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Should members pay to race?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12734
Printed Date: 06 Jul 25 at 12:44am
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Topic: Should members pay to race?
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Should members pay to race?
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 1:07pm
I know some clubs charge extra for members that race, but is there merit in making members pay per series? Not so much from a revenue perspective, but as a form of commitment via registration. Wouldn't work for one off races though.



Replies:
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 1:12pm
No, it's expensive enough to be a member of a club already and I race when I can, it would make no difference to my attendance.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 1:18pm
we used to pay a nominal entry fee towards the safety boats, personally i think it should be part of membership. We pay fees for membership plus boat storage....
we have no race fee now and the entry numbers have not changed.
The discussion in sailing clubs the uk over is how to encourage more people to take part.....stripping hard earned dollars might not be the best stick to use?


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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 1:36pm
No, except on the odd occasion, open meeting, charity race that sort of thing, we are paying to race, why else join a club?

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 1:39pm
Ok,  how about should members who don't race get a discount?

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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 1:42pm
More admin for the volunteers....No thanks


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 1:52pm
It depends on the club, surely.

If a coastal club has the only feasible small boat facility in a small harbour say, and a very large percentage of the membership has never had the slightest interest in racing then some means of allocating the extra expense of racing facilities only to those who want them is probably fair, especially if the basic subs need to be held down.

If on the other hand its an inland club founded purely for racing which doesn't really want to encourage non racers then absolutely not.


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 1:58pm
No, racing is a core activity for most clubs and is one of the few activities that generates boats on the water week on week. Anything that puts more cost/obstacles in the way of that is madness IMHO.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 2:27pm
Okay, if not even a nominal fee how about some form of commitment to a series? It is both a strength and weakness of sailing that you are free to come and go. Cricket, rugby, rowing etc require you to commit specific dates to support your team mates.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 3:49pm
The incentive to race a series is there in the form of a minimum number of races to count and large points allocated to DNC results effectively taking you out of the places if you can't discard them. Which, incidentally means that those who can only race some of the series are racing for the fun of it on the day rather than with hopes of a result).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 3:52pm
The difference there is that it those are team games. If you wanna play, you have to support the team or you wont't get picked next time. How would any committment be enforced? The only method I've seen is thru the minimum number of races to qualify. Even that is a bit weak because a hotshot who has to count a bunch of DNC's won't beat over a series Mr. Steady who turns out every week and finishes - wherever he finishes. However, when I - against all the sooth-sayers and doom-mongers advice - increased the qualification threshold from under 50% to over 50% participation actually increased.


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Nick
D-Zero 316



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

The incentive to race a series is there in the form of a minimum number of races to count and large points allocated to DNC results effectively taking you out of the places if you can't discard them. Which, incidentally means that those who can only race some of the series are racing for the fun of it on the day rather than with hopes of a result).
But this is the point, isn't it?  This incentive clearly doesn't work, people take each race day as a race in isolation, and the series is an irrelevance. I believe series races are poorly attended partly because they have become irrelevant - either they should be scrapped or improved somehow.  If there was a mixture whereby some series you could just rock up, but others you had to commit to (some how, not sure how if the nominal payment is so offensive to so many), I think the different series would grow different identities. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 7:13pm
If the payment was a means to reduce annual subs for those who can only sail at the club occasionally then it might be a goer, I can only sail Wednesday evenings during the season as I'm away my caravan most weekends and usually committed to something else otherwise. 

An additional series fee would mean I would not race the occasional Sunday I'm not away and would only sail the first and last series as I'd miss 5 weeks in the summer. Or I might not rejoin next year as it would be harder to justify a sub plus series fees for, maybe, 20 races. I can enter the winter series (which I can sail most of) for around 1/3rd of the annual sub and not need to join the club.

Mind you the club series at Leigh & Lowton are pretty well attended, 23 boats last Wednesday, similar at the weekends and 50+ for the open winter series' so they do ok.

BTW If you scrapped series' how would you justify an additional 'sailing fee' anyway?


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 7:36pm
I think you are so keen to avoid paying anything, you have not read my post properly.
Btw 23 boats isn't that great for a weds evening is it?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 7:41pm
would be for my club, we haven't got that many boats in total.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 7:55pm
Yikes, how many duties a year do you do?


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 8:37pm
I'd rather pay n play tbh.... I've no interest in paying for the races I can't attend through annual subs, if anything, annual subs just go to highlight how little a sailing club actually features and it's a saving I've decided I can afford to make.

