PFDs
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12719
Printed Date: 06 Jul 25 at 12:01pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: PFDs
Posted By: Steve411
Subject: PFDs
Date Posted: 10 Apr 17 at 4:55pm
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I'm about to buy a new buoyancy aid on account of buying a new boat and having difficulty getting under the boom when tacking. No doubt this is mostly down to age and lack of technique but, as every little helps as they say, has anyone got suggestions for least-bulky PFDs? ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Replies:
Posted By: giraffe
Date Posted: 10 Apr 17 at 6:09pm
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I really like my Zhik
%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=zhik+buoyancy+aid&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg1YqTsJrTAhUIDMAKHYKbBzUQ_AUIBygC&biw=1595&bih=875#imgrc=luAG8Hr_HDT32M: |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 10 Apr 17 at 6:20pm
| In addition to considering marginal differences between makes it may be worthwhile to think about wearing a tight fitting rash vest style top over your existing or a new PFD. A solution favoured by some to keep it slim and minimise chances of snagging on boats bits. |
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 10 Apr 17 at 6:21pm
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I must be getting old - I hate the American term PFD. Apologies. As long as we don't say booo-ees for bouys I'll be ok 😂 ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 10 Apr 17 at 6:24pm
Keeping it slim is not something I'm ever accused of. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 10 Apr 17 at 6:49pm
+1 That's the thing that really makes a difference. Snagging of the top edge at the back is the problem, not overall bulk with most modern PFDs. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Apr 17 at 9:14pm
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I use a kayak buoyancy aid. I can vaguely remember a lecture sometime ago, they said no rash vests should be worn over buoyancy aids, stops safety boat crews getting a good grip on your straps ?
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 10 Apr 17 at 9:31pm
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I use an impact vest, the sort of thing kite and wakeboarder use, it's low on buoyancy, but does provide protection when for example the crew accidentally let's go the kite sheet and you get thrown onto the metal hoop thing that some boats have sticking up. Along with helmets I think they are far more suitable for dinghy racing, given we are often pushing the limits of windspeed and if we do go over some times being able to dive down and out is more important than floating about for long periods. They also make it easier to get back in the boat unaided, so, no bulky buoyancy vest for me, ever, thanks just the same, my method works better.
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 10 Apr 17 at 10:51pm
Rescue crews can't get a good hold of your straps but neither can other things, like cleats, boom ends and other bits of kit that you REALLY don't want your PFD straps to catch on if you are capsized. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 8:45am
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I have one of the Rooster ones. Not too bulky and comfy and I manage to compress my 6ft 1 under the boom quite happily even when I am on max kicker. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 10:03am
Argh, I agree 100% with a post by GRF. It's quite brought me out of hibernation. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 2:40pm
Rooster ones are excellent. ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 2:42pm
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can recommend both zhik and spinlock for slimline and anti snag sailing. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 3:33pm
| I was using a Dakine impact vest on the D-Zero - as you say, the boom is very low.... |
Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 4:30pm
| Really like my Zhik(s). Bought a large and found it floated up on capsizes so downsized to a medium. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 10:42pm
| CASC doesn't seem viable for sailing clubs which are open 365 days a year... in order to qualify 50% of the membership would need to sail 12 times at the club (or do official duties) ... good luck with that given how seasonal the sport actually is!!! |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 11 Apr 17 at 11:17pm
Heh heh, Turnturtle's trumping in on the wrong conversation 
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 8:53am
Quit the trolling TT you know the boom height on the D-Zero is fine and is the same or higher than many boats that are similar.
