Is the F In Fun going to be lacking in the future?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12724
Printed Date: 06 Jul 25 at 7:31pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Is the F In Fun going to be lacking in the future?
Posted By: davidyacht
Subject: Is the F In Fun going to be lacking in the future?
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 1:20pm
Dougal's article makes interesting reading and hits quite a few mails on the head. Having just been present at a 51 Merlin Silver Tiller Open at Salcombe, it seems to me that most of the youngsters sticking with dinghy sailing are 2nd and 3rd generations of families who were at the forefront of our sport in the 70's and 80's. Maybe they have seen the fun that can be had.
The big problem as I see it is that the huge numbers participating in Youth Sailing have no experience of the fun that can be had ... maybe as a consequence of spending their formative years in singlehanders, and having lettle exposure to beer (and other vices) in class cultures that discourage youthful indiscretion.
Maybe the big initiative should be to grab those being spat out of Youth Sailing and get them into the mainstream of dinghy racing?
------------- Happily living in the past
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Replies:
Posted By: pompeysailor
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 2:09pm
I was lucky that I was given the option at 16 of 420 or Fireball - Chose Fireball and had an absolute blast with the fleet on and off the water! Also feel I learn't a lot more racing against the likes of Pinnell, Hall, DJ, Horey, Rush etc. Also learn't essential life skills like: Madras Eating, How many people can fit in a volvo to drive to town, sleeping in boats, never to have 2 beers in your hand, yard of ale drinking etc etc.
------------- Formerly - OK 2145 Phantom 1437, Blaze 819, Fireball 14668, Mirror 54145
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Posted By: SUGmeister
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 2:11pm
I think you've got to decide which is more fun. the thrill of close competitive racing or the thrill of the actual sailing experience.
Back in the 70s sailing slow unexciting Enterprises in the Thames Valley Circuit the thrill of the racing was just great, every few weeks open meetings with 30/40/50 entries was just immense fun.
Would I swap that for the occasional sail in a foiling moth? No.
------------- Simon SUGmeister
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 2:17pm
Yup, good example of where parents can both protect their kids (from the evils of chew-'em-up, spit-'em-out zone squads and school-classroom-esk training) and show them where the craic lies (which certainly ain't straight home after the race and early to bed in a futile 15 year medal campaign)
We've probably all got a better attitude to install about winning than the no-medal-hope-don't-bother approach too.
So AFAIAC, sooner sailing is out of the Olympics the better
By the time they are spat out of YS David, the damage is usually done and it's too late. Their induction message should that sailing is a sport for life, has many facets of which medals are a statistical irrelevance. Not everyone who has a houseplant on their windowsill is expected to pursue a Chelsea Flower Show Gold Medal, but sailing is pretty much the opposite (because sailing medals are the only thing that gets measured.
The RYA's key-performance-indicator for Youth Sailing should be the percentage of people entering the system that are still sailing 10, 20 and 30 years later (and compare to those who have avoided the system). That would show the medals are not worth the collateral damage.
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 2:30pm
Not point I am a bit passionate about this.
I cannot believe I am saying this, but I agree with iGRF. The RYA does not serve sailing clubs interests (for reasons above). If they won't change, clubs and Class Associations should break away and form our own body and compete to protect the future of clubs, classes and small boat sailing.
Otherwise, when our generation is gone, sailing will be decimated, 9 out of 10 clubs will die. No one for club committees/management, no race officers or safety boat drivers, no trainers for beginner courses. Membership income will also be more than halved and the financials will no longer stack up either.
However, there will be a business opportunity for someone, they'd be paid to ship no longer wanted dinghies somewhere more sailing-enlightened
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 3:24pm
Along the same lines; when we were younger and Billy the Funnel was enjoying his heyday, people that we regarded as old, were merely middle aged ... our aging demographic means that there is an increasing chasm between the entry into adult sailing and the baby boomers hanging on at the other end of the system.
Most of us were enthused at club level, at the Aldenhams and Frenshams ... probably got mentored by the club elders (who were actually younger than we are now), which encouraged us to get involved with the adult classes ... with added confidence and the encouragement of beer and women we joined the open and national circuit which has led to a lifetime of social activity and sport.
I dont see many treading that pathway now, probably due to youth racing being taken away from the clubs, and youth training at club level having a disconect with the racing scene.
I agree that the RYA is myopic, but the problem is mainly down to Sport England, and how it funds. I had the privilege to attend a talk by Hannah Mills last week, and I thought it quite sad that she did not seem to attach as miuch importance to being a World Champion compared to an Olympic Champion, when to the purist winning a World Championship is a mighty fine acheivement ... much the same applies to Olympic Cycling where by all accounts all of the Olympic funded bikes are broken, and our team have to use out of date kit.
Picking up on a previous thread, if the RYA showed a greater commitment to supporting the complete pyramid structure of dinghy racing I would be far more willing to take my hand out of my pocket.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 3:47pm
"but the problem is mainly down to Sport England, and how it funds" - I don't mind them throwing money at Team GBR, but the Youth Squads are akin to the Pied Piper, malevolently taking away our kids, and that should be resisted at every turn. I don't care how much someone offers to pay me, I am not going to shoot myself in the foot. Our sport's management should apply the same principle or we should replace them.
I do understand Hannah's viewpoint though. The Olympics are on the telly (badly, but whatever) and a big fuss is made of medal winners on TV and the press (even sailing). Winning a worlds should be harder, in that there are no one-entry-per-nation limits, but if you win one and come home, most other sailors won't know, never mind the general public. As we know, Hannah's experienced both so is in a good position to judge.
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 3:49pm
It's easy to look at today's kids and say 'pah, look they don't know how to party like we did', 'where's the fun in their sailing???' etc.... you old boys who propped up your sailing with happy pills and 'free love' in the 70's probably said the same about my generation in the 90's and early 2000's as we bobbed nonchalantly to Spice Girls and Oasis tracks whilst downing our Alcopops through a straw.
It's easy to reminisce and assume your youth was better than the current generation. I guess it makes the ageing process less painful.
But I'd say today's teenagers have it made.... the boats are far better. Take the 29er... my god what an awesome boat for young adults to sail, and they're even cheap as chips now they've built up a critical mass. Then you've got the RS range of Aeros, 500s, 200s ... so much better than digging out a knackered Lark from the nettles, or resurrecting a wooden decked Fireball that was simply too water-rotten to burn on Guy Fawkes night.
Sure, there's the youth squad scene, for all the damning and false expectation setting we cite here, I can't for one minute think that 360 out of 370 boats down in Hayling at the Youth Nationals are actually deluded enough to think they'll be the next Ben Ainslie. These kids wouldn't be going unless they wanted to, I say let them go and enjoy it whilst they still can. I bet most of them have a laugh n' a half... and so they should, they're kids!
What's the reason why they don't return to dinghy sailing after uni? Well, I'd say that's a whole socio-economic debate that's geared towards f**king the newer generations over, but most here probably wouldn't want to read that as they sit in their homes 'worth' on average 10 times what they took a mortgage out for back in 1972.