For those Week in week out empty nesters, then fair enough, an annual pass suitably discounted, might well be better option.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by A2Z

I think you are so keen to avoid paying anything, you have not read my post properly.
Btw 23 boats isn't that great for a weds evening is it?

Quite the opposite, I'm happy to pay my subs (and do my two duties a year) so I can sail/race whenever I can. It would be much cheaper to just enter the winter series but I want to support my chosen club and sail when I can. However, there is a point when it becomes uneconomical and a 'per series' charge large enough to make me attend more frequently would certainly change my view on the value of my annual sub.

23 boats on a Wednesday evening seems pretty good to me these days.....


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 9:22pm
A2Z, 2 minimum per year, I average about 12 OOD duties a year, about half of members can't set a course or run a race.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 10:31pm
That's a case for paying a part time RO. When I was Chairman of a windsurfing club we ran the racing from the water, we did gate starts (gate boat sets off from a given mark on port and we all started behind  him) and, with us all sailing RB 7.5 there was no PY required, first past the post was the winner and photo finishes were decided in the bar afterwards. Worked a treat and nobody had to do duties. We even used that method at regional open meetings occasionally when sailing from a waterspouts centre who could not provide an OOD. I realise that will not work at a busy/serious dinghy club (windsurfers are a bit more casual) but it would be possible to run pursuit racing from the shore without anybody giving up their days racing. Fastest boat runs the timed starts and then sets off last, beach starts will work as there are no start line tactics in force unless there are a number of one class, if that's so they start from leeward to windward according to the result of the previous race. 

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 7:53am
I personally dont have an objection to the Pay-n-Play principle - after all, if you belong to a Class Association and race in Open's - it's Pay and Play. It happens in some other sports and appears to work fine. However, not a a "per- Series" as not everyone is interested or has the time to partake in enough races to qualify for a Series, or may just want to race occasionally anyway. A per-race day might be ok, though the admin to monitor and collect would be a significant overhead for any club.

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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 8:24am
I would love to see a workable business model ... if you had a period of extreme weather, either too light or too windy the club's revenue stream would shut off.  In most cases the clue is in the name "yacht club" or "sailing club" ... if you want to enjoy the benefits without sailing that is your choice but don't expect the sailors to subsidise social members.   As has been posted previously, sailing club's are, even the Royal yacht club's offer good value compared with golf clubs.

The best way to get the best value for your sub is to go sailing more often.  

To me the biggest barrier to going sailing is not allocating the time to do it far enough in advance.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 9:47am
My club has a Wednesday night only membership.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 11:28am
Can you get a berth with that? trailing the Blaze up and down for one race on a Wednesday is less than ideal (which is why I'm looking for another boat to leave at L&LSC for my midweek fix).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 11:29am
Originally posted by JimC

My club has a Wednesday night only membership.

that sounds very forward thinking Clap


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 11:35am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Can you get a berth with that? .
Only for the duration of the series, not all year round.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 11:42am
Originally posted by davidyacht


The best way to get the best value for your sub is to go sailing more often.  



stating the obvious somewhat?!?

Most sailing 'clubs' are an utter anachronism to what they are truly competing against - a wider and more easily accessible leisure industry in an increasingly time poor society.... although I guess most clubs are still hunting from the same pool of sailors, hence why one local club put signs up around my old club the weekend of our open day.  It's kind of pathetic really, especially when the whole 'push the boat out' thing was about wide scale cooperation and raising awareness.  (Yep, RYA trying to do something right and professional, only to undermined  ShockedShockedShocked)  

One example- I've been invited to join a ''cycling club"... it meets outside a pub in the village, there are no membership fees and the only rule is that no one sets up a feckin' Facebook group or posts their sh*te to Strava.  (It's a proper grumpy MAMIL club).  It doesn't care for marketing itself- in fact it's invite only, but don't fear dear liberals, no one's been fellated by a dead pig's head yet.  There are other cycling clubs around here- a bit more formal maybe, plus of course the informal cycling groups via Facebook etc.

Mountain Bike trail centres, Windsurfing centres, Snowdomes etc are all pay and play and offer a sustainable business model.  No duties and all run with 'passes' paid for either annually, monthly or on a per use basis... the cost inversely proportional to the number of times you use their facilities.

