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RS400 Upgrades

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12703
Printed Date: 06 Jul 25 at 12:03pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: RS400 Upgrades
Posted By: laser193713
Subject: RS400 Upgrades
Date Posted: 26 Mar 17 at 6:19pm
Just in the process of buying a 400 and wondering what mods have been done over the years to the boat. I saw talk of a single line kite launch system rather than the separate pole outhaul system etc.

I can't seem to find a good guide of things to change on a basically stock boat to make it the best it can be.

Other things I have heard are about new centreboards being better and the new rudders being better also. How do the new style sails compare to the old ones in terms of performance, lifetime etc.

What else should I know?



Replies:
Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 26 Mar 17 at 7:15pm
I swear by my single line hoist and others swear by their 2 line hoist. I think both have they're uses. 
I originally was sailing with non-regular crews so telling them to pull the blue rope was easier than telling them to pull this 5mm blue rope before pulling the 4mm blue rope etc. 
If you do go down the single line route the biggest advice i can give is use 5mm d12 for the tack line and 4mm anything as the kite halyard. this I've found is the perfect balance of friction to ensure both kite and pole go out equally.

Continuous kicker/downhaul is a must if you plan on any serious racing. The other unique upgrades I've got is;

Having the kite halyard run around the back of the boat, but to ensure I Don't stand on it/trip over it  the blocks are tied to around 150mm of string which are tied to the toe strap mounting points, This allows for the halyard to run tightly round the central mainsheet column and inside the drainage well without chafing or fouling anything

The wing wangs (the lines that control the sideways movement of the pole) have a 6mm bobble on them then  a bowline with a piece of flexible air hose round it. This is then pulled from forward (in front of the mast step) with the pole across to the side and tied tightly. This allows the bobble to hit the bowline knot and stand the handle in the air when the pole is set for the opposite side. Meaning when you gybe rather than trying to pick up the handle or get a grip of it you can just stick you're hand/arm into the hole of the hose and begin to pull without missing the handle.

The centerboards and rudders all got a new molding at around sail no. 1100 , these are much better but i wouldn't say crucial unless you want to compete at top level (I've still got my old ones)

Never sailed it with a good old style main so cant tell you the difference between them but its like everything, the newer the better.

If you haven't got righting lines i would put some on and if you get a chance on a windy day to just practice gybing it takes some getting used to at first with doing the pole as well as the main and you will do lots of swimming




Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 26 Mar 17 at 8:26pm
I originally was sailing with non-regular crews so telling them to pull the blue rope was easier than telling them to pull this 5mm blue rope before pulling the 4mm blue rope etc. 

Mmm, you probably could have made that a bit easier to operate Wink


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 26 Mar 17 at 8:38pm
When we had one we re-rigged it with a shorter kite halyard / retrieval line that just goes straight back up the chute from the hoisting block, not around the back of the boat.  Less string and friction as the helm never hoists.  All the 4s I've crewed more recently have been set up like this.

Early boats had good foils from when the original tooling was new.  It was as the tools aged that the quality wasn't so good prior to re-tooling.


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Europe AUS53 & FF 3615
National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret


Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 26 Mar 17 at 9:29pm
Sails: there are very few good old style ones left to draw a comparison from.  New ones give you better visibility!

Generally there are few tweaks allowed and tbh few are necessary.  You might want to upgrade some blocks to a better brand of chandlery, but that's about it.  Other tweaks like a 2:1 main halyard are largely a matter of taste.  It's a great boat right out of the box, so enjoy it!