Here's one thought for a surrogate Friday afternoon though, perhaps one of the reasons why club sailing remains so unattractive to sub 30-somethings, (probably to most sub 50 somethings too), lots of old moaning blokes telling them it was so much better in their day; whilst punting over-priced, under-handicapped dross from the same era around a sh*tty pond in nowheresville.....
Yep, mountain biking, five a side football, trekking, skiing, rock climbing, kite surfing..... they all suddenly become a hell of a lot more attractive.
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by turnturtle
lots of old moaning blokes telling them it was so much better in their day; whilst punting over-priced, under-handicapped dross from the same era around a sh*tty pond in nowheresville.....
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You are obviously at the wrong club Jimbo.
And don't tell me it's about money; my perennial student son has 2 bikes, self-funded, that cost more (including trailer) than my aged but competitive enough RS200.
Mountain biking, I sort of get, but road-biking, risking life and limb, pi$$ing-off lorries, buses and motorists in exchange for some endorphins? If we cannot make sailing more attractive than that as a sport, we are seriously doing something wrong.
Also, read SUGmeister above, that was well put. But I'd add that an open every few weeks was something to look forward to. If you've been trawled all over the country, most weekends, from age 12 to squads at Burnham, Pwhelli, Portland et al I can well imagine you've had enough by 16. Teenagers seem to want to sleep at least half the time, in their beds, not whilst propped up in the back of a Volvo XC90 on another 5-hour trip out or home. "Done too much, much too young."
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by turnturtle
But I'd say today's teenagers have it made.... the boats are far better. Take the 29er... my god what an awesome boat for young adults to sail, and they're even cheap as chips now they've built up a critical mass. Then you've got the RS range of Aeros, 500s, 200s ...
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I am not disputing that these boats are fantastic, but are these boats really getting more of the younger demographic out on the water racing?
I suspect this forum is pretty much exclusively used by said grupy bu**ers so I don't think it is too harmful to moan here. I would suspect that most of us are pretty enthusiastic and upbeat at our clubs.
I accept that I sail what has become known as an old man's boat ... but I sail it because I believe that it offers the best singlehanded one-design competition locally and nationally.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
I accept that I sail what has become known as an old man's boat ... but I sail it because I believe that it offers the best singlehanded one-design competition locally and nationally.
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and I'd whole-heartedly agree with you (adding a few extras like OKs and Finns in to the mix)... but I would have scoffed at the idea at 25!
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by fab100
Mountain biking, I sort of get, but road-biking, risking life and limb, pi$$ing-off lorries, buses and motorists in exchange for some endorphins? If we cannot make sailing more attractive than that as a sport, we are seriously doing something wrong. |
hmm, I'm sure most 'road bikers' avoid congestion where possible- rolling hills, curving roads.
Hipsters on fixies on the other hand, well they're just punks with manners who can brew a decent organic latte.
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by turnturtle
Originally posted by fab100
Mountain biking, I sort of get, but road-biking, risking life and limb, pi$$ing-off lorries, buses and motorists in exchange for some endorphins? If we cannot make sailing more attractive than that as a sport, we are seriously doing something wrong. |
hmm, I'm sure most 'road bikers' avoid congestion where possible- rolling hills, curving roads. |
Not around here they don't
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
I accept that I sail what has become known as an old man's boat ... but I sail it because I believe that it offers the best singlehanded one-design competition locally and nationally.
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At least your Solo is not barbie-pink (but postured as 'lilac') David 
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by fab100
Originally posted by davidyacht
I accept that I sail what has become known as an old man's boat ... but I sail it because I believe that it offers the best singlehanded one-design competition locally and nationally.
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At least your Solo is not barbie-pink (but postured as 'lilac') David  |
Will discuss over a pint in October I hope
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 6:30pm
I was allowed out of the house on my own when I was about 10 ish, I got up to all sorts, used to cycle to Bridgenorth from West Brom' most saturdays in the summer, about 20 miles, wandering along canal with catapult later air rifle, couldn't wait for first drink in a pub, really enjoyed my youth. My 2 sons didn't have time to do these things, both studying most of time, I can't remember homework to the extent they get now, schools appear to work similar to youth squads, exam results, exam results, Sats this Sats that.
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Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 7:49pm
Sailing at any level is a big (in emotion and time and risk of all sorts) complicated and expensive sport, not just in financial terms but in time and effort and organisation skills and it takes time and enthusiasm to get good at it .
There are just so many other things that are easier to get into. Bike groups around here hook up on face book meet at a pub and enjoy a days ride, minimal organisation effort involved, minimal time involved doing the organisation.
My club is experiencing an explosion in canoeing, kayaking (SOTs) and paddle boarding. More people are getting afloat with these new methods because they have a short learning curve and require minimal training. We had 200 entries on the Dart a few days ago for the Sup race.
https://standuppaddlemag.co.uk/2017/04/03/a-race-for-all-comers-head-of-the-dart-sup-challenge-2017-race-report/
Bloody wonderful!!. I'm going to be removing dinghy park spaces and converting them to Canoe and Kayak spaces as I can get 6 in the space of one dinghy. We charge £55/year for dinghy and £30 for a Canoe/Kayak/Sup space so profit for us: £30x6=180-55=£125. Numbers talk.
I've always been a dinghy sailor, Ents, Lasers, Canoes, Finns and now back to a Laser and a retro Sailboard (Laser Surfsprint) and I recognise that the world is changing and I want my club to survive and prosper.
Though sailing will always remain a core club activity, it no longer generates the numbers it once did and there is nothing that can be done about it. Maybe the wheel of fortune will bring the numbers back again?
In the meantime I'm organising a "passage race" to Dartmouth this summer. Down with the tide, picnic in Coronation park and a pull back up with the club power boats. Should be a laugh maybe even some fun to be had. 
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 8:02pm
Beware straw fires, easy in sports are also easy out, SUP will be a flash in the pan, not something to build clubs on, by all means encourage them, but don't rely on banking long term and certainly don't neglect the racers. We've had them on and off along with roadies, kiters, short board windsurfers, but the only people that stick are those that need the organisational nature of a club.
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by 423zero
, exam results, exam results, Sats this Sats that. |
was talking this subject with my chemistry teacher (he must have been very young then, with hindsight). He said "never heard of a pig getting heavier by weighing it". Genius..
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 8:30pm
Given Mr Henshall's very valid point about Family Sailing weeks, just looking at Championship events, why not run a handicap regatta fleet that anyone can enter alongside a championship event?
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
Dougal's article makes interesting reading and hits quite a few mails on the head. Having just been present at a 51 Merlin Silver Tiller Open at Salcombe, it seems to me that most of the youngsters sticking with dinghy sailing are 2nd and 3rd generations of families who were at the forefront of our sport in the 70's and 80's. Maybe they have seen the fun that can be had.