I really do not see where the volume volunteer resource will come from once the baby boomers running clubs today die out.  I do hope those who have introduced their kids (successfully) to the sport have broad shoulders; because the current SOP for most clubs will be unsustainable without them.




Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 3:13pm
Just to be clear, I wasn't proposing pay per play or per series as either a revenue raising or fee reduction excercise. I was trying to find a method of getting people to commit to a series rather than casually dipping in and out. I appreciate that the easy come easy go way has appeal, but it defeats the whole object of a race series, there may as well just be lots and lots of individual trophy races.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by A2Z

I was trying to find a method of getting people to commit to a series rather than casually dipping in and out.

short of seismic societal reform, maybe a three-day weekend, I can't think for one minute there is anything anyone can propose that will actually have any real impact.

We need to face facts, 'club series' results really don't matter that much to that many people.  If they did, then whatever event, commitment, family tie, work plan, parents evening etc that was that was more pressing than going sailing, would simply have to wait or be re-arranged.  

We certainly wouldn't let something as banal as windguru put us off, if the series was that important; but it's not, so we do and we bank the pass for better conditions in the future.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 3:42pm
You may be right, in which case why do clubs continue to offer series rather than one off races? To an extent it depends on the length and compactness of a series perhaps. For example if the series was the first Sunday morning of the month between may-September, that's only 5 mornings in a year you are being asked to prioritise sailing for - 4 with a discount. Surely it would be better to get 75% of your racing membership out 5 times a year than 20% out on every Sunday?


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 4:04pm
Because modern life does not revolve around prioritizing sailing above other family activities, no matter how much an enthusiast you are. If it does for you, then you are lucky ;-)

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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 4:06pm
I think you need to have the series so you keep the regulars coming.... they then provide the backstay of the fleet, the vital 'critical mass' from which to pool your race officers when folks don't show for duty etc.  The rest of the membership can then dip in and out, knowing there is always a race to be had when time and conditions allow- even if for them, the final series position announced in several months at some club social they don't go to, holds nothing for them.  

The chances of being able to sync your entire membership into 5 races per season is nigh-on impossible.  Club sumer regatta days, Barts Bash, the 'freeze your nuts off' winter race, maybe a handicap open garnering a 'local contingent' who don't normally travel is about as much forward planing you can really expect from those with larger priorities in their life.   


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

 

We need to face facts, 'club series' results really don't matter that much to that many people.  If they did, then whatever event, commitment, family tie, work plan, parents evening etc that was that was more pressing than going sailing, would simply have to wait or be re-arranged.  


Somehow I manage to do ring fence Saturday afternoons to go racing, but this maybe because I am old and kids have left home.

Our club has one race on a Saturday afternoon which typically lasts a couple of hours ... probably not your typical model, but it does mean that our members don't pick and choose whether to do an AM or PM series.  Saturday afternoon seems to be quite low impact leaving Sunday free for dog walks, the lawn and roast dinners LOL
 




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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 5:21pm
If you want to charge people to race, fine, but don't ask them to pay a membership fee to the club.  If I've already paid a membership, I've paid to go sailing, so asking me to pay twice seems rather ridiculous. 
Or don't call it a "sailing" club.  Call it a social members club that can also offer sailing as an addition.  Certainly don't call it a sailing club then ask for sailors to subsidise non-sailors. 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 5:47pm
I wasn't advocating that Doug, but Royal Windermere for one does charge racers a higher annual sub that cruisers (who are, of course, still sailors not social members). Racing does cost the club more than cruising in terms of prizes, duties, etc etc, so arguably it is only fair to charge them more...  

My initial thinking was that charging 5p for a carrier bag is negligible to everyone, but it has still forced a massive reduction in carrier bag waste. Charging 5p to enter a series surely isn't unaffordable to even the tightest dinghy sailor, but might psychologically commit people, or at least force a conscious decision one way or another.  It seems, however, that many want to have their cake and eat it.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 6:11pm
A2Z, the current club I'm a member at I used to race at a lot and so obviously I felt my membership fee was fantastic value, and it was.  Now days I live about 150 miles away from that club but am still a member.  I haven't sailed there at all this year, but that's entirely me not making the most of the membership.  I wouldn't want the people racing there each weekend to be charged more, if the club needed money, I'm more than happy for them to put the membership fees up and that's just too bad for me for not making the most of it.  So I still don't buy the arguement that holding racing costs more and therefore those racers should be asked to pay more. 
To that end, I also think training should be free (of course it's not free, it's covered by general membership fees and bar/galley takings)
As for racing numbers I don't think financial penalties are a positive way to encourage turnout.  Even a nominal fee.  The people who are turning out and are already committing, it's a tough ask to say "hey guys, we wish more people were like you always turning up, so we're going to charge you extra".  The people turning up for racing are typically also buying lunch and buying drinks at the bar after racing. 