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Europe AUS53 & FF 3615
National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 26 Mar 17 at 10:13pm
2:1 main halyard is a definite improvement.
Old style mains are IMHO a bit flatter than the new vago style, I'm still using one for club racing.
Still OK, particularly if you have a light crew. Heavy teams will prefer the new main.
Most of the white jibs must be clapped now, but I'm still working through my stock....
There are some kites around in IMHO poor quality fabric.
I use separate 'pole out' not a single line hoist.
Halyard around the back as Clubracer says on short rope pennants off the toe strap mounts. Our boat has always been like that, never seen a reason to change it. Just occasionally, I end up pulling the kite up the last bit from the helm, 99% the crew does it.
Continuous Cunningham and kicker well worth doing, if dome right you should be able to cleat the leeward side by pulling the line from windward.
Righting lines, I'm fitting them for this season, having moved to  a place with big waves. The boat turtlles quite easily and the plate is very high when the boat's on its side.
Main jammer. you either want a shackle or two under your harken ratchet, or the adjustable height Ronstan set up.
Autoratchets on the kite sheets are nice. Also on the jib.
Watch for old booms with the sheet attachments on the bottom, most of them have broken by now. They crack around these fittings.
Self releasing clamcleat on the rudder downhaul has probably earned its keep in Chichester Harbour shallow bits.
Do calibrate the jib halyard for rig tension.


Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 26 Mar 17 at 11:51pm
All good info here.

We have the spinny halliard led over in front of the crew so if there's a snag the crew see's it straight away. The helm can then concentrate on steering around the windward mark and setting the boat off in the right direction.

Single line hoist...anyone who is any good gave that up ages ago.

Foredeck lip (cockpit in front of crew) glue a car door protector here...when crews hoisting kite frantically, the thin halliard cuts grooves here. (My crew hoists standing up, not sitting down).

Spinny chute...lube every couple of weeks. Mast groove and all mast sheaves...lube every time the mast comes down.

Older foils not too much of a problem but make sure the rudder goes down at the right angle. If the pivot hole has worn it might end up going forward of vertical. It can be remedied by filling with epoxy and being redrilled correctly'

Slot gasket...big bummer if this is worn out. Days work to replace.

Make sure no cracks around the pintles.

Otherwise, pull up the sails and g oand enjoy one of the best 2-person hiking out boats ever designed!


Posted By: rs41212
Date Posted: 28 Mar 17 at 10:31am
There are the big upgrades - getting the new style sails and carbon spinnaker pole.

The middle upgrades such as making the kicker 16:1 and either the rig tension or cunnigham 8:1 (can't remember which) although every single boat I've seen so far has already done this. Then making the kicker continuous, cunningham continuous and adding elastic take ups for them and the rig tension under the thwart.


Then there are the small upgrades or tweaks.

Jib sheet ratchets on the floor allow easier fine tuning in the windy stuff.

A thin piece of elastic between the wing wang cleats to put the bung over and hold it out the way and stop it going back into the bailer hole for when its windy and wavy and water is being blown into the boat or you dip a side in a tack.

Thick tight elastic 6-8mm from the shroud down to the toe strap point - these are used to keep the kite sheets from dropping in the water and in light winds will actually set the kite when it is hoisted.

Tying the end of the outhaul to the kicker point on the boom at the max out setting makes it really easy to use, you just knock it out of the cleat when the crew comes into the boat at the windward mark.

On the new style booms its worth drilling an extra hole in the end to put your outhaul through so it can't hop out of the knook it is normally in in the end. Or tie a piece of elastic to the clew and the mainsheet attachment point to keep the outhaul always under tension. 

Making sure your tube loop wing wang handles sit tight to the cleat when the opposite handle is pulled means it is always in the same place and easier to grab. I've seen those with t handles use a piece of elastic between the thwart level jib block and the mainsheet turret area to make sure the t handle is always hanging in the same spot for the same reason.

A bit of neoprene or similar stuck to the back end of the boom to stop it scratching the boat when the main is dropped.

And finally a bit of pipe insulation wrapped around the king post zip tied on not too tight so it rotates so that when the pole comes back in it glances off the king post and doesn't dent it.

There is talk of a magical frictionless wing wang system but I have not seen it myself and it could be incredible, it could just be using the right blocks well lubed with the right rope or could just be psyche out material much like the towing tube I saw at rutland which directed air down inside the hull when the boat was being towed in order to make sure it was 100% dry inside. The guy had no idea if it worked but everyone wanted one after seeing it.

All are easy to do yourself and even the continuous take up system is sold as a pack with all the bits by RS and there are diagrams and info on how to rig it on the facebook page.

Settings for the old style sails are easily available and the settings used by the top 5 at nationals last year are also available if you use the new style sails.

Hope that helps.