The big problem as I see it is that the huge numbers participating in Youth Sailing have no experience of the fun that can be had ... maybe as a consequence of spending their formative years in singlehanders, and having lettle exposure to beer (and other vices) in class cultures that discourage youthful indiscretion.
Maybe the big initiative should be to grab those being spat out of Youth Sailing and get them into the mainstream of dinghy racing? |
We have healthy Youth and Junior provision at my club and I guarantee the Kids are having lots of fun. When they are old enough to drink they disappear off to university and then have to work very hard to build a career and then afford a roof over there head. They then get tied up in having families and eventually some come back. Everyone is time poor now and sailing is a time rich sport. Many other activities are much quicker to access. All we can hope is we have deeply planted the love of sailing in our youth. I think your view of what is fun is rather narrow.
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by tink
We have healthy Youth and Junior provision at my club and I guarantee the Kids are having lots of fun. When they are old enough to drink they disappear off to university and then have to work very hard to build a career and then afford a roof over there head. They then get tied up in having families and eventually some come back. Everyone is time poor now and sailing is a time rich sport. Many other activities are much quicker to access. All we can hope is we have deeply planted the love of sailing in our youth. I think your view of what is fun is rather narrow. |
I don't disagree with the points you make ... though I tried to paraphrase what I consider to be fun!
If Dougal's article is to have any value, we should be discussing how to address the issues that he raises.
It does strike me that the big growth classes of the 70's and 80's were the Laser, Mirror, Hobie and Sunfish which were not particularly hard to access ... in some ways the Laser was no more complex than a bike, though it is a bit more sophisticated now. Many of us stuck with the Laser through our twenties because it was easy to fit in with our lives and the cost of ownership was not unattainable.
The deriguer classes of today are relatively more expensive and complex, though the Aero and D-Zero deserve to attract a similar demographic.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 11:06pm
The laser was pretty special though when it came out - attracted a fair share of criticism whilst providing a zeitgeist feel of modern technology for the younger audience. And let's be honest, given a reach and a F4 they can still put a smile on the face of even their sourest of detractors. By comparison, today's aero and zero look remarkably like the Laser giving a distinct impression the game really hasn't moved on.
Of course the success of the Aero and hopefully the zero is that they are the absolute anthesis of visible progress and technology- we've all been sold the fads, be that asymmetrical sails, wires, racks and for some, even foils to make you airbourne. All have their place in sailing broad arsenal of niche weaponary, but none have engraciated themselves into the mainstream dinghy racing scene to any great extent- certainly not in singlehanders.
It could be an interesting few years .... I personally think the Aero and Zero still offer some light at the end of the tunnel. I wish them both success and it's good to see prices beginning to soften for second hand boats.
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 6:38am
Originally posted by davidyacht
Originally posted by tink
We have healthy Youth and Junior provision at my club and I guarantee the Kids are having lots of fun. When they are old enough to drink they disappear off to university and then have to work very hard to build a career and then afford a roof over there head. They then get tied up in having families and eventually some come back. Everyone is time poor now and sailing is a time rich sport. Many other activities are much quicker to access. All we can hope is we have deeply planted the love of sailing in our youth. I think your view of what is fun is rather narrow. |
I don't disagree with the points you make ... though I tried to paraphrase what I consider to be fun!
If Dougal's article is to have any value, we should be discussing how to address the issues that he raises.
It does strike me that the big growth classes of the 70's and 80's were the Laser, Mirror, Hobie and Sunfish which were not particularly hard to access ... in some ways the Laser was no more complex than a bike, though it is a bit more sophisticated now. Many of us stuck with the Laser through our twenties because it was easy to fit in with our lives and the cost of ownership was not unattainable.
The deriguer classes of today are relatively more expensive and complex, though the Aero and D-Zero deserve to attract a similar demographic.
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We live in very different times than the 70's and 80's, young people pay proportionally a lot more on rent, mortgage, saving for deposits so can't afford Aero Etc. In addition when the Laser came out there where no second hand Lasers or established fleets. Your zone squad hot shot can buy a second hand Laser for a 1/5 that of a Aero and go and sail in a fleet of other Laser Sailors.
I fail to understand what these craft have done to deserve anything. They appear to be great boats and I would love to have one but I would not pay all that money to handicap race when I can fleet race for a fraction of the cost.
You can fully understand RS etc problem. The only way to complete with the second hand market is with a poly boat, many youngsters grew up on these. They could put out a shape updated Laser but use older cheaper technology - few few takers of that. Or they spend a lot on development and up to date technology and give us the Aero, more chance of success but price hike.
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 8:34am
[/QUOTE]
I fail to understand what these craft have done to deserve anything. They appear to be great boats and I would love to have one but I would not pay all that money to handicap race when I can fleet race for a fraction of the cost.
You can fully understand RS etc problem. The only way to complete with the second hand market is with a poly boat, many youngsters grew up on these. They could put out a shape updated Laser but use older cheaper technology - few few takers of that. Or they spend a lot on development and up to date technology and give us the Aero, more chance of success but price hike.
[/QUOTE]
Well lots of club sailors round here took advantage of the fleet deal offered. So they dropped straight into fleet racing in Aeros and to a lesser degree Zeros (although they kind of race as 'erotica anyway). And given the weight sensitivity of the laser that fleet within handicap thing wasn't available to them until this point. They race more level in the Aeros.
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 9:25am
Originally posted by sargesail
Well lots of club sailors round here took advantage of the fleet deal offered. So they dropped straight into fleet racing in Aeros and to a lesser degree Zeros (although they kind of race as 'erotica anyway). And given the weight sensitivity of the laser that fleet within handicap thing wasn't available to them until this point. They race more level in the Aeros.
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I was just being silly at use of the word deserve, I would love to sail in a fleet of Aeros but I unlikely to persuade people will years invested in their current class.
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 11:20am
Originally posted by tink
Originally posted by sargesail
Well lots of club sailors round here took advantage of the fleet deal offered. So they dropped straight into fleet racing in Aeros and to a lesser degree Zeros (although they kind of race as 'erotica anyway). And given the weight sensitivity of the laser that fleet within handicap thing wasn't available to them until this point. They race more level in the Aeros.
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I was just being silly at use of the word deserve, I would love to sail in a fleet of Aeros but I unlikely to persuade people will years invested in their current class.
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There is a fleet of 10 D-Zeros at my local club now. Many of whom had 'years' invested in other classes and all of whom are loving the boat.
It can be done, just takes a little time and being prepared to lend your boat out.