If you want to encourage turnout, you have to tackle the issue of why people aren't willing to put time in. 
Why are complete ametuers taking up triathlon willing to put in 14 hours a week training, but ameteur sailers won't put in 2-3 on a sunday?
Road bike racing is booming, and people are happily putting in at least 10hrs training a week to compete but club racing is slowly dwindling? 
I don't buy the "I don't have time" or the "I don't have the money" arguement because it just doesn't stack up against tri and road bike racing.  People can drop £5000 on a bike but sailing is too expensive?  Mum's and dads with kids and jobs can still somehow find ways of putting in a lot of training hours and travel off to racing, but for club sailing it's too hard??

Whether it's the atmostphere of sailing clubs, or whether people just don't see the prestige in doing well and so it's sits at the lowest of their priorites, i don't know.  But the typical arguements simply don't stack up when you compare them to sports that are currently doing rather well in participant take up. 


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by davidyacht


Originally posted by turnturtle

 
We need to face facts, 'club series' results really don't matter that much to that many people.  If they did, then whatever event, commitment, family tie, work plan, parents evening etc that was that was more pressing than going sailing, would simply have to wait or be re-arranged.  

Somehow I manage to do ring fence Saturday afternoons to go racing, but this maybe because I am old and kids have left home.
Our club has one race on a Saturday afternoon which typically lasts a couple of hours ... probably not your typical model, but it does mean that our members don't pick and choose whether to do an AM or PM series.  Saturday afternoon seems to be quite low impact leaving Sunday free for dog walks, the lawn and roast dinners LOL 


Sounds Good! See you in 20 years!


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 7:36pm
Sailing is too difficult, that's what I hear from people who do courses and drop out, nothing to do with time or money, pay a couple of hundred quid for a course and you still can't sail and still keep getting stuck in irons.


Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 9:31pm
Isn't there an irony that some folk on here can spend more time discussing why they can't go sailing and other stuff than actually particpating in the sport they purport to love because they say that life gets in the way.

Perhaps we should trade some online time for time on the water? Just saying.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Sailing is too difficult, that's what I hear from people who do courses and drop out, nothing to do with time or money, pay a couple of hundred quid for a course and you still can't sail and still keep getting stuck in irons.


I can believe that.  I think the only way to deal with that is to advertise the sport in some way that depicts the end result as something worth attaining.  I don't claim to know how you would go about that, but I would suggest that that would be a perfect mission for the RYA to engage in. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 10:01pm
This is were racing comes into its own, new sailors have to try to follow the course, make decisions, only way to master a very technical sport.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 10:05pm
The plastic bag thing... They have to pay 5p therefore stop doing it. So, we charge for races and...?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 10:06pm
During my three year stint as Commodore, I tried to instil the essence of what a club is and how it comes together. It is a group of like minded individuals in this instance sailors who club together for their common good, somewhere to store and launch their boats, somewhere to change and relax afterwards etc etc in other words the sum of its members. Very often 'committees' populated by folk who may not have had managerial experience or held sway over others can tend to forget all this and attempt to enforce edicts from on high, indeed since I left, the Hythe committee is once more showing signs of that again. Clubbing together to decide to make life more difficult or expensive is not the essence of what we're about surely.
Folk have enough regimentation in their work life, they don't need it in their leisure time so 'rules' and regs, need to be less not more, our lot have once more taken the view of the nearby complainants that move into the area then immediately start to complain about us, instead of politely reminding them of that and then telling them to foxtrot oscar. A club is a group that should be bound together for its mutual interest and not be divisive in its admonishments. There endeth the sermon.


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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 May 17 at 10:52pm
The inverse of the plastic bag analogy, members who do duty get a rates reduction, pay members who race.


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 7:32am
iGRF @ 10.06.

YES YES and YES.  Sailing Clubs.

I have those sentiments and very nearly the same words in response to Committee emails at least once a year. 


