to be somewhere where sailing is the main focus of much the local population - typically on the sea and remote from any major conurbation.
The real challenge is for inland clubs where the membership typically travels in all points of the compass and can live up to an hour away. After sailing they just want to get home, maybe through heavy Sunday evening traffic. Social events need to be quite special to tempt people to make that sort of journey in an evening outside of sailing events. I would love to hear of any ideas that have worked for other clubs in this situation. |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 9:55am
Attitudes to drink driving and the smoking ban have certainly change the social side from what went on in the 70s & 80s. I'd argue that the more recent demise to the social scene in sailing clubs has more to do with present day attitudes ... people have become more isolated through technology and are more happy entertaining themselves in their own homes than going out to a social gathering. Just look how many pubs are closing ...
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Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 11:55am
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I totally agree the social side is so important to keeping clubs going and fresh. for Wednesday night sailing one of my clubs (Aberdeen and Stonehaven YC) have the inspired move of adding one more duty to the OOD/Rescue team. When you sign in for the race you also sign in on the chip form and after racing one member of the team calls the local chippy and scoots up to get fish suppers or whatever has been ordered. By the time most are changed and packed away the grub is there and encourages everyone to hand around and have a drink and a chat. Really makes a huge difference to the club atmosphere rather than seeing people melt away after sailing ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 12:09pm
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Sounds fantastic KazRob and what a great location. We generally have a day over to Stonehaven when we are up for mountain walking the Cairngorms; next time we'll make it a Wednesday evening.
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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 12:12pm
| Our Wednesday night series is called HotDogs because we have them with some beer after sailing, its my favourite series! |
Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 8:37pm
We have a sailors supper after our Wednesday Evening Racing. Great idea, people stay as they're hungry and club makes money too. RO/ Support Boat helpers come along too and everyone has a beer or two. Perfect mid-week socialising! ------------- 3513, 3551 - National 12 136069 - Laser 32541 - Mirror 4501 - Laser 4000 |