------------- Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 12:10pm
Davidyacht - your tag line Handicap Racing cannot be taken seriously, the only proper racing is in international Moths, 14's, Merlins, Fireballs and Solos! is not really conducive to putting the F in fun...
| http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12724&PN=3&title=is-the-f-in-fun-going-to-be-lacking-in-the-future#top" rel="nofollow"> |
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by fab100
Originally posted by turnturtle
Originally posted by fab100
Mountain biking, I sort of get, but road-biking, risking life and limb, pi$$ing-off lorries, buses and motorists in exchange for some endorphins? If we cannot make sailing more attractive than that as a sport, we are seriously doing something wrong. |
hmm, I'm sure most 'road bikers' avoid congestion where possible- rolling hills, curving roads. |
Not around here they don't |
Well, around here we do. There are hundreds of miles of attractive country lanes to cycle without much traffic.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by A2Z
Davidyacht - your tag line Handicap Racing cannot be taken seriously, the only proper racing is in international Moths, 14's, Merlins, Fireballs and Solos! is not really conducive to putting the F in fun...
| http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12724&PN=3&title=is-the-f-in-fun-going-to-be-lacking-in-the-future#top" rel="nofollow"> |
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Sorry, I have lost you on this; sailing in big fleets on a level basis is great fun, I get to race against the best, you have comraderie on the water, I club race against 20+ similar boats most weekends, my class has good residual values, you have lifelong friends, I get to go to Garda next year, I get to drink beers after racing, if it is windy I get to sail fast planing reaches; please explain the alternatives that tick the same boxes?
The above applies to Solos, Merlins tick a lot of the same boxes, 14's give you big smiles as do Moths, maybe Fireballs don't tick as many boxes ... but the strap line was intended to provoke a response from a regular poster 
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 3:03pm
But you say handicap racing can't be taken seriously - as if that's a bad thing. If you want racing to be fun, perhaps it is, in fact, best not to take it seriously! 😉
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Posted By: BeenThere
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 8:02pm
Gave up sailing, took up golf. Far less hassle, can get round the course quicker than getting a boat ready. TBH none of the rest of the family are interested in boating so a little out numbered.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 8:12pm
Was talking to a chap with 2 smallish kids in the shop today who owns a Laser, goes and does mud runs, is taking up walking again (he was buying boots), had just hired canoes at South Cerney Outdoors that morning and lots of other outdoor things. I suspect this is a fairly common model of family life. His view was that the ones he can involve the family with will win out.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by BeenThere
Gave up sailing, took up golf. Far less hassle, can get round the course quicker than getting a boat ready. TBH none of the rest of the family are interested in boating so a little out numbered. |
You have my sympathy 
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by Rupert
Was talking to a chap with 2 smallish kids in the shop today who owns a Laser, goes and does mud runs, is taking up walking again (he was buying boots), had just hired canoes at South Cerney Outdoors that morning and lots of other outdoor things. I suspect this is a fairly common model of family life. His view was that the ones he can involve the family with will win out. |
Sadly very true, hence my current focus towards alpine sports ... it something we actually ALL look forward to, even if it's just for two weeks a year. Cycling fills the void in between, and can at least be done after/during/with alcoholic consumption
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 15 Apr 17 at 9:09am
Hell yes - Right - lets stop all this boring sailing stuff without delay and move onto on 'Alpine sports' banter and littering the country with even more of those trendy 'mamil' type images. You know the ones where 'excess cash' is wedded to unrealisitic ambition and shoe-horned into that nice stretchy 'all covering' lycra in this years 'on trend' colour..
Makes sailing look rather more sane ... Oh brave new world etc ... 
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 15 Apr 17 at 9:39am
Originally posted by Cirrus
You know the ones where 'excess cash' is wedded to unrealisitic ambition [/IMG]
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Sounds like the strap line for buying the Mk3 version of 'Mike's Topper'
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 15 Apr 17 at 10:45am
You have to invest time in you kids to get them into anything, that may mean a few years when you simply don't compete competitively. My 11 year old is fanatical about sailing, horse rides with mum and we ski, hill walk and casual cycle as a family. No we don't sit still much.
I fully appreciate I only have one child and that that makes it easier and the sailing club I am member is fantastic for youth and junior section.
The fun comes from sailing, and because this is so important I drink less on the eve of a sailing than I did when I was young and silly.
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 15 Apr 17 at 11:37am
Sounds like the strap line for buying the Mk3 version of 'Mike's Topper'
Really the best you can do ? ..... must have hit a raw one there !!
PS - Come along there ...do try and keep up ... It is not 'mine' it is Hartleys, has been for some considerable time, and they do have a very healthy backlog of orders and are shipping 3-4 each and every month. The CA has near enough 60 paid-up pre-entries already for the June Nationals wth more to come I'm told. I'm just another sad old punter now ... bit like you TT maybe. )
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 15 Apr 17 at 1:02pm
No nerve hit, just offering something a little astringent to counter your former.
I've always been a punter, no need to use this forum to flog my wares, the closest I've been to a busman's holiday was using my instructor qualification at 17... I lasted three weeks before accepting that being a glorified childminder was ruining my love for sailing. Come to think about it, we did try and put the fun into it- teaching kids who, in the main, were coming in fresh with no past parental sailing. Reality was of course, it was just a cheap partially funded holiday camp for working mums to dump their brats off. I doubt any actually took up sailing as a result.
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 15 Apr 17 at 7:29pm
I guess most on here have had more than a spell at 'serious' racing, and some of us spent our formative sailing years burning gas and tyre rubber traipsing from one end of the country to another chasing that series result. In my world having Fun sailboarding, they even called it fun boarding, involved special boards that only really shone in high winds, the problem was that drove the sport to become ever more elite when most folks idea of 'Fun' is very different from anything that is regimented and organised, it is/was just taken the board off the roof and looming about for a couple of hours on the lake or at the coast, maybe having a couple of beers with fellow travellers and wandering home.Fun is a silly word to apply to what we are about, in this game, no, not a game it is a competitive sport. They used to hold 'Fun' events, still do now and again, I wouldn't bother to show, they're not fun at all, they're dumbed down stupidity on water and that's not what I'm about. Even now, on the water a race at whatever level is a race, you're trying to beat everyone else, that's why it's called a race, wether everyone is in the same boat or they are all in different kinds of boat, it's still a race. OK there maybe some folk who like to come along and just sail from point to point, but I bet every single one of them has a quick look to see how they got on in the results and if they're further up the fleet than they thought they might be they'll be tickled by it if not they'll have their reasons and that'll be it, they'll put it down to a bit of fun.
So this word Fun there it is again, I wonder if it is even the right word, either way there is no such thing as the Royal Fun Yachting Association, nor is there the World Fun Sailing association and even if there were, they would right royally f**k it up, that's not what they are there for, so I'm not quite sure where that article is headed.
Is it about those of us already here having more 'Fun' in which case it's wrong, or is it about the general decline in numbers and that I fear is more down to the general lack of competitiveness promoted at school level in this PC world where there are supposed to be no losers and school sports days are now school 'shorts' days and nobody wins, because there can be no ahem 'not winners'. As to those of us already here changing our habits after the recent caning we all had at the hands of the biggest recession since the great depression, or the fact the roads are so crowded with Trucks, immigrants, johnny foreigners and school runners making the journey from A to B take longer than it might have done before the days of motorways.