------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 10:57am
I did wonder where that came from, can't recall the boom being particularly low and can't recall even suggesting it, the only thing that imv suffers from a low boom is the Contender, oh and that Europe boom looks a bit down and dirty. But lets talk about D Zero and nose diving shall we?  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 12:05pm
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OK booms are pretty low too but it has a fairly deep cockpit...... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 2:02pm
Grumpf is pretty low too on account of his short legs. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 2:31pm
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I feel his pain..... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 6:45pm
yeah, wtf happened there... anyway, CASC and mandatory Buoyancy Aids.... load of bureaucratic nonsense on both counts.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 7:08pm
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Too right, though I didn't know buoyancy aids were mandatory? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 10:04pm
| For racing and also for certain waters due to lease and/or fun police local rules |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 10:16pm
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Serious question, who would actually sail without a buoyancy aid ? I wouldn't, just to kick it off
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 10:29pm
Actually in really light conditions I sling my Zhik buoyancy aid in the front of the boat, I prefer the freedom of movement that this confirs. ''Tis my choice. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 12 Apr 17 at 11:00pm
Can I flip that and ask seriously what is it that you think a buoyancy vest will do for you? It won't float you face up if you get knocked out. I get that it acts as a lifting handle if all else fails and the rescue boat has to pull you into their boat, but hell is that it? One thing back in the day we fought tooth and nail as windsurfers not to be made to wear them and pointed out all the inherent dangers they have. The restriction on your ability to dive down out from under, the fatigue inducing nature of their bulk, hell half the reason the rescue boat has to pull you into theirs is probably because you can't get back into yours precisely because of their bulk. Do they help you keep afloat? It's overkill, you already have massive flotation from your wetsuit and even more if you're wearing a death bag and if you have to hang around you do have this big floaty thing you fell out of to hang onto. I'm quite serious they are more harm than the good they allegedly do, back in the day of plimsoles, shorts woollies and anoraks or waterproofs I can see why the dummy dinghy sailors had to be told to wear them, but nowadays? Nope they should be voluntary and certainly not mandatory for racing once you're old enough to vote. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 7:00am
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In some classes they are downright dangerous, in others they are an essential. A lot of clubs simply state you must have adequate personal buoyancy. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 7:59am
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We have to wear them. Feels odd not having one now. I'd always be losing the gloves that I put in the front pocket.
I preferred the Y flag flying, put your BA on rule, but that possibly put too much responsibility on the shoulders of the RO? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 8:36am
As a long time Windsurfer/racer I always wear a PFD in the form of my nappy harness  . as much use as a chocolate fireguard as a life preserver but I'm 100% with GRF that on a board a BA is rarely more than a hinderance. I always wear one on a boat though, 53+ years of conditioning I guess. Oh and occasionally, windsurfing in a real blow and some waves (note I didn't say 'wavesailing' as that description could only be applied to my windsurfing in the loosest sense) I'll wear a BA just to make water starting slightly easier. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 9:37am
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Just last Sunday, I capsized and my BA snagged on the edge of the board and stopped me getting onto it. Some while ago, I noticed how easily I got onto the board from the water, and spent the rest of the race congratulating myself on my fitness, only to go into the changing room and find my BA hanging on the hook... It definitely gets in the way during capsize recovery, and my Gill BA was chosen for its lack of bulk. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 9:44am
I used to race in the 12ft Skiff without one unless it was windy. It's amazing how warm they keep you though, if you don't wear one you need to stick an extra rashie on! ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 3:23pm
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I realised the futility of them when one of the bloody things pinned my sister face first into the water courtesy of a tiller extension snagged through the arm of one.... she'd have been a goner had it happened on a singlehander. That said, I would insist my kids use them - they are not strong swimmers and above all, I don't want to be featured in the Daily Mail for irresponsible parenting - but frankly for me, no, I doubt I'd wear one again for casual dinghy sailing unless it were mandated by the rules of the club I was sailing under. I would also support a general move towards elective use for adults. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 5:58pm
| What is technical specification for a 50 newton buoyancy aid, ie what is it supposed to do ? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 7:28pm
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Two significant things the buoyancy provides are:
- to keep your mouth further from the water, significantly reducing the risk of secondary drowning. - to greatly reduce the amount of energy you have to expend swimming. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 7:45pm
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 8:12pm
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The problem with the current generation of buoyancy aids is their tendency to ride up when in the water, some kind of crutch strap could improve performance, but might restrict movement while sailing. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 10:00pm
I wear a Spandex top as others have mentioned which reduces the rise up. It still allows the shoulder straps to be grabbed and the wearer pulled from the water. Vest types are available which makes the shoulder straps more visible. You can buy retrofit able crotch straps or even better thigh straps. Alternatively I also have the open style hiking pants which tend to fall down, I have fitted shoulder straps which I wear over the buoyancy aid and hold it in place The manufacturers of dinghy buoyancy aids are not dealing with this issue very well, kiteboarding, canoe and commercial buoyancy aids appear to be better. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 10:05pm
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To me I reckon that for every anecdote of the time a buoyancy aid has caused an issue there must be a hundred where they've saved a potentially bad situation. There's plenty to be gained in analysing the issues and improving the design of BAs, but I'm certainly glad we're all forced to wear them. ------------- Europe AUS53 & FF 3615 National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret |
Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 10:06pm
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Like seatbelts. ------------- Europe AUS53 & FF 3615 National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 10:12pm
Don't disagree but they could still be a lot better ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 10:37pm
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googled 50 newton buoyancy aid, not much use anyway, inland water, help close at hand, competent swimmer why bother if you have all of above.
