none - not when there's fantastic class racing in N12 & RS200s for lighter weight combos and 400s and Merlins for medium weights.   (And that's excluding all the other machinations of great double handed racing boats like Miracles, GP14s, Albacores, Ents, International 14s etc)

Edit: sorry forgot the Fireball, how can I forget this classic fantastic racing machine!!!

One thing that shows that his allegations are stupid and not just vicious and childish is the fact that he has repeatedly whined how PYs should be based on a measurement formula, and when a measurement formula showed that the Icon's PY was reasonable he ignored it.

on what possible grounds is there any legal precedent?  It's not like WhatCar magazine deliberating and unfairly slating the latest output from Ford/Jaguar/BMW is it?  

The PYAG / RYA aren't even enforcing handicaps, quite the contrary, they lobby clubs to adjust locally....   

As I know a bit of both sides of the Icon story I will keep my own counsel though.

Shame it was a lovely sail and very quick especially on a small puddle inland.

Grumpf feels the RYA/PYAG deliberately scuppered both boats by issuing 'unfair' PY numbers.

I am sure in his own little corner of the UK he can find support.....

schizophrenia can be useful in an argument on the internet.....

 

Sorry But I think the Icon was killed by Cirus selling the rights to Devoti who did nothing with it and then it being sold again to Rondar. They seem to have done nothing with it for now.

I am sure if Mike had kept working on it like he did with the Blaze then a small fleet would have developed as I don't think there is a huge non spinnaker fleet requirement which is not catered for by the Nat12, Firefly or Albacore.

Maybe Cirus realised this and that's why they sold the rights to get there investment back.

I think it had very little to do with the PY. 

Alto launched just when the twin wire thing really began to get going with the 800 and it was up against RS marketing. It also said originally it would use a 505 hull so I think that confused the punters as I agree it looks a nice boat.

OK, his opinion is it's not really about scuppering newcomers, it's about protecting old classes.

What he fails to grasp is that PY is not set up to rate the latest boat sailed by the best-est sailors (say, Winder Merlin with HD rig) against the latest boat (say, brand new Icon) both sailed by (insert rock star name).  It's set up to rate the results pooled by those classes including all the numps and mumpties in battered old tubs.  (although some selective stats are applied to reduce anomalies)

As such, older boats still feature (as they do in real life), and one of the reasons why older classes have a perceived handicap advantage.  

There's lots of theories, conspiracies and moaning.... but in my honest opinion, I've come to the following conclusions:

1- we all know the classes which suit our chosen waters better than those that don't.  

2- we all know the classes which have broad wind range characteristics vs those with narrower appeal

3- we all know what we weigh, how fit we are, how good we are and what type of sailing we're better at.

4- we all know how much we've got to spend and whether that buys a sh*tter or a competitive example

If you really want the best handicap you can get, rate each boat out of ten on the above four criteria and pick the one with the best combined score- I'd double the score on Point 3 and you get a combined total of 50 points.  That will be uniquely personal equation, and f**k all to do with the RYA and the suggested handicap from the PYAG.  

Edit: this is of course missing the entire point of PY, which is to enable you to sail the boat you chose in a competitive environment.  Anyone actually buying a boat for its PY alone, probably needs to evaluate what the hell they are doing, as surely class racing is the real answer to what they seek.

Oh dear, whatever happened to dear Mr Voltaire and his assertion that "I dislike what you say, but will defend the right you have to say it". Curtailing our freedom to take a position is a damned slippery slope and using legal threats or  some form of censorship is a worrying thought. I could well fall foul of such strictures; what we need is more bizarre posts, not less.

All the more so because once again, there is that grain of truth behind what iGRF said. Not in the days of the PYAG, but certainly back in the past there have clear cases of protectionist influences being exerted when new PYs were set, aimed at limiting the commercial attractiveness of new classes . I stress again - this is a historical comment but one that could still be said to have an impact today. The Great Lakes PY setters 'might' be loath today to let a new class sail off an overly beneficial PY and who could blame them! Like the PYAG, they are damned if they do, damned if they don't!

But maybe...just maybe...out of such strange and (to some) unpleasant posts, someone, somewhere might just come up with a workable idea for something better. Our problem, particularly here in the UK with our emphasis on PY sailing, is that with a little bit more effort, we could have something better - but then that something better could equally be subject to the same protectionist influences.

D

seems grossly overpriced for a boat with no circuit, no nationals, no spares when it goes wrong or the consumables wear out and no seeming resale potential....

Mike never sold the right to Devoti as far as I am aware he appointed them the builder.

The Devoti side is a somewhat different story but there are always 2 sides to every story.

The rights may have actually been sold now as I believe Mike looking forward to enjoying a more relaxed way of life since the sale of the Blaze rights to Hartleys.

I believe he is working with Rondar on an Icon variant for the US market though.

No. When I bought my boat (Ent) I didn't even know about PY. It's the last thing on my mind for making such a decision.

I use PY as a rough indicator which boats should be faster/slower than me in our club racing, that's all.