Or it might just be because the baby boomers that created all this are just done with it for any number of reasons and increasing age being the main one, but as to travelling to a Nationals for 'Fun' which I did once in my early enthusiasm, to be faced with four races back to back miles out in the bay and no time to fix a busted bit under the bonnet and to face a 'time out', something we'd never consider at any of our events in the days we ran three or four a day with a break for lunch, everyone got to finish, wtf is a time out? That's not fun, nor is an empty bar when you come ashore, or a handful of blokes in an indian restaurant at 8 o'clock, everyone knows indians are for after closing when you can hardly stand and have to sit down somewhere. Our One design events used to be 'Fun' after the racing at least they were until the RYA turned up when we became Olympic and instead of us being able to use the kids to drive us home when we were too peeved at the disco, or sending them on errands to bring more free beer from the happy hour, they all got marched off to bed after one soft drink, not many of them stuck with that and went of wave sailing instead. In fact the class pretty much collapsed as had many other sailing classes which become Olympic and in reality this is what is happening to our governing body and the sport in general, it is collapsing for the same reason back in the day every sailing class that became an Olympic class collapsed, it's not that it's not Fun, it's that it is the exact opposite, it's work, not sport. What we aspire to is sport which we enjoy, what they are selling is a job of work and not a very good job at that, one with long hours and little reward. So where does that leave us? The ones that do it for sport?
We just have to do what we always did, get on with it and organise ourselves as best we can and to that end the only decent future we can expect if we wish this thing of ours to continue is to either lobby the b**tards to remember what they are there for, or get on with organising an alternative. Now to do that we need either a federation of racing classes, wait, isn't that what the RYA is anyway? So what else then? maybe we do what I've been cracking on about for ages and organise an association of handicap racers, that everyone could belong to and use that as a kick off pressure group with which to challenge the b**tards, they do a bad enough job of it (the fact some of you think it's improving is simply testament to how bad it actually is) already, a proper body offering a decent solution might make them sit up and take notice. Whatever, it would need a get together to talk it through, maybe at that next Forum Open Meeting Rodney was threatening, maybe something else, a conference of the dispossessed? We all have the answer and certainly know where Auntie Stella keeps it after all.
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 15 Apr 17 at 9:50pm
Wow, you edited this,any attempt by you to start a new organisation are scuppered from the start, RYA would publish your racist comments.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Apr 17 at 10:48am
I think the point some are making isn't that dinghy sailing isn't fun for what it is, it's just not for everyone. No matter what facilities were really in place at a sailing club or sailing event, I doubt my wife would want to be there... quite simply she'd rather be at home and would certainly never consider it a holiday.
Same goes for my kids.... they're just not that in to it, and I can't blame them given the weather we get in the UK for most of the year. I feel very much the same around the horse stables - god awful places that they are, and weird as f**k the people whom frequent them.
So when you find sports and activities that work for you as a family, you tend to prioritise them and make the most of them for what they are - even if, in an ideal world you would rather be sailing.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Apr 17 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by 423zero
Wow, you edited this,any attempt by you to start a new organisation are scuppered from the start, RYA would publish your racist comments. | i edited this as well because it posted before i even wrote anything as for 'racist comments' i'm sorry, youve got me there, i have no idea what you're blathering on about.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 16 Apr 17 at 2:47pm
Tabloids would happily point out your racist comments, just what sailing needs, tabloids quoting posters comments from Y&Y
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16 Apr 17 at 4:43pm
Why on earth would a tabloid quote that post, or indeed any post on Y&Y?
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 16 Apr 17 at 5:09pm
Racist is about the only 'ist-ism I've not seen from GRF. 
Obviously I don't genuinely presume to know the man but I suspect and hope all his other 'ist-isms are meant more for reader riling effect than founded in malice. Bar of course whiner-ism but then a lot of us prefer doers to whiners.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Apr 17 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by A2Z
Why on earth would a tabloid quote that post, or indeed any post on Y&Y? |
To be fair, they've quoted worse, but I take your point
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 16 Apr 17 at 6:57pm
Sad to see Johnny Foreigner appears to be acceptable and unremarkable to several posters
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 16 Apr 17 at 8:17pm
"Johnny Foreigner..."
Unusual term to use these days (think I last heard it in an episode of Blackadder), mildly derogatory but many much more offensive terms out there. Not sure the PC police will be banging on GRFs door!
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Apr 17 at 8:26pm
Confected offence is the reason you have the idiots you have in power at the moment, you'd do well to live and let live a little more, this right wing backlash has it's roots in exactly pathetic incidents like this. Johnny Foreigner is in itself a humorous aside, a send up, always has been, just add it to my other isms and phobia's, I do so wonder all those lives that were given back in the day and one of the alleged freedoms they defended was that of expression, what would they think of the world today and how those freedoms they died for have been squandered at the alter of political correctness.
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Apr 17 at 9:23pm
Indeed Johnny Foreigner, hardly 'nig nog' is it??
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 16 Apr 17 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by turnturtle
Indeed Johnny Foreigner, hardly 'nig nog' is it?? |
Looks like there's some kind of attention deficit thing going on here....no sign of any hyperactivity though.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 9:25am
Actually it's just a (well known) critique of Political Correctness and language evolution - Nig Nog has no racial derivation, it hails from Yorkshire and is synonymous with a silly person. People like to re-write language history to suit their agendas - this is one such example.
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Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 4:48pm
Interesting article by Sir Trevor Phillips a few weeks back suggesting that the "populist" surge in public opinion is down to too much political correctness being pushed by the so called liberal intelligentsia.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 5:05pm
Interesting chap, Mr Phillips. He was president of the local students union when I was at college. His political thinking then was not much like mine, but I did end up with a good deal of respect for his integrity, which seemed to me rather greater than many of his colleagues in the doctrinaire left.
Its an interesting thing how political commentators have made changing your mind in the light of new evidence seem like a bad thing, when in fact its the only rational thing to do. But the press yammers on about U turns and stuff, as if it were important to stick to one theory, no matter how correct or incorrect it turns out to be.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by turnturtle
Actually it's just a (well known) critique of Political Correctness and language evolution - Nig Nog has no racial derivation, it hails from Yorkshire and is synonymous with a silly person. People like to re-write language history to suit their agendas - this is one such example. |
So I was right, you were trolling.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:14am
That's one way to view it I guess, the other would be to use something I learnt in A-Level English for ironic effect ... the opportunity rarely presents itself, so you're just going to have to humour me.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:15am
Originally posted by NickM
Interesting article by Sir Trevor Phillips a few weeks back suggesting that the "populist" surge in public opinion is down to too much political correctness being pushed by the so called liberal intelligentsia. |
I'd like to read that, but I'd agree with the sentiment 100%
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Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:02am
It was also on Channel 4:
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/has-political-correctness-gone-mad
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:57am
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 11:12am
Originally posted by turnturtle
That's one way to view it I guess, the other would be to use something I learnt in A-Level English for ironic effect ... the opportunity rarely presents itself, so you're just going to have to humour me. |
Where to start?
