CASC and rating revaluations
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12720
Printed Date: 06 Jul 25 at 12:03pm
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Topic: CASC and rating revaluations
Posted By: fab100
Subject: CASC and rating revaluations
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 9:39am
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Last year, when HMRC came up with all sorts of silly participation record keeping and mandatory minimum levels, we decided to drop out of CASC
After a year of chasing, we've finally had a response from our Council and also the new Rateable Value Assessment.
Ouch
A four-fold Rateable Value increase plus losing all the CASC discount suddenly gets untenably expensive
Any other clubs been whacked with massive Rates rises, inside or outside CASC? If so, what is the plan?
I'm thinking we not only appeal the increase (of course, it's a nonsense) but change our membership categories and go back into CASC.
And should the RYA not have kicked HMRC into touch on this participation thing anyway? We are purely a sailing club, not a Pub with a bit of sport on the side.
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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Replies:
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 11:43am
Have you looked at the rates reductions available because your club ranks as a 'small business'?
Not sure if that's based on profit or turnover?
Is the rates valuation on the basis of your premises being effectively a pub, when that is something you would need planning permission for?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 11:59am
We went for the small business rates revue and secured a 10 grand rebate a couple of years back in my first year as commodore, very welcome.
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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 1:43pm
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We are not a CASC, have a bar license and have just had 100% discretionary relief confirmed by our local authority. As a very small club our income is probably minuscule compared to others.
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 5:56pm
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Council not seem interesting in giving us any discretionary relief, which is a bit disappointing considering we appear on the cover of their marketing brochure (I know, I know)
RS - sorry the 'pub' thing is a red-herring (it was just the driver for HMRC's changing the CASC rules, trying to stop CASC relief use by drinking-clubs with a bit of sport). Rateable value is supposedly assessed based on rental value of the demise. But given there is virtually no alternative use, it's really just a nonsensical money-grabbing try-on.
We will be appealing as iGRF suggests. When I did work in the actual pub trade, we had professionals working on those all the time.
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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 8:59pm
Hi fab. We dropped out of CASC too on the basis of record keeping being impossible. Looking for experiences of other clubs in the same boat (sic)
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Stewart
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 10:06pm
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This issue soaks up loads of time that would be better spent trying to get new members, their could be a correlation between time now spent on paperwork and decline in sailing.
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 4:06pm
Thankfully, I haven't had to deal with this issue, I moved clubs from where I was secretary, and where the club was a CASC, while HMRC were still "consulting" on the changes. However, I'd always assumed that you would be able to do a pretty good job of record keeping from the racing results and the training rota. That wouldn't work, of course, if you had a lot of non racing sailing going on. But in a predominantly racing club I'd have thought the work involved in putting together the racing results at the end of the year, to check participation, was probably worth the guaranteed 80% rate relief, if you weren't going to get it otherwise.
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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 6:07pm
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The red tape now being generated for a voluntary organisation is pushing volunteer members to the edge, we only have about 40 members, half of these think the other half are paid proffessionals to wait on them, bulk of work falls on the shoulders of half a dozen people.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 6:26pm
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Bureaucracy is like extra weight building a boat I think, every little addition seems perfectly reasonable on its own, but when they're all added together suddenly its 50lbs overweight...
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 6:30pm
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We were poised to go CASC when the consultation came around, rewriting our rules and m&a, but the constraints particularly on bar and food turnover and participation levels became too demanding so we have not followed through. I think we still get a rates reduction, though in the current climate this might not last too long.
423zeros comments resonate ... I blame Mrs T for the "me" culture that we have today.
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Happily living in the past
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by 423zero
The red tape now being generated for a voluntary organisation is pushing volunteer members to the edge, we only have about 40 members, half of these think the other half are paid proffessionals to wait on them, bulk of work falls on the shoulders of half a dozen people. |
so realistically, how long before you think the club closes down?
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Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 6:48pm
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So what records are you required to keep and how are the minimum participation levels decided to get CASC status?
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by The Moo
So what records are you required to keep and how are the minimum participation levels decided to get CASC status? |
see https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/community-amateur-sports-clubs-detailed-guidance-notes/community-amateur-sports-clubs-detailed-guidance-notes
A club that is open more than 44 weeks of the year would require over 50% of the membership to have participated on at least 12 days.
This would need to be recorded, and would prove a big ask if there is a significant "social" element to the club.
I think this is proving a big problem for local Rugby clubs where members may remain well after their playing days are over.
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Happily living in the past
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 8:49pm
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Turnturtle, Club is in a better state now than 5 years ago, hardcore membership have worked hard to drag us back from the brink, lot of help from RYA too, from an average of 4 boats per race to 12 boats out of a membership of 40 pretty good. I do not know participation figure off top of my head, guessing at 50%
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Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 7:25am
Originally posted by davidyacht
Originally posted by The Moo
So what records are you required to keep and how are the minimum participation levels decided to get CASC status? |
see https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/community-amateur-sports-clubs-detailed-guidance-notes/community-amateur-sports-clubs-detailed-guidance-notes A club that is open more than 44 weeks of the year would require over 50% of the membership to have participated on at least 12 days. This would need to be recorded, and would prove a big ask if there is a significant "social" element to the club. I think this is proving a big problem for local Rugby clubs where members may remain well after their playing days are over. |
If we ever decide to go down that route we have the participation levels info to hand as we complete a register every time the water is used. Have done so for years. As we are small it is easy to do. Also dinghy parking space is at a premium so it gives us evidence to politely ask those members who are not using their boats to remove them if we get an influx of keen newcomers with boats which we cannot accommodate.
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Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 04 May 17 at 1:27pm
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We applied for small business releif from the council and are £47 better off than before on rates. We have around 500 members.
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