I think the decline in two handed sailing has a lot to do with RYA courses pushing all towards helming.

No training teaching people to crew which misses out those who may want a less responsible role for a while.

I wonder how many people we lose that if they crewed for a while might build confidence enough to stay with the sport.

and that's exactly what it's intended for.... 

Society is more egalitarian these days and no-one needs reminding of their lack of status from non-boat ownership in a sailing club, not when there's a cycling club accessible with a £300 quid job from Halfords. 

A fundamental re-think is needed.... where club owned boats are the norm. 

My costal club does a great job of getting beginners into sailing without a sniff of formal training and RYA levels.....

Originally posted by turnturtle the big issue with crewing is the social cock-blocking that meanders from not being the boat's owner.....   Society is more egalitarian these days and no-one needs reminding of their lack of status from non-boat ownership in a sailing club, not when there's a cycling club accessible with a £300 quid job from Halfords.  A fundamental re-think is needed.... where club owned boats are the norm.

Speak English please.

It might look cool to some but cliches, jargon and street talk don't help sell the sport.

They are established classes for a reason, they work.

For every established class their are a dozen that have fallen by the wayside over the years, some have been said to be great boats.

"Except for the fact the yanks don't have a viable yardstick system either and guess where they will be looking"

Oh really?????? Is that a fact or more of the same old? Last time I looked there was a perfectly viable PY system out there -  no better, nor worse than ours. But with the  distances involved, maybe the need for PY sailing is more valid there than here.

I guess fact checking isn't part of the process here.

D

Surely making specific accusations of dishonesty against volunteers is not something Voltaire would defend.

The reference to defamation was a matter of rhetoric, I admit. But it's a measure of the nature and extent of Grumpf's foul slurs that they are very likely to be seen as defamatory.
 

RS700                                             73.3

One must pity the 420 sailors trying to give 2% to Lasers, or the 400 sailor giving a Vortex 4.5% instead of getting 1+%.  It wouldn't be fun trying to finish ahead of 800s in a 600. And as for the 14 being slower than a 400, or a Moth slower than a 4.7!!!!!!!

The Icon killed its self with numerous builder and spec changes in its early life. 

You are missing the bigger picture though Graeme.... if those who enjoy handicap racing for what it is, enjoy it, then great.  I don't think it could be better supported from the RYA- it's as good as it's likely to get, assuming of course that the current system is retained and the numbers are kept relevant to recent racing data.  It's sailing, it's loosely competitive and it's got structure which given no other option, still seems like better than nothing.

However for all those that find it utterly infuriating, then really the answer is very, very simple and has been for decades- find class racing.  Either travel to sail the boat you want- increasingly that might be overseas, or compromise and sail what is sailed locally.  

Personally I think the general decline in accessible class racing doesn't help matters for competitive sailing; so any attempts to 'sell' a rebooted version of the same old handicap racing, this time with a different set of arguably less reliable and less tested metrics, frankly will lead to a larger churn and even greater loss of participation. 

There are pockets of innovation which I strongly admire - Lymington's Aero fleet, Goreleston's D-Ones, Stokes Bay with their Mustos etc......  but this is not the norm around here unfortunately.

I'd much rather accept my lot at the back of the fleet, even a PY fleet (blaming the boat suitability), than be constantly reminded I'm still 50 over Par like the dudes dropping in off the latest membership drive.  

agreed - but folks signing up for a new boat ought to accept that it'll take time for the national number to acclimatise ...  there's no magic formula any other way, and even if there were, it would probably be more contentious with accusations of designing around the rules and cheque book sailing (IRC has its fair share of critics too) 

Frankly following that logic to conclusion, I would humbly suggest that any new boat can go swing for any number, even an EN, from the RYA/PYAG, if all the volunteers get back are accusations of malice and stupidity.  (I know one guy on the group well enough to state with 100% certainty that he is neither malicious nor stupid.)

probably a good idea... let the owner and his/her club set the initial EN used locally.  Once the data is fed in to the system, then the RYA can get involved.  

Obviously owners are going to want to know before buying a rough idea of the anticipated PN from the manufacturer... let's hope they don't get it so wildly wrong again!

My experience of the Spice is that the original EN of 930, which I believe was manufacturer suggested, is wildly optimistic and good only for big open sea courses. It's pretty much totally unattainable anywhere else. The current suggested PN is 950 which seems reasonable to me (and, given that the number of active boats is probably in single figures there will never be enough returns to generate a proper number).

Oh, there's nothing confected about my outrage. You have made vile and cowardly allegations of corruption time and time again, against a bunch of volunteers. And no, you don't have to name people to defame them. 

And as for your suggestions - there are massive problems with them that we know about because we sailors have tried your "solutions" and you have lacked the honesty to accept that.

the Spice was designed in Brightlingsea - no surprise it performed well over the mud flats in solid easterly breezes.  Had they run down the road to Alton to get its ass handed to it by locals in Fireballs and 505s, I'm sure their calculations may have been different.