I'll give it a go anyway. The example you give demonstrates that words and phrases change their meaning over time. Fact. The phrase that originally meant "silly person" was hijacked not by the "liberal Intelligentsia" but by the likes of Jim Davidson et al in the 70's and 80's (and probably before that by some folk). I have no idea what their agenda was but it certainly wasn't liberal and it certainly had nothing to do with intelligence. Common usage not derivation dictates current meaning . Fact. You know that, many all lexicographers know it. Your example is now offensive to some folk and it's too late to claim it back as an innocent phrase.
So what now?
Being offended is a decision, some folk might benefit from deciding not to be offended, it would certainly lower their blood pressure.
We could leave it there but..... My Mum is offended by swearing, I am not. It's a generational thing I guess. Out of respect for my Mum and her feelings I don't swear in front of her. It's called good manners and it's born out of respect for other folk. Also: "so you're just going to have to humour me."please don't tell me what I "have" to think or do. It smacks of political correctness. P.S. By the way, I am not offended. 
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 11:30am
So hands up all those who were 'offended' by the term Johnny Foreigner which this is after all about, oh and it sounds like you can have another chance at voting again on June 8th, not that I think political correctness is anywhere on the agenda.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 11:47am
I'm not offended, I just think that people who use it make themselves look like prats
------------- Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 12:03pm
Surely prat is offensive...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by A2Z
Surely prat is offensive...
| It might be if issued by somebody who's opinion concerned me.
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 12:30pm
Any chance we could get back to the sailing?
I'm going to have to give up social media for the next 50 days to avoid all the political jibber-jabber and need a refuge.
I suspect it's naive to hope this could be a total oasis from Brexit, general elections and the like, (including political correctness based over-reactions to the mischievous posts made by some of this parish) but surely we could all make an effort to leave the politics at the door. Please. 
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 12:37pm
What a dreadful bit of plagiarism. You'd think the SOB could give some credit to the originator, Randall Munroe on XKCD
https://xkcd.com/386/
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 12:50pm
I guess that I was naive when starting this thread that the rugular posters would come up with some ideas of how to put the fun into sailing ... more like a fun black hole
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 12:52pm
Can I ask a serious question then, what would you typically define as the 'fun' that is missing from sailing?
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
I guess that I was naive when starting this thread that the rugular posters would come up with some ideas of how to put the fun into sailing ... more like a fun black hole |
When I was a lad, there were some interesting race formats: - "Up-anchors" - anchor on the start line, sails down. Hoist, up-anchor and sail off when the gun goes. The chandler loved it. At least 2 anchors would not be tied into the boat when chucked over the side. Also amusing when tide was under you and stronger than windage on boat
- Fisherman's Arms - up the river, negotiating sandbanks etc. Moor at Golant Quay, run to pub, drink pint. Carry back another pint to crew, who drinks, return glass to pub, run back to boat. Sail back. I won that one several times. It's a small quay and lots of boats competing for space.
- Each mark was a rowing boat, dispensing G&Ts. Come alongside, acquire and drink G&T whilst alongside. Sail on, repeat at next mark. I still suggest this concept occasionally, but there seem to be few takers, even tho ribs are softer than clinker-wooden rowing boats
- The single-handed races in double/treble-handers were also a grin
Actually, rather like Salcombe, most races in Fowey harbour are a bit crazy, with wind inversions and transitions, tide and also merciless China Cay ships motoring off with the ww mark wrapped around their prop.
At Neilson, Amy and I won a prize for silliest capsize in a Pico - daddy walking-the-plank along the boom I think it was
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 1:10pm
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 1:13pm
Following that question I think it's possible to eliminate all the none fun things.
As I suspect the rest of you do, I love sailing but only the racing bit, what got me into it was the camaraderie of a team of two of us, sadly death and illness have deprived me of that part and so I've had to content myself with the personal limitations of single handed sailing, but it's still fun if it wasn't I just wouldn't do it. If there was ever another FOM I'd be there, precisely because it was fun, it was light hearted with piss taking, banter and boat swapping, I met and put faces to names from here, all great people in reality even though their online persona like mine can be prattish to coin a recent phrase. It was by far the best dinghy event I've ever attended even though I was dwarf tossed over the fence and robbed of my rightful victory by a bunch of ringers in bandit craft on a puddle.
It was a fun event, probably because it wasn't organised with any particular agenda other than for us lot to meet and sail together, we should do it annually.
But as for the none fun things.
Travelling on motorways to events - simple, don't do it and as the figures suggest fewer are.
Lots of races back to back - again don't bother with classes that do that, sell the boat and move on
Protests - try not to get involved in them, just retire and hit the bar early.
Shouty people, shout back, but something funny and absurd defuse the situation
Stiff rules say like buoyancy on hot days - don't observe them or enforce them.
Problems with PY - lobby to set local Yardsticks.
Join the committee and try to make the local racing better if it's crap.
It's simple really if it's not fun or doesn't look like it then just don't do it or try to change it.
The big question is therefore is there too much stuff that isn't fun and that's why those bits are in decline.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by iGRF
Can I ask a serious question then, what would you typically define as the 'fun' that is missing from sailing? |
I take my sailing (racing) too seriously, I have developed an anal attention to detail, I am pedantic about the rules, wear grey sailing gear and I am probably too shouty ... none of these are fun and I don't believe that I am alone with these traits.
This is not too disimilar as when windsurfing disapeared up its own a**e.
I guess that it would be nice to ocassionally go sailing for a blast ... but this does not really fit into my busy life.
On reflection I could have more fun if I changed my attitude, after all we are often only sailing in a club race, in a class among a multitude of classes in what is a very minor sport. I suspect that this is the case for many.
My best sailing moment in the last few years was sailing back from the race area to Riva del Garda in a F4 Ora on a broad reach ... so sun, windforce and location are important.
Mates are important to the Fun of sailing, and a good social scene encourages turnouts.
I used to really enjoy team racing, particularly two boat team racing, but my interest died when the "mast abeam" rule was abolished.
We used to have a Commodores day with races without rudders, sailing backwards races and a BBQ, this was fun.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by transient
Originally posted by turnturtle
That's one way to view it I guess, the other would be to use something I learnt in A-Level English for ironic effect ... the opportunity rarely presents itself, so you're just going to have to humour me. |
Where to start?I'll give it a go anyway. The example you give demonstrates that words and phrases change their meaning over time. Fact. The phrase that originally meant "silly person" was hijacked not by the "liberal Intelligentsia" but by the likes of Jim Davidson et al in the 70's and 80's (and probably before that by some folk). I have no idea what their agenda was but it certainly wasn't liberal and it certainly had nothing to do with intelligence. Common usage not derivation dictates current meaning . Fact. You know that, many all lexicographers know it. Your example is now offensive to some folk and it's too late to claim it back as an innocent phrase. So what now? Being offended is a decision, some folk might benefit from deciding not to be offended, it would certainly lower their blood pressure. We could leave it there but.....My Mum is offended by swearing, I am not. It's a generational thing I guess. Out of respect for my Mum and her feelings I don't swear in front of her. It's called good manners and it's born out of respect for other folk.Also: "so you're just going to have to humour me."please don't tell me what I "have" to think or do. It smacks of political correctness.  P.S. By the way, I am not offended. 