HandshakeBeer 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 9:12am
Rugby is also played by clubs run by volunteers, but the fly half can't look about the window and decide it's a bit too rainy/windy/cold to turn up.  Whilst dinghy racing is not a team sport, it does still need a quorum of people to make it worthwhile. 

Maybe a better idea is to reduce the number of racing days - if races were only scheduled on alternate Sunday mornings there would only be a max of 26 races a year, rather than the 100+ that currently dilutes attendance. 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 9:38am
Originally posted by A2Z

Maybe a better idea is to reduce the number of racing days

That only works if people have a specific limitation on the number of days they can sail, but no restriction at all on which days they are. Seems unlikely.


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 9:50am
Reducing days of racing is a very tricky one to know the outcome of.

If everyone had an open calendar and the weather was always perfect, yes it would concentrate participation. However, people have commitments and weather is unreliable, reducing days could just as likely reduce number of available sailing days.

Wrestling with this all the time.  


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 10:12am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by A2Z

Maybe a better idea is to reduce the number of racing days

That only works if people have a specific limitation on the number of days they can sail, but no restriction at all on which days they are. Seems unlikely.
I'm not sure, I think there are plenty of people for whom weekly attendance is not an option, not for any specific clash but because it is self centred to spend all your free time away from your family.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 10:30am
I can't see how a volunteer run club can cater for these people, we have enough problems with members who never turn up when they have duties, they never phone sailing secretary to say they will not turn up, turn up the following week, no explanation.


Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 11:06am
Originally posted by 423zero

Sailing is too difficult, that's what I hear from people who do courses and drop out, nothing to do with time or money, pay a couple of hundred quid for a course and you still can't sail and still keep getting stuck in irons.

and how often is that becasue the  training  and/or the craft are not up to scratch ... 

I really do wonder how some DI s passed level 5  nevermind got it endorsed  for  pre-entry 


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 11:12am
I guess that every club is different, so the same solutions will not work in every situation, but it would seem that club's need to establish formats to suit their members, and perhaps established formats don't work for changing demographics.

When I sailed on a pond, we had two or three races a day with a lunch break in between morning and afternoon races, with the majority doing at least two of the races, but if you look at the results data for some club's there are clear "morning" groups and "afternoon" groups.  

Would you be better having shorter series but with two back to back races for today's time poor family persons?

And sorry to rake up this old chestnut, but back in the day, the trip to our sailing club was a family day out ... with youngsters racing Cadets whilst dad and mum sailed Merlins or 12's ... now the youngsters go squad training and mum and dad do the driving; so you could hit both nails on the head.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 11:24am
Zippy RN, 
My club uses Toppers, Topper Topaz and Laser Bahia, GP 14, etc, all fairly new, lightly used standard boats, we use our own SI and DI's, but more often than not we employ the services of a professional instructor, membership take up from RYA level 1&2 abysmal, more members from "Push the boat out".
would be interesting to find out figures for RYA training, what percentage continue sailing, join a club etc.


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 12:41pm
its all about getting the sailors to communicate with each other, within and outside of their fleets.

we use whats app to chat as group within our musto fleet at one club, we dont race all that often but we train together when we can and keep the chat alive between times.  

on top of that we have a skiff facebook group for the other club which helps organise training and racing, then we have an entire river skiff group that aims to bring club fleets together for open events and training on the river as a whole.

we've grown a small fleet of RS800's and half a dozen RS600's in a year with other odds and sods all sailing more often and more importantly together.  We dont always race but we can all do with more training time anyway!

i know our our novice sailors at bsc started up only a few short years ago, use the club forum to chat and organise, and now have the largest and most consistent fleet and the best cakes too, they keep it sociable and race / train / cruise in their own fleet and join in with the old school racing too.  its been great to watch and a really good example to follow for getting participation up.

there is scope to i believe to also add buy out options for duties and or perhaps reductions for doing extra duties to membership which may encourage, but start with talking to the fleet not charging them to sail.


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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Would you be better having shorter series but with two back to back races for today's time poor family persons?
And sorry to rake up this old chestnut, but back in the day, the trip to our sailing club was a family day out ... with youngsters racing Cadets whilst dad and mum sailed Merlins or 12's ... now the youngsters go squad training and mum and dad do the driving; so you could hit both nails on the head.


Easy to blame squads etc, but I guess that was all back in the day when 'the man of the house' got to choose where family leisure time would be spent.   The kids would be pushed afloat crying and cold- 'nothing a woolly jumper couldn't put right' and if 'er indoors' didn't like getting wet, well then she could jolly well pull her weight on Galley Duty.