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Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 11:14pm
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50N of buoyancy is still well worth having even if you meet all of the above criteria. Agreed weaing a 50N BA doesn't guarantee that you'll float the right the way up after you're been knocked unconscious, but without it the chances are you wouldn't be floating at all. ------------- Europe AUS53 & FF 3615 National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 11:29pm
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One only has to look at the drowning rate for water users who don't use PFDs as against that for organised water sport particpants who do.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 12:10am
Not really. BA users will include a large number of dinghy racers who have rescue cover, whereas non-BA users will include all sorts of people of dubious skills. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 3:00pm
I find it a lot easier to swim with a BA on, I don't have natural positve bouyancy so I sink pretty quickly. ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 3:34pm
I have had boats drift away from me and not be able to catch them, IC with its seat sticking up in the air the worse. The BA is vital when you have tried to catch the wayward boat and are exhausted. How much buoyancy you need and how easy it is to swim will depend on what you wear. I dry suit sailor would need more buoyancy and find it hard to swim. I wetsuit sailor less buoyancy the thicker the suit but easier to swim depending on the suit. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 6:03pm
| I use a Surf board leash where their is a danger of boat being blown away. I have heard some people tie mainsheet to themselves. |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 6:12pm
| Being separated from the boat is a risk most people massively under estimate... |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 6:45pm
the surf boad leash is a really good idea
 |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 7:01pm
I have attached the mainsheet with part of the BA strap that was tidied away with Velcro, easy to remove if it in itself becomes a hazard ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:05pm
Ha that sounds like a great trip one leg up in the air being dragged through the water by a dinghy under full sail after you've fallen out, which leg are you going to fix it to? Ankle or Calf leash? 6' 8'? No don't tell me you're going to use a SUP leash... Oh and you're in a death bag.. Good one.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:36pm
| attach to buoyancy aid, I use a kayak type, with a loop to attach paddle leash to, no worse than being attached by a trapeze. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:06pm
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A leash is a silly and dangerous idea IMHO.... If you fall off keep hold of the mainsheet, the boat will capsize and you're still attached. Maybe if I'd had it happen during the last 50+ years of sailing dinghies and sailboards I would feel different but it hasn't. Now, sailing on the sea, a VHF radio is a sensible idea..... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:20pm
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vhf radio, I carry one too, make sure it's well attached to you, not the boat. I have used a leash for years and haven't had any issues, posters who have scoffed, do you have evidence or just an opinion ?
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:30pm
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Yes, VHF attached to you not the boat for sure. Windsurfing, a leash simply doesn't work, in a boat, to me, there are enough trip hazards already. But, no evidence TBF, maybe I should try it....... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:33pm
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What is VHF range from sea level? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:40pm
| mine supposed to be 8 kilometres, but, I have yet to find my mobile phone not have a signal (obviously coastal sailing, not offshore), unless pre-arranged with someone ashore, I would dial 999 in an emergency |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:59pm
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8km from a boat, or from head 2 inches from the water with waves higher than that? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 10:12pm
| it would be line of sight, so probably crap in the big stuff. (just googled, vhf ok with good line of sight, uhf better when their are obstructions). |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 9:57am
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Actually the shorter the wavelength the worse the performance if obstructed so UHF is less effective than VHF but a couple of waves would be unlikely to reduce the range by very much. Line of sight is the official limit but the land station aerials are several metres off the ground giving an effective range of 50 miles+. At sea level in Holyhead Bay I can receive transmissions from both Liverpool and Belfast Coatsguard radio, neither of which have LoS. I would not expect to be able to transmit to them with my handheld but reaching Holyhead Coastguard radio from my sailing area is no problem. Also all vessels/VHF users are required to keep a watch on Channel 16 at all times. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 6:15pm
| Should have said in earlier post, no need to use leash when racing, not such an issue when you have safety boat cover, when cruising you don't generally speaking throw yourself from side to side, therefore less likely to get tangled up. |