fully battened sails
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12740
Printed Date: 05 Jul 25 at 6:57pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: fully battened sails
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Subject: fully battened sails
Date Posted: 10 May 17 at 8:48pm
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How much difference would there be in the cut of a full battened sail compared to an identical sail cut for, say, a single full length batten at the top and short battens in the body of the sail? I'm asking because I have a Spice and the fb mainsail can be a handful in a blow, the ability to feather the sail with short battens might make things a bit more forgiving. So could I fit short battens (with a suitable modification to the sail) to my existing mainsail? Not for racing, just to make blasting more comfortable. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 May 17 at 9:04pm
| Perhaps a better question might be is their a smaller sail that will fit without modification. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 10 May 17 at 9:51pm
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Sounds a logical line of thought to me. Power isn't always the sole problem, control and handling also come into the equation. Anecdotally the partial batten sail transformed the manners of the Blaze.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 May 17 at 10:00pm
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Good point, I have had the Spice over 9 years, I had an L2k mainsail (IIRC one full batten and the rest short), nice sail but the problem is the luff length is a lot shorter than the standard sail so you don't get much control over the rig. The standard Blaze rig is a 10.4m soft sail and there is a smaller, 8.8m sail that fits the same rig (same luff, shorter foot and less leach) which responds pretty much the same as the full sail. Soft sails are inherently more forgiving than fully battened so make the boat easier to sail but they are, I assume, cut differently so just modifying a fb sail to short battens won't give the best result. My question is will it work well enough (for blasting not racing) in that control is improved? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 10 May 17 at 10:12pm
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Are soft sails more forgiving? I tend to think that sails with very flexy full battens are the most forgiving since they flog less than a soft sail but don't "snap" back and forward like sails with highly-stressed and stiffer full battens. Of the stuff I sail, which includes highly stressed full-batten sails (Raceboard, Formula 18 cat, short boards) all the way through to the Laser I'd say the two with lightly-stressed lightweight full head battens (Windsurfer One Design, Tasar) are the most controllable. What happens if you put a lighter/flexier batten in the current sail?
------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 May 17 at 10:17pm
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Just to add, that last was in answer to 423zero and crossed with DD's answer but I was also thinking of the Blaze rig. I'm also thinking of buying a Supernova to race at home midweek and they have a fb mainsail but with a smaller partially battened option, presumably cut to make the best of the short battens and, the compromised mast bend characteristics. Some say it is not a particularly happy compromise...... I have sailed and raced windsurfers for 30 years ( before which I raced dinghies). Windsurfers change the mast length at the foot (like RS 300/600 and Laser) or use a different mast so always had the mast bend suited to the sail. using a sail that is cut to match a certain mast on a longer one is always a compromise and changes gust response (exactly what you are trying to preserve in a high wind sail). ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 May 17 at 11:11pm
That had also crossed my mind, I too sail(ed) windsurfers of various types with sails from 4.1m to 9m with different configurations (I go back to early Div One soft sails and no-batten storm sails). I was thinking of changing the battens in the Supernova sail (I haven't bought one but am considering it) for full length tapered battens, very soft at the luff to achieve that effect. My Demon VG5 Raceboard sail is much improved in a real blow by a very stiff carbon tube added to the standard flexy top batten 'cos it flattens the head panel and helps it twist off in the gusts. So I maybe think a stiff top batten or two (like the Blaze) helps with twist and gust response. It's the middle of the sail that gives problems with the power coming on with a bang and no option to feather the sail in the gusts. Spice is pretty horrible when overpowered despite pretty soft battens as the sail just inverts and is totally uncontrollable rather than luffing at the front but retaining some control over the aft third of the sail. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 7:42am
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Are the battens held at the leech? If so, you could probably bodge in 3 short battens temporarily in the lower part of the sail as an experiment without altering anything. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 8:48am
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Yes, I'd thought of that. I may give it a try. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 10:27am
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If the main is back winding it sounds as if the mains being eased too much while the jib is still pinned in I presume also this only happens upwind?