My Mrs thinks sailing clubs, in general, are the pits for non-sailors.... especially the inland ones. I can relate as I find stables on a par, except I'd probably say the old man damp kit probably smells worse than freshly shovelled horse sh*t.


Posted By: Poole Pirate
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 4:58pm
Maybe a way of looking at it is that the total cost to belong and race is what it is and feel if it gives me lots of options to sail and belong then I happy with my choice
We have non sailing members who do not pay for my racing and I think should not either. They have helped the club get to what it is today in many ways and now they still feel like being members to stay a part of the club and also help to run it.
We also have some social members as we have something for them to enjoy, a nice view and a great club house with great food and drink.
We need these people, they help to pay for the cost of running the club and in some cases have dug deep to help to continue to improve the club for me as well.
I look at them and wonder what they get from it but I thank them anyway.
I will stay a member as long as i can afford to but when i cant I leave. I feel part of my club, time and money will tell how long for!
As for turn outs I feel that the one thing that helps is the availability of a crew or the option to sail a single handed boat. So many people want to helm so crews are hard to come by. 
We have class racing only, so it can be hard to prize young people away from the fun or fast boats, Who do come and sail are the older members in the faster keel boat  F/F is ours. Ex dinghy sailors who want something a bit steady but has great racing, this fleet is growing each year.
We have so much choice in this world and commitments also, you just have to find what you can to enjoy and the time you to do it and hope you find more people to enjoy it with you. 


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by davidyacht

Would you be better having shorter series but with two back to back races for today's time poor family persons?
And sorry to rake up this old chestnut, but back in the day, the trip to our sailing club was a family day out ... with youngsters racing Cadets whilst dad and mum sailed Merlins or 12's ... now the youngsters go squad training and mum and dad do the driving; so you could hit both nails on the head.


Easy to blame squads etc, but I guess that was all back in the day when 'the man of the house' got to choose where family leisure time would be spent.   The kids would be pushed afloat crying and cold- 'nothing a woolly jumper couldn't put right' and if 'er indoors' didn't like getting wet, well then she could jolly well pull her weight on Galley Duty.

My Mrs thinks sailing clubs, in general, are the pits for non-sailors.... especially the inland ones. I can relate as I find stables on a par, except I'd probably say the old man damp kit probably smells worse than freshly shovelled horse sh*t.

In our case a fair number of those Cadets are still sailing today ... 40 or so years on, so it couldn't have been such a bad experience.

I take what you say about mum in the galley, and I think we moved on from there and in any case a fair number of mums sailed too.  BUT I really think that the family aspect is really important for clubs to embrace.  I joined one of what is perceived by some to be one of the finest dinghy sailing clubs in the country 25 years ago, lasted a couple of years before my wife got hacked off because the children were not allowed on the lawn.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 10:35pm
If we had to pay a relatively small amount per race that paid for a designated club RO (or two|) I certainly wouldn't have a problem. Somebody perhaps retired but experienced in these things. Back to my kebab...


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 May 17 at 11:56pm
local university students, supplement their loans with fee from sailing club, train them to do safety or ood.


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 07 May 17 at 7:37am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Mountain Bike trail centres, Windsurfing centres, Snowdomes etc are all pay and play and offer a sustainable business model


Sustainable business model. Is that so?

My local MTB venue - closed down.

The vast majority of windsurfing centres that existed at one time - closed down.

There are only a handful of Snowdomes across the UK, creating a business case for more is hugely problematical and meanwhile, dry slopes everywhere are poorly maintained,  some have closed down and more will.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 May 17 at 8:19am
Coastal path walking, trips to the woods, camping, National trust visits, all doing well? Easy access, decentish kit cheap, very good kit somewhat expensive, but low hundreds, not thousands, no special training needed, no need for commitment.