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First and foremost, thanks for reply - well worded and written.
Secondly, you are of course 100% correct- language evolves, in doing so causing undesired offence on occasion- just look at the recent example on here of calling a boat g-a-y... language evolves in some circles and the meaning is no longer In exclusive use for homosexual identity, pejorative or otherwise, right or wrong though that may be.
FInally, I would never use the term nig nog in general parlance and I am sure you can understand the ironic use here. Using it might get you wrongly labelled a racialist, but worse than that, you could be mistaken as an old bloke from Yorkshire... and That sir, is just too far gone.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
Originally posted by iGRF
Can I ask a serious question then, what would you typically define as the 'fun' that is missing from sailing? |
[---]I take my sailing (racing) too seriously, I have developed an anal attention to detail, I am pedantic about the rules, wear grey sailing gear and I am probably too shouty ... none of these are fun and I don't believe that I am alone with these traits.] | No, but it's competitive sport which you obviously enjoy and are passionate about which was the point I was trying to make in my first post, if you were forced to engage in frivolity or some of your number just plane missed out the odd mark, or broke other rules, you wouldn't enjoy the pursuit at all.
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by turnturtle
It's easy to look at today's kids and say 'pah, look they don't know how to party like we did', 'where's the fun in their sailing???' etc.... you old boys who propped up your sailing with happy pills and 'free love' in the 70's probably said the same about my generation in the 90's and early 2000's as we bobbed nonchalantly to Spice Girls and Oasis tracks whilst downing our Alcopops through a straw.
It's easy to reminisce and assume your youth was better than the current generation. I guess it makes the ageing process less painful.
But I'd say today's teenagers have it made.... the boats are far better. Take the 29er... my god what an awesome boat for young adults to sail, and they're even cheap as chips now they've built up a critical mass. Then you've got the RS range of Aeros, 500s, 200s ... so much better than digging out a knackered Lark from the nettles, or resurrecting a wooden decked Fireball that was simply too water-rotten to burn on Guy Fawkes night.
Sure, there's the youth squad scene, for all the damning and false expectation setting we cite here, I can't for one minute think that 360 out of 370 boats down in Hayling at the Youth Nationals are actually deluded enough to think they'll be the next Ben Ainslie. These kids wouldn't be going unless they wanted to, I say let them go and enjoy it whilst they still can. I bet most of them have a laugh n' a half... and so they should, they're kids!
What's the reason why they don't return to dinghy sailing after uni? Well, I'd say that's a whole socio-economic debate that's geared towards f**king the newer generations over, but most here probably wouldn't want to read that as they sit in their homes 'worth' on average 10 times what they took a mortgage out for back in 1972.
Here's one thought for a surrogate Friday afternoon though, perhaps one of the reasons why club sailing remains so unattractive to sub 30-somethings, (probably to most sub 50 somethings too), lots of old moaning blokes telling them it was so much better in their day; whilst punting over-priced, under-handicapped dross from the same era around a sh*tty pond in nowheresville.....
Yep, mountain biking, five a side football, trekking, skiing, rock climbing, kite surfing..... they all suddenly become a hell of a lot more attractive.
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Hits the nail firmly on the head there ...
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 6:49pm
I enjoy the cut and thrust of racing, the "Mark" banter, I very rarely sail for the sake of it. "Political Correctness", a derogatory term for a collection of people from all backgrounds who are attempting to encourage people to look at the issues of racism, wether comic ???? or criminal, I am a Christian and try to do what Jesus would do, not very successfully for the most part but I do try.
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:03pm
Has the social scene disappeared? Probably in most cases due to an aging demographic who have kids, etc and other pressures on their time. I have always gone to events to meet up with friends, make new ones and have a sociable time. The racing was always a bit of an afterthought. Too many events taking themselves too seriously? Could be. Or the lack of the social element bonding people together. That is what I think made the fom such a success. Social first, sailing second, apart from when a vertically challenged kentish person tried to ram my precious boat, then I got shouty too.
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:49pm
Is enjoying doing something the same as having fun? Fun suggests a giggle a minute, which sounds rather shallow and silly unless taking part in games, not races. I like to concentrate, I like to be competitive (though when this crosses over to "over competitive" I feel bad after) and I like to win if I can. If I'm not enjoying it, I tend to stop, a policy I decided on a decade or more ago when I found sailing was making me less happy, not more.
Quite agree too many races can kill the joy.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:52pm
Has the social scene disappeared? Probably in most cases due to an aging demographic who have kids, etc and other pressures on their time
Not where I sail - the social after racing is essential. Though most of us have now aged sufficiently to have kicked out the kids and given up work and other time wasting.
------------- Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:58pm
Pretty much polar opposite of 423 @ 6.49 I race to sail and will travel up to 6 hrs each way on a few weekends a year to do so at interesting venues. Cut n thrust............... well yes, I like a sweet move but don't put myself out to do someone else over. I really, really like a win but the lasting thrill and memory comes from being in a good team who nailed it as best they could, a win only puts the cherry on it. I will happily sail for the sake of it, nice boat, great water, good breeze why wouldn't ya?
edit.
Thinking on, I probably race more like a golfer; I sail against the course more than the other sailors, which is why I like venues I consider to be interesting.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:31pm
Do Different, I cruise too, lovely scenery round cornwall, just not on my pond. unless for fun, sponge fight etc
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:53pm
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by PeterG
Has the social scene disappeared? Probably in most cases due to an aging demographic who have kids, etc and other pressures on their time
Not where I sail - the social after racing is essential. Though most of us have now aged sufficiently to have kicked out the kids and given up work and other time wasting. |
you are lucky to be at a club where you have that.
Thinking more along the lines of the social side, in the sixties wasn't sailing all about the messing about in a boat? Fun. These days the message from the RYA comes across as racing, the Olympics being the only media based showcase for sailing to be honest. That relates to seriousness. Where is the fun? Not easy to find. I know that the RYA show nice pictures of enjoying sailing, but everything appears to be geared towards courses, a stream that you have to follow. Almost, you can't sail unless you have been on a course. This I guess stems from the way we perceive everything due to H&S. You have to be trained, if you are not you are a potential liability. Didn't have that in the sixties. Which is best?
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 11:16pm
I have not bothered much with this forum recently but I feel the need to comment. I do think that the squad system spoils the fun with emphasis on almost unobtainable Olympic glory. I have seen too many dissppointed young people abandon sailing when their dreams were not realised. My own son who showed talent at a young age never perused that route and has had a great time over the years winning his first nationals at 18 and a total of 7 before he was thirty. He (we) have had a great time with no regrets. These days he sails Byte and is current champion. Byte is a fun class because the only qualification for sailing them is lack of lard. Because of this ages in the current fleet range from 12 to 60 with 50 percent female. This makes for a fun time with great gung ho kids and more experienced elders. So sweat off a few pounds and come and join us!