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 10:43am
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Lots of cunningham, tighten outhaul, bend mast, open leech, move jib cars back, rake centreboard back, sail flat ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 12:05pm
Sounds like not enough downhaul to me... |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 12:52pm
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It happens on a reach too when well overpowered. Will try more cunningham and outhaul to flatten and open the leech. I usually crank the cunningham on hard when it's windy already and I'm not too worried about performance, I don't race the Spice seriously. A better sailor would, presumably, just muscle the boat and go for it but I'm a little bit cautious with the Spice  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 12:59pm
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Fully battens sails can be a handful in a blow, especially when tacking and gybing as when they pop the power comes on very quickly. this was one of the reasons the Blaze went for a semi soft setup as they are more forgiving to mere mortals. If you are having issues on a reach it does sound a bit more like rig setup to me. What you would need to do to get around that is a mystery as I am no expert on fully battened sails. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 1:08pm
As a long time Raceboard sailor and racer I'm well used to fully battened sails, and my Demon VG5 was a handful in a blow. Not mastered the Spice yet (and probably never will) but it's still fun trying  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 2:17pm
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White sail reaching, or Assy reaching? Used to sail a Howlett 14 which I guess has some semblance to a Spice, white sail reaching was never that comfortable, fully battened or soft. Assymetric reaching is all about balance, dumping enough kicker and keeping the spinnaker luff just curling. I really don't buy into the idea of a soft sail making things easier, we were in 14s when they went fully battened, and the only time soft sails were better was in the very light stuff, but you could try it in the way you describe and see how you get on, or put some soft contract battens in the sail. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 2:32pm
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Sounds like the mast is too straight or the jib needs to be eased a little more? Or worrying too much about a bit of bubbling around the main luff that doesn't really matter? how much draft is in the main and how far back is it? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 3:12pm
No it's not just a bit of bubbling around the luff, I'm talking about 2/3rds of the sail inverting. White sail reaching too, if I can get the kite up it isn't windy enough for it to be a problem. I guess I'm talking 20-25 knots plus and my skill set in the boat is nowhere near getting the kite up in that much wind. I usually use an ISO main, fairly full but it looks pretty much ok to me. I will try more rake, cunningham and outhaul and all the other advice given. As I said it's probably mostly down to pilot error, I just need to man up and get better at sailing it. Hopefully sailing the Blaze in stronger winds will help me develop some transferrable skills  Thanks everybody.------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 3:58pm
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The trouble with downshifting to a smaller main is that it doesn't bend the mast the same, so doesn't flatten the same. 2 sail reaches, the jib sheets are always too far inboard unless you have barber haulers like some Merlins. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 4:49pm
Yup agreed, the Blaze Fire sail has the same length luff as the full sized Blaze sail. The Supernova small sail has a shorter luff but the difference in area is much greater than between the Blaze and Fire). I've read that the 'nova small sail is not a particularly happy match (though I have yet to sail a 'nova with either sail). I have both Blaze and Fire sails anbd the Fire is excellent.
Yes that makes sense.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 6:07pm
Or fit a dangly pole for the jib like the Nation 12 class uses. It's simple, very easy to use and pretty effective at keeping the leach and foot properly tensioned. A freed jib on a reach becomes a horrid shape and can hook causing back winding of the mainsail. By hooking, I mean the camber increases nearer the top. The camber should be the same or reduce from bottom to top. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 6:28pm
I'm only white sail reaching when it's my equivalent of survival conditions, no time for the niceties dangly pole not class legal anyway.......------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 6:44pm
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Reading your problem again. I'm now not so sure a soft sail will make that much difference. I thought you were talking general handling, not specifically two sail reaching. Now, this is not meant to sound like big talk from a hardcore keyboard expert. However it could be that you're always going to have trouble in big wind with that weird reaching zone with two sails. I know I have kittens on the Contender and way back when I had a Buzz the balance was much easier to manage with the kite up and main sheeted in. I have friends with 49er and they reckon it's complete 'mare to reach two sail.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 8:02pm
| If you're sailing a Spoce singlehanded in 20kts, you will be massively over powered. It's no wonder the main is flogging! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 8:05pm
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You're probably right, I've sailed the Spice for a few years now but not done any proper racing and I don't have a regular crew so have never really set about learning to sail it properly. Now I have the Blaze I'm sailing much more often and hopefully will up my game. The Spice main is a pain in a blow upwind as well, it doesn't luff progressively like a soft sail but reaches a certain point and then inverts. I don't know is a soft sail would be more manageable, maybe not, hence my question here. But what prompted the original question was that I think I'll be buying a Supernova for sailing inland and wondered if GRF's suggestion (in another thread) of a soft sail would make that less challenging to sail in strong/gusty winds? I was just relating it to what I know and it worked for the Blaze after all.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 May 17 at 8:09pm
 Yeah, too right, and no I don't sail it solo in 20 knots........------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 12 May 17 at 9:13am
Looks like you are whole class! You can dictate your own rules ;) ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 May 17 at 9:57am
Don't think I haven't considered it, if there are any other Spice sailors out there we could form a Class Association and make up whatever rules we like 
Oh and, yes @DoDifferent it is a general handling issue rather than being specific to a certain point of sailing. I probably just need to grow some and just get on with it ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 May 17 at 10:03am
| Have you thought about a taller sail and reduce top make a big head sail,good gust response. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 May 17 at 10:35am
These are my two EPS sails the original and the soft copy which performs much better for me, it's quicker through tacks, less likely to go into irons although it did last night when I forgot to dump the kicker after a failed gybe.It seems more tuneable shape wise as well although I felt he'd built to much fullness in the leading edge which only pulls out with lots of kicker induced mast bend.