It is the rise in Triathlon that really interests me, though. Huge fitness commitment, kit not cheap, 3 sports to get good at. How come so many are playing? Is it an interesting replacement for the gym? Is there because for the most part, it is about personal achievement, finishing, maybe a PB, not about winning outright? Sailing is actually difficult to measure in that way. Nearest we get are races like the Birkett, 3 Rivers, round Sheppey etc, which are difficult to replicate at small clubs, and almost impossible for a beginner to take part in.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 May 17 at 8:35am
What about a triathlon type event with sailing instead of swimming.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 07 May 17 at 11:06am
Originally posted by blueboy


Originally posted by turnturtle

Mountain Bike trail centres, Windsurfing centres, Snowdomes etc are all pay and play and offer a sustainable business model
Sustainable business model. Is that so?My local MTB venue - closed down.The vast majority of windsurfing centres that existed at one time - closed down.There are only a handful of Snowdomes across the UK, creating a business case for more is hugely problematical and meanwhile, dry slopes everywhere are poorly maintained,  some have closed down and more will.


Windsurfing centres - I was referring to more the holiday rental places, but you are right in the U.K. A lot have closed as the sport made itself far too elitist, and frankly went up a high performance cul-de-sac UK wind stats will never deliver. THe OTC in Weymouth still does OK though, and West Wittering.

Dry slopes - they've been replaced by domes, there's only one I. The UK that even uses if he latest dry slope technology, not that I'd bother with it personally. Domes - two new ones just got planning coneset- Cribbs Causeway in Bristol and another one in the NE- Middlesbrough I think. Cas, Hemel and Chill Factore in Manchester are all relatively new - < 10 years old - and going strong with a far broader demographic in attendance than sailing clubs.

MTB centres - you could right, but the buzz I heard was that the good ones are well over subscribed and around here, organised rides (open meeting equivalents) require very early booking to avoid disappointment


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 May 17 at 11:43am
Aquathon, 
Run round lake,
Swim out to tethered boats,
Sail a set distance.
Perhaps make it a day event for charity.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 May 17 at 5:55pm
We've been doing a running/sailing biathlon with the Juniors here for years, as a relay event.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 May 17 at 8:57pm
I was thinking something a bit more extreme, offer a training programme including sailing obviously (hoping some get the bug), charge a serious fee cut out the time wasters.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 May 17 at 7:42am
Empty club houses mid week ought to run Yoga sessions... then roll out on to water for SUP Yoga in the spring, summer and autumn


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 May 17 at 9:50am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Empty club houses mid week ought to run Yoga sessions... then roll out on to water for SUP Yoga in the spring, summer and autumn
I'm beginning to think y'all should take us at Hythe as a role model, we do all this, Keep Fit, Yoga and even an Art Class mid week, our club now serves as an HQ for the newly formed Hythe Cycling Club we did a sort of corporate deal for them all as one fixed fee and benefit from their use of the Galley regardless of wether we sail or pussy out due to weather (Nothing worse than signing up for Galley duty and nobody goes out) Monday is Open water swimming nightm Tuesday WIndsurf and SUP, Wednesday is some sort of training night either cycles or us, Thursday is Sail Racing and only Friday doesn't have much going on, which you would have thought would.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 May 17 at 12:32pm
Yoga is growing in the UK, it hooks in a target demographic (women) and can be used to ease folks out on to the water on inflatable paddle boards once the weather is more clement - these can then be used for fun and games when the wind doesn't play ball for Sunday racing..... it would be an interesting investment for a club to make.  

Of course, it would take the thought process that SUP is welcome and part of the wider watersports community that really need to come together.  


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 08 May 17 at 12:47pm
That thought process isn't always correct. I've been in a couple of sailing clubs that moved out from their core pursuit and ended up losing more than they gained. 

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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 17 at 1:29pm
I would be concerned at sailing members being over thrown from control of decision making, mainly affecting clubs that don't own building,other groups could band together and approach landlord.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 May 17 at 1:33pm
Fair points guys ....


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 May 17 at 4:50pm
There is a case, when a club diversifies, for wiring it into the constitution that only sailing members can vote at the AGM and the committee be composed of only sailing members. Many clubs already do this.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 08 May 17 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

There is a case, when a club diversifies, for wiring it into the constitution that only sailing members can vote at the AGM and the committee be composed of only sailing members. Many clubs already do this.

We allow all full members to vote be they Sailing, Honorary or Social.

As we are a pure sailing club though by default most of the committees are made up of sailors or ex-sailors. We share the lake with a fishing club but are currently in the process of buying the freehold which will give us control of the fishing rights as we will own a 3ft strip of the shore.

How that will work with the fishing club as a 'sitting tenant' remains to be seen.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 17 at 5:01pm
They would still need to liase with someone,they have a point to make and it gets put to committee, wet stuff left hanging in changing rooms, starts there.



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