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 28 Mar 17 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by rs41212

There are the big upgrades - getting the new style sails and carbon spinnaker pole.....
Are the FRP poles actually carbon now?
For a while, the most crucial upgrade was to get rid of the plastic pole and fit an old metal one. I'd assume all the first ones have been either broken or recalled by now.

Kicker needs to be 4x2x2 = 16:1, not 2x2x2x2 which won't have enough travel. It's better if it's all spectra not the old wire.

There are details you can improve, like making sure the spinny sheets won't get into the jib blocks on the floor, particularly if you've put ratchets there. But mostly, so long as everything works and it doesn't leak, it's all about sailing it.
Check out the pulleys in the special fittings at the base of the mast. On mine the ball races disintegrated which created a lot of friction in the downhaul and rig tension.

Also the kite halyard and pole-out cleats, we've fitted Holt all-angle fairleads and Harken cleats.
Some people fit front fairleads to  the jib cleats, this helps the helm cleat the jib when the crew is struggling with the kite.
IMHO, the old style main is OK, I don't notice a speed difference against comparable people upwind.
But the old style jib, once it starts looking old, it's slowing you down.


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 28 Mar 17 at 2:30pm
Thanks for all this info.

I will keep you updated as the "project" moves forwards!


Posted By: dogslife
Date Posted: 28 Mar 17 at 5:28pm
Whatever you get make sure it's got a metal mast step. The plastic ones have a very nasty habit of letting go with a really big bang because the rig tension, kicker & downhaul all come off it. Besides making you jump, it gives the mast ram one hell of a yank!!!


Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 28 Mar 17 at 8:47pm
All great advice...been sailing the buggers since they came out in 94 and still picking up ideas here,

RS400C...the jib fairlead thing...we took them off (the guide thing over the top of the fairlead) as we and others found, having uncleated the jib for a tack or gybe, it jumped back in with terminal consequences. Might be just us...but worth considering!


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 29 Mar 17 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Oinks

All great advice...been sailing the buggers since they came out in 94 and still picking up ideas here,

RS400C...the jib fairlead thing...we took them off (the guide thing over the top of the fairlead) as we and others found, having uncleated the jib for a tack or gybe, it jumped back in with terminal consequences. Might be just us...but worth considering!

I bought the parts years ago but never got around to fitting them. On our boat, the pulleys for the elastics of the control line take-ups are hanging off the cleat screws and while all that's working I don't want to fiddle with it in a hurry.


Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 29 Mar 17 at 10:45pm
Didn't they also change the hull material once or twice during its history?  Did that make any difference?  .... not something you can upgrade of course, but worth bearing in mind before buying perhaps. 

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Javelin 558
Contender 2574


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 Mar 17 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by NickA

Didn't they also change the hull material once or twice during its history?  Did that make any difference?  .... not something you can upgrade of course, but worth bearing in mind before buying perhaps. 

Piossibly if it went from something like polyester to vinylester or epoxy as polyester takes on ater over time and the other 2 do not (IIRC).


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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 Mar 17 at 2:26pm
From around hull number (sail number?) 2011 if the suggestion in this old thread was voted through at the first attempt?

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7237&PN=1&title=rs400-proposed-changes


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 Mar 17 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

From around hull number (sail number?) 2011 if the suggestion in this old thread was voted through at the first attempt?

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7237&PN=1&title=rs400-proposed-changes

I dont think they have got that high in terms of sail number. 2011 was probably a number assigned just for testing.

I believe all the changes went through so hullds from some time in 2012 will be vinylester rather than polyester.


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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: rs41212
Date Posted: 30 Mar 17 at 2:50pm
2011 was the development boat, currently the fleet is on about 1460. I think numbers from around 1380 are vinylester. The square rig change didn't make it through but the sails did get a redesign. There's more luff curve in the new sail.


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 30 Mar 17 at 7:52pm
the hulls became vinylester the same time they re-shaped the thwart so you can tell which is which. As someone said, this was done at around late 1300's

The hulls are almost bullet proof, there is very little or next to no difference in them. 

2016 nationals results places 3-4 boats from 2003-2004


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 30 Mar 17 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by rs41212

2011 was the development boat, currently the fleet is on about 1460. I think numbers from around 1380 are vinylester. The square rig change didn't make it through but the sails did get a redesign. There's more luff curve in the new sail.