  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 12 May 17 at 11:37am
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Looks quite nice ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 May 17 at 11:39am
That's how the Blaze Fire is designed, works beautifully. My ISO main (same size near as dammit to the Spice) is a square head and little roach. It seems to behave better than the Spice main. I only use the Spice main on the occasional 'proper' race to avoid handicap issues should I ever sail fast enough to be in the chocolates (highly unlikely TBH) as they are no longer available and I want to keep it in decent condition. I don't suppose anybody would complain but you never know. I suggested some changes to the Spice Class Rules to allow ISO sails to be used and be in class but there is no active CA. Stuart at Vantage Sailing does still sell spares and lists the ISO main as suitable for the Spice (which is is). I don't know if he is the rights holder for Spice though. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12 May 17 at 11:44am
| Eps sail looks nice, but how do you get in irons from a gybe?? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 May 17 at 12:03pm
Yes, was going to say how nice GRF's soft sail looks but got call away from the keyboard. T's a lovely thing  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 May 17 at 2:38pm
First rig a new sheeting system and route the rope the wrong way through one of those one way pully blocks then, as usual ,forget to dump the kicker on a windy reach, then when your mate in a Laser in front decides to chicken gybe (wear round I believe is the correct term) call him a pussy, try to sheet in, fail, bang through anyway and over I go as the sheet fails to give enough thanks to the block. Jump on the mast get legover, dry capsize, recover, bearing in mind a certain panic since it had been very warm and relatively windless when we set out and a brisk cold wind from the East swept in making my choice of thin rash vest and shorts a bit careless bordering on downright stupid, then having recovered, struggle to bear away, try several times before realising the kicker thing is still on full... In other words my normal procedure when the wind puffs above my pecieved ability level and enters reality check. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 May 17 at 4:11pm
Love it Graeme, sound like exactly the kind of thing I would do  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 13 May 17 at 9:03am
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The supernova main; of which you have concerns about due to being fully battened is ugly as a junk boat but is very manageable in breeze, it does not suffer from some of the issues associated with the original blaze rig. I feel however that it's performance would be greatly improved with a switch to a semi soft set up. The boat simply isnt as fast as you'd expect upwind, it gains its positions on the reaches where it performs beautifully . That said it is very well mannered and in no way unpredictable in a blow. ------------- |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 May 17 at 12:03am
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That's good to know E.J. I agree it's not a pretty rig by modern standards, it looks low aspect with little roach to promote twist but fairly long in the foot. I wonder if the upwind speed is compromised by what appears to be a fairly short daggerboard? The fact that it can be fully retracted into the case without fouling the boom or kicker confirms what the pictures hint at. Either way they are al the same and I'm not to bad at getting a boat upwind so if it flatters on the reaches I'll be happy. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 14 May 17 at 10:31pm
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If anything the dagger board is too long, most people don't sail upwind with it fully down.Perhap the what you have seen is due to the fact that the hull is very round so you have to brave to fully retract it, plus it's a relatively high boom so fouling has never been a concern. ------------- |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 May 17 at 8:57am
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Interesting, the Spice has a high boom to allow helm and crew to cross the boat on their feet as they're both trapezing but the daggerboard still fouls the kicker (and even the boom) well before it's flush with the hull. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |