bouyancy aids
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12831
Printed Date: 04 Jul 25 at 8:49pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: bouyancy aids
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Subject: bouyancy aids
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 3:34pm
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Hi All Looking for a new buoyancy aid after Saturday, capsized about 100m from the finish. Every time I tried to climb back in the foam in the
buoyancy aid shoulder straps hooked under the gunnel of the Phantom stopping me. Normally I wear my BA under the spray top but the zip on the pocket of the BA has jammed and has been puncturing the top. Saturday afternoon did blow up and we were due to finish and it was 28knots with gusts about 30 so if I wasn't holding the boat down it flipped over again. As I tired to pull myself in the boat came with me I think because of the BA. So does anybody make a buoyancy aid that does not have this issue? Hoping for some sensible advice. Gordon ------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Replies:
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 3:45pm
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I have a Dakine impact vest to reduce the amount of bulk. If I were replacing it for a 'proper' buoyancy aid, then I would probably look at the Sandline ones, as again, they look like the lowest bulk you can get away for all the snagging and boom height issues we can suffer. http://suntouched.co.uk/suntouchedsailboats_043.htm" rel="nofollow - http://suntouched.co.uk/suntouchedsailboats_043.htm |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 3:59pm
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I was thinking of checking one of these out. Not tried it yet but looks pretty slimline to me. https://www.roostersailing.com/pd/Diamond-Overhead-Buoyancy-Aid-50N_106103.htm" rel="nofollow - Rooster Diamond ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: IanW
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 4:37pm
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https://www.wetsuitoutlet.co.uk/2017-oneill-reactor-buckle-impact-vest-black-lunar-dayglo-3984eu-p-21286.html
Has anyone tried one of these
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 4:47pm
the buckles are the give-away- looks more like a jetski / wake board jacket rather than a wind powered impact vest. I'd steer clear of that.... unless they offer free returns.
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Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 8:18pm
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This is even more streamline but as it says its for high agility sailors I think I'll give it a miss https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en/categories/wing-and-foil-pfds/product_groups/pfds ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |
Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 8:46pm
Is it burgee-resistant?
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Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 9:14pm
Armour-plated Mike  ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 9:23pm
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That Spinlock Aero looks everything people say they want if you're talking a slim fitting non snag piece of gear. Yes it's expensive but you do effectively get a rash vest included. Mind you the Wing looks quite good as well. I do like what appear to be pretty hefty straps on each side of both designs; I've binned a couple of PFDs because of ineffective or prematurely failed chest adjustment, trying to work in the water with a PFD floating under your chin is no fun. One reason I wear trapeze harness over PFD and I guess some use a rash vest over.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 10:05pm
Seems to me the less agile you are as a sailor the more you need a buoyancy aid that won't restrict you in any way. So some super agile young future Olympian could have a BA far more restrictive than that needed by those of us whose torso no longer moves or bends as well as it used to. Somehow I don't think that's what they mean though! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 9:20am
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I find a tight 'impact vest' type buoyancy aid restricts my breathing far too much for energetic sailing (first tried one windsurfing). I have a Neil Pryde one like the Rooster up there and it's a reasonable compromise, not too bulky and impossible to stop it riding up but it's comfortable, well made and was reasonably priced. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 10:16am
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I just wish they'd make gear for fatties and beer bellies.