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 7:58am
I didn't sail in the 60s, but my memories of racing in the 70s is of it being much more about the performance than the fun. You were racing hard in a big fleet to do the best you could, and as a crew, being pushed hard by your helm. The Cadet fleet would make today's squads seem all lovey dovey.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 9:47am
Originally posted by Rupert
Is enjoying doing something the same as having fun? Fun suggests a giggle a minute, which sounds rather shallow and silly unless taking part in games, not races. I like to concentrate, I like to be competitive (though when this crosses over to "over competitive" I feel bad after) and I like to win if I can. If I'm not enjoying it, I tend to stop, a policy I decided on a decade or more ago when I found sailing was making me less happy, not more.
Quite agree too many races can kill the joy. |
That put's it exactly as I see it, oh to be so succinct, well said. Enjoyment of sport isn't the same as having 'fun'.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 10:06am
I did sail in the '60s and used to mess about in boats (which is how I learned) as much as I raced them. We took the racing seriously but not that seriously. I've only been on two sailing courses in my life, a Windsurfing Instructor course in the '90s and a VHF course a few years ago.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 10:32am
Learning while doing is fine if you have time and opportunities -- I learned that way, too. But if your family hasn't got a boat, or you only have time at weekends, training courses are a useful shortcut to get you on the water. I find that most people taking our courses don't do it for the racing, but for the messing about on the water.
------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986
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Posted By: giraffe
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 10:47am
I disagree that too many races is the problem. Too much hanging around can be a problem. Did a recent one day open meeting with 10 races. Each lasted less than 15 minutes. Turnarounds were very quick. Lots of action, great fun. Sailed for less than 2 hours before lunch and less than 2 hours after lunch.
Re the squad conundrum. This is difficult. From the outside you wonder why, but watching your children within the environment, they love it. Do they actually leave the sport because they love kids sailing and then at an adult level the sport does not resemble it in any way? eg big fleet oppie sailing is tactically very interesting / challenging and a fleet of a dozen singlehanders on a pond in no wind does not quite cut the mustard?
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 10:55am
Originally posted by iGRF
Originally posted by Rupert
Is enjoying doing something the same as having fun? Fun suggests a giggle a minute, which sounds rather shallow and silly unless taking part in games, not races. I like to concentrate, I like to be competitive (though when this crosses over to "over competitive" I feel bad after) and I like to win if I can. If I'm not enjoying it, I tend to stop, a policy I decided on a decade or more ago when I found sailing was making me less happy, not more.
Quite agree too many races can kill the joy. |
That put's it exactly as I see it, oh to be so succinct, well said. Enjoyment of sport isn't the same as having 'fun'. |
it's not fun being catapulted over the front of the windsurf board, it's not fun paying for the nose repairs either.
it's not fun falling off a mountain bike on to a rock, or washing out at 30mph on gravel on a road bike in nothing but lycra.
there's been plenty of times 'fun' would be last thing I'd attribute to equipment & elements based sports ... especially snowboarding which has some major barriers of frustration and fear to overcome before you can consider yourself even intermediate level.
That said, the overall sense of achievement, or the feeling of progression after each session does build up a sense of Euphoria that can mean equipment and element sports become more permanent fixtures in our lives. I think sailing, especially dinghy sailing, still has that draw for many- it's mix of adrenaline, adventure and mental stimulation.... listening to Julia Bradbury extolling the virtues and mental health benefits of countryside walking this morning, I couldn't help but think the same applies to me, replacing walking boots and turnstiles with neoprene and waves.
That said, I do wonder whether the feeling of drifting around the same pond in the usual order of finishers takes away this sense of progress and achievement, rather than fun per say. many of us hit the inevitable plateau of the average ageing club racer- limited by time and skill, or simply fitness and body type. It's even worse when handicap racing disparate craft on average laps- the boats themselves define the finishing order more than the sailor input in a one design or closer PY banding group.
My own view - dinghy sailing has never lacked fun if you are prepared to shake things up - travel somewhere new, try a different class, make a t*t of yourself with foils or wires etc.... and certainly doesn't now, if anything the boats are far better and more or less maintenance free. What it lacks is free time and the same can be said for many wonderful sports and hobbies that previous generations have enjoyed.
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 11:39am
Originally posted by turnturtle
many of us hit the inevitable plateau of the average ageing club racer- limited by time and skill, or simply fitness and body type.
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There's a great book for over-coming that problem
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 11:42am
There's a great old one too http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/start-to-win-9781472901514/" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/start-to-win-9781472901514/
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
There's a great old one too http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/start-to-win-9781472901514/" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/start-to-win-9781472901514/ |
Agreed
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by fab100
Originally posted by turnturtle
many of us hit the inevitable plateau of the average ageing club racer- limited by time and skill, or simply fitness and body type.
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There's a great book for over-coming that problem
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indeed... it's a help, but sadly no substitute for TOTW
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 12:48pm
Actually there is a substitute for some of the TOTW, and that is for a coach to give you a few pointers, that can lead to a Eureka moment ... such Eureka moments inject some enthusiasm to develop new found skills ... I had such a moment in a coaching session a couple of weeks ago when being taught to sail downhill in big waves by the lee.
This is why I keep banging on about the need for coaching beween Youth and Olympic levels, in golf or skiing if you want to progress you engage a coach, in sailing all you can do is buy a few books ... not to take away from Clive's publication, it is not the same as somebody identifying the issues and suggesting some appropriate drills.
I really think that there should be an initiative to encourage race coaching to weekend warriors, otherwise you will plateau and if you are a competitive type, you will have a crack at another sport.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 1:31pm
Very true - and honestly speaking, I've often found 'training events' far more fun than real events.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by turnturtle
.... in nothing but lycra.
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Whatever happens to you for that is karmic punishment. Well deserved.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 6:15pm
I'm not sure TOTW is the issue necessarily, but how it is spent.
By only pitching up for races, there is a reluctance to try things; carry on doing what you are doing, carry on getting what you are getting. We never actually practice, or more to the point experiment. Contrast Nick Craig, who defines most races as 'practising' and is willing to try and test things, looking for improvement at the events that matter to him. Still nearly impossible for normal mortals to beat him of course.
On return from holiday, withdrawal symptoms drove me to a sneaky Monday evening sail recently. I spotted two things I could do better by focussing on aspects of how I was sailing the boat and came up with two neat bimbles, both of which are now made and are an improvement.
So, next time at the club, go out early. Practice hovering at a start mark, standing up rather than the usual sitting. Sail backwards, do stuff wrong to see what feels right. Sail with your eyes closed. experiment with more or less vang, outhaul, whatever. Heat up more, then soak harder downwind. Stuff then sail free upwind and feel the difference. Tie off the rudder and sail with heel and sails only
If on safety boat duty, follow and watch the leaders and look closely at what they do, then compare objectively to yourself. Take pictures.
But also talk to the club gurus and get some pointers on aspects you struggle with. I agree an independent eye from a proper coach can be really helpful, if you can arrange it. Why not arrange for coach to visit your club and share the cost.
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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