I know one manufacturer who deliberately gave their new skiff a harsh handicap- purely to claim they had the fastest (in class) on the market.  

The statistics have won out over time, showing it for the bullsh*t marketing that it was.

To the best of my knowledge, they haven't repeated the mistake and generally have a good working relationship to get their boats a realistic EN as soon as possible.

oohhh.... can't we at least go to the bar at the RORC and nudge, nudge, wink, wink, extra brandy, then shove the stats through the black box first?

ain't that the truth!!! 

but if you're feeling reflective, what about the eventual boat spec, do you think was altered due to external public opinion?  

You always came across as quite determined with its positioning (rightly so), despite the calls for rotating masts, kites and trapezes etc?

But enough about the facts eh....

Thanks TT, I'm still slightly sceptical as to the accuracy of the SMOD builders numbers (both WRT to weight and PN) but I accept that these days they are more easily brought to account (there are clearly some skeletons in the various closets). It would be nice to think that the numbers are more realistic for current production. And, for the record, I do think the PY system is probably about as fair as we can reasonably expect (Spice excepted ).

Deja Vu anyone?

 

As for the Icon - never seen one, but after googling and YouTubing, this looks a great boat. I wish it all the success and a shame it never got off the ground here. Any new class these days needs the full backing and marketing and support of the builder. Selling boats just by making them will never see them get established. There will always be niche builder building older classes for the faithful few, but new classes need a different dynamic. Looks like the Icon needs that to get going.

No one suggests it's some impossible task.  Of course it can be done technically.  It probably could be covered as an undergraduate project at Solent Uni if required.  Data generation is getting cheaper every day.  Roll out is your biggest issue...  

The problem is there is zero appetite for 'it' and 'it' is not clearly defined in the first place.... 

1) are you including a personal handicap in the equation?  

 - are you factoring in weight and height too?  Or is the personal handicap skill based only

 -  if so, who decides what personal handicap is applied?  The RYA?  Club principal officers? 

2) are you adding an age factor to the boat, how for example, are you handling development classes, or even one designs with notable step-changes (e.g. the very popular Supernova)

3) I'm assuming it will cater for wind strength variables, water state and tide?  

4) who is paying for this investment?  The volunteers you hate so much?

5) what happens in the period of churn, when the inevitable intransigence kicks in and half the clubs the country reject it and still run PY?  That sort of seismic split in our broad community would be devastating.  Your eventual proposal, even if clinically could be proved 'better', simply could not withstand the cost of change.

For all these reasons, my suggestion to you is to find a boat with class racing and forget about handicap racing.  It's so abundantly clear that it really is not to your liking and measuring the boats, rather than analysing results, isn't going to change that!!!

...but it would at least be computerised and would apply to all, then there could be no unfair targeting or isolated anomalies thrown up by one guy on a lake somewhere and God forbid it could be transparent, then there could be no accusations.

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Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986

the problem comes when the scope drifts- as per personal handicap variables littered throughout this thread.  But I do agree, the less tweaks the more successful an alternative handicap system might be.  

I guess both systems could be run parallel to assess pros and cons in a sandbox environment.... however, I bet in the majority of clubs the series results would be largely unaffected and it will be the same folks who are largely disaffected given that not much has seemingly changed!!!    

yes it can, the soft squishy thing that creates that algorithm can be protectionist and capable of human error and subject to (accusations of) corruption.

Exactly. Computers are no silver bullets!

OK, I'm suckered in.

What makes dinghies go is too complex, too many variables. Here's an example. 

When i was a kid, the jib sheeting position was moved from the gunwhale to the outer edge of the thwart. Making that change, plus sails cut to suit meant you had to be a total muppet to get beaten my an unconverted boat. The difference in performance on such a simple change was staggering.

So does that simple, seemingly irrelevant change lead to an update in this miraculous rating system handicap or not? If so, how exactly. If not, I call foul already.

In my youth I raced Larks, but the latest boats, although measuring the same in every way, I'll bet are far faster; being built better, stiffer and with adjustable, fully rakable rigs. But under grumphs new wonder system, it would still rate the same against an Ent (that has not changed at all) or Laser (again now faster than 20 years ago, thanks to XD packs, but that at least was a rule change)

Different boats polars mean they under or over perform compared to others in different windspeeds and sea conditions. Try a Contender on a narrow river against an Ent. Then again in a F5 in Weymouth Bay. One number does not, cannot, fit both sets of circumstances. But at least the current system is based on where the majority of boats are actually handicap raced. A rating system falls at that too.

And what TT has said.

You are talking about potential rather than the average skill of sailor in a particular class.

Somehow the Supernova has progressively got slower over that past few years despite shedding some 15-20kg in hull weight (and being built in epoxy which should help make it stiffer). The only other variable is the nut on the tiller.

I am not bashing the Supernova it is just an example I am aware of as our sailing sec is always banging on about the D-Zero number being 'wrong' and shuts up when i ask him why his boat seems to be getting slower despite improvements.....