Considering a large demographic of sailors are like that there ought to be a market for it. At the moment I know I could lose weight but I ain't, I enjoy beer too much however I am dependant on the stretchiness of neoprene. Which means that after a couple of years when the rubber starts to dry out and lose that stretchiness I guess I need to buy again....or breathe in for longer. Perhaps I've just answered my own statement and that's why they don't. Shame though. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 10:27am
| I wonder if in say 10 years, there'll be online chat about mandatory helmets and different head shapes.... it surely can't be long before the H&S brigade force the issue on headwear too. |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 10:55am
Read Snowheads on this topic! Some would argue that you ski less carefully when wearing a helmet .. presumably you sail less carefully while wearing a bouyancy aid? I am using the Zhik having worn out a Rooster, I must say the Rooster was more supple and a better fit, but the Zhik is wearing much better. If I were designing a bouyancy aid, I would be thinking how to stop it riding up when you are in the water, if you can increase the support that a bouyancy aid provides, this should assist reaching the centreboard when in the water and climbing back in the boat. I know of one person who attaches a crotch strap to his bouyancy aid when it is windy ... not a bad idea imo. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 11:31am
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Hemel snow dome has just made it mandatory .... although I think this is more a case of insurance premiums coming in to play rather than some overt H&S fun police thing. Economics and compensation culture have a lot to answer for. I personally have always snowboarded in a helmet, and in fact had a crash last night at Tamworth where I was glad of my helmet and back protector, but it's interesting the signage up around some french resorts now.... I can see helmets being mandatory on piste within the next 5 years. I think free choice is a good thing on this, but I'd bet a wedge that this is short lived in the Alps. As for sailing - I bought a helmet for windsurfing and I honestly found it the most uncomfortable piece of sailing kit I've owned. It completely ruined my wind awareness and I can hand on heart say that I really 'didn't get used to it' after a few sessions. I certainly wouldn't want to wear one on a dinghy, ever.
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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 11:47am
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When I were nobbut a lad, I had one of those Musto BA's made of lots of tiny air filled plastic compartments. It was much longer than is the norm today, but very comfortable and not bulky. Also had crotch straps to stop it riding up. I guess that standards today would preclude that sort of manufacture as when the bags burst, that's it.... ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 11:57am
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If your old enough you will remember the name of the original supplier.
I am going to Rooster this afternoon so will have a look, also the new Crewsaver might work. I googled the Dakine and would want to see one in the flesh before spending that sort of money also would need to check if it complies for dinghy sailing. Thanks for all the suggestions, like a few I would rather not where one but feel pressurised into it. ------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 12:07pm
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I very much doubt the Dakine 'complies' with dinghy sailing regs, which is precisely why I wear it. ;-) I do wear a helmet if the conditions look like they'll be 'interesting' I get the piss taken regularly for it, there I was last time in that 200 with the youngster wearing no head protection it's blowing 25knots and they're taking the piss out of me? It ended up being the best decision I made getting clouted by the boom in an unfamiliar boat and still retaining my consciousness to assist her. You take these decisions according to your own experiences so I wear it kitesurfing and windy dinghy sailing but never windsurfing, I don't, wont, wear a helmet snowboard or skiing but will on a bike off roading, in fact would probably if I ever went roadie. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 12:08pm
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sort of on topic? Anyone seen one of these in the flesh? Looks interesting, and certainly claims to sort a few of the issues with harnesses and BA's. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/580141349/integra-buoyancy-trapeze-harness" rel="nofollow - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/580141349/integra-buoyancy-trapeze-harness  ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 2:00pm
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Looks quite good. I'm surprised it's not been done before ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 2:03pm
Did you not get one of the Spinlock Wing Phantom edition PDF? If you want to wait until the Nationals there maybe an alternative that will save you a few £ just need to double check the size left |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 4:48pm
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Hi Phil Thanks I have bought a Rooster after trying it on. I did look at the Wing but the padding seemed to start in the same place. Seems none of you are old enough to remember Flobochock (don't know about the spelling) the original air capsule buoyancy
------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 4:51pm
Its as if the brief was make something to kill people by entrapment
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 5:44pm
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No Matt - if you read it rather than jumping to conclusions it is to make it easier to get out of your gear if entrapped. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 5:53pm
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Just think about it for a bit. 18's don't allow BA's. Why? So they can get out of a harness if entrapped (swim down and out). Why do people wear a rash vest over a BA? Because the thing rides up and chokes you, and you float to low without one. Plus its an attempt to be less snaggy in the first place. Put that together on a trap boat and you 'can' have an issue, if you go with the 18's thinking. So this looks like it will be more comfortable and actually safer. Especially with a quick release hook.
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 6:04pm
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If you get seriously trapped you want to be able to get out of the harness easily, having it permanently sewn to something that is keeping it pinned to you whilst underwater is an accident waiting to happen The only conclusion being jumped to was that i didn't look at the details and form an opinion on the evidence as presented to me
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 6:11pm
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LOL... same as ever. The BA is not sewn to a harness. It is the harness. You get out of both at the same time, they are one thing. If you ask me the 'fashion' for wearing a rash vest over everything is the design brief designed to kill someone. Try getting your rash vest off underwater to then get out of your harness next time you are upside down in your 18. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: peterthomas
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 7:47pm
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I think I am going to assume that Matt was confused. This is how it looks to me:
If I wear my BA over my current harness I can't reach the nice big harness catch and even if I could, I would have to remove the BA before I could get out of the harness. With the Integra version I can extract myself from both (because they are one and the same) by releasing one catch. This sounds like an improvement to me |
Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 7:57pm
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Flotherchoc I think was the correct spelling, I think it was French.
Musto also made their version of it (as one of their versions) with detachable arms on it, so it did the job of a spray top too. There were also a couple of manufacturers (Piel and Typhoon among them from memory) who incorporated the buoyancy aid into a wetsuit, but they weren't very popular. It must be time for somebody to re-introduce the Musto longer style shaping? As well as being thinner the waist belt genuinely held the buoyancy aid in position. Today's high fit garments are too high for any belt to fit under the rib cage - no wonder they ride up. For Maxibuddah's interest, Pryde do their buoyancy aid in 3XL and up in sizing, although this isn't really any bigger than most companies XL |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 8:16pm
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Sounds a bit like the windsurfing harness versus buoyancy aid dichotomy...... we were sometimes required to wear a BA but the harness was considered acceptable (a wetsuit was not) despite the move from 'chest harnesses' to 'seat harnesses' (still my favoured option). I suppose the reasoning is similar to the WW2 'May West' lifejacket RAF pilots were compelled too wear..... they did nothing to improve survival but 'made the bodies easier to recover'.....
edit :- Oh and yes, I'm old enough to both remember 'flotherchock' 'life jackets' and to have owned/worn one....... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 11:30pm
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I've actually got a magic marine one that is longer and too big for me. I think I was alluding to sailing gear in general. Its all aimed at those lithe young things. I had a red Musto bubble sausage one for years. Very comfortable and never rode up. Didn't realise how many of the pockets had burst by the time I ditched it. Then had the over-sized magic marine one until that came off over my head at the 2006 Phantom nats at Lyme and I went back to it for the last 2 days. Then got a nice free Crewsaver one. Still rides up but is generally ok. Got a nice Phantom emblem on the back too. Looks great sailing the Finn  ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 9:18am
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Many years ago I took all the foam out of the back of my BA to stop it snagging on the Kicker (note its kicker not vang nasty American word)
on a 505 when tacking facing aft. Thanks for the correction of my spelling, I knew you were all old and I thought your memories had just gone . 
------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 10:38am
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Interestingly, it's from Dutch "vangen" (to catch) and was originally a line from the peak of a gaff to the mast or elsewhere to stabilise it (Gaff rigs are still very common in the Netherlands). No idea why the Americans then used it instead of kicker. Of course, the German term is far more descriptive: "Baumniederholer" (boom down hauler).  ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 11:08am
They don't allow them or they don't mandate them? Back when I sailed 18s I wore a BA on the grounds that the chances of me being injured and unable to swim far outweighed the chances of me being trapped underwater. I still stand by that. But then I'm not an Antipodean macho man. To me it's all echoes of the old 'safer to not to wear a seat belt so that you're thrown clear' argument.
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 4:47pm
New York - (New Amsterdam) was a Dutch colony... I guess this will have influence on language etc... ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 5:09pm
OK I was paraphrasing - allow / don't mandate. I'll go with the Sydney 18 footers league skippers view of things. For instance this article paints a picture of the situations where getting out of your kit is of the highest priority: http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/18ft-Skiffs---Near-death-triggers-call-for-crew-safety-review/149604?source=google.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/18ft-Skiffs---Near-death-triggers-call-for-crew-safety-review/149604?source=google.co.uk ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 23 Aug 17 at 7:29pm
| While it is natural to focus on the hook & harness getting caught I wonder if this is borne out in terms of frequency compared to other tangles. After all the hook is a very simple thing, open ended, smooth and instinctively accessible. Tangles behind you are much more confusing and a simple half hitch of sheet could be a real problem around anywhere especially a lower limb where it is difficult to reach. |