Was it really that long ago?
AIUI, the 'more luff curve in the main' thing was supposed to mean we'd all move the spreaders back a bit and more pre-bend would help stop the mast breaking with the kite up.
What actually happened was the top people kept the spreaders the same and got a heavier crew.
But the nett difference is very small.Particularly on a proper w/l course.
I think the new sails with a heavier crew have a real edge on a course with tight or two-sail reaches. But that's about all, unless you're trying for the top 3 at the Nationals.

Most of the hulls are indeed fine, but there are some out there which have been beaten to death. Let's face it, mine is in the middle of the number range and it's 20 years old. A lot have been raced hard, some on the sea. Some have done a lot of road miles around the circuit too.
 


Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 31 Mar 17 at 12:10am
With the old straight luff main, we used to set the mast up straight in most conditions but mid range, to get the large-ish roach to stand up, we put a tiny amount of inversion in. You couldn't see that if you stood back from the boat but you could sighting up the luff groove with just the jib hoisted and full rig tension. A lot of people were doing this when we all had the old-style main.  I'm not sure with the new main (with more luff curve) that there is any general consensus even now. Some go well with the previous "straight mast" setup. We found it too "stuttery" upwind in a breeze, put in a small amount of pre-bend, put a little more tension in the battens than we had previously to get the leech to stand up and it goes fine now. Needs big mainsheet tension in medium winds but it always did anyhow.


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 31 Mar 17 at 10:01am
I read the very long thread Sam Spoons posted a link to regarding the original proposed changes. - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7237&PN=1&title=rs400-proposed-changes 

Lots of discussion on the single line pole and spinnaker hoist proposal. What are peoples experience of doing this conversion since then? Worth it or not? It seems a lot of people still use the separate halyard and pole launch systems. Mine is set like that still.



Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 31 Mar 17 at 10:18am
Nobody I know still uses the single-line hoist. Its been tried a few times on the 4 but there is just too much rope and too much friction.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 31 Mar 17 at 1:11pm
Not a 400 but a similar sized boat and rig, the Spice has a single line system and the main issue is friction in the chute mouth when dropping the kite (and to a lesser extent friction retracting the pole). Launching the kite is no problem.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 31 Mar 17 at 1:18pm
Yup, I had a brand new Spice many moons ago. Good fun times with that boat. Smile

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 31 Mar 17 at 3:09pm
Yup, still having fun with mine :)

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 31 Mar 17 at 4:33pm
So the boat I have bought doesn't have continuous control lines. I see the done thing is to run the rig tension through a bushing in the thwart, and the cunningham and kicker through 20mm blocks mounted just behind the thwart. Is the rig tension adjuster also continuous normally? Is there a clever way to get 3 lines all to tighten with the same piece of bungee?

I'm going to replace the jib sheets, kite sheets and those 3 control lines straight away. Also the kite sheet ratchet blocks. Am I also right in thinking some people put ratchets on the jib sheets? Is this really needed?


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 31 Mar 17 at 5:02pm
On ours, the rig tension is not continuous. Very rarely touch it afloat.
I have separate elastics, they each have a turning block each end of the thwart. the end of each elastic has a thimble on it with the control line running through it.
I have two blocks for the control lines hanging from the grab rail, and two close to the cockpit floor. The elastic picks up between these blocks.
The block hanging from the grab rail means the kicker can be cleated both sides by pulling the loop from one side.

We have jib ratchets, but my crew is not exactly strong in the arm.
Some people have been known to use 2:1 jib sheets. I've not seen that for a while though.
The load on the jib sheet can be quite high, so if your style dictates having it out of the cleat a lot, you may want a racthet.
But it doesn't need the most subtlety, you can usually just pull it in and cleat it, unlike some boats where that would often oversheet it horribly.





Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 31 Mar 17 at 10:35pm
Despite having been a bit dismissive of tweaks in an earlier post, as a crew these days I'd certainly second the suggestion of nice small auto-ratchet blocks for jibsheets.  You definitely want to be playing the jib if you ever have a puffy two sail reach, and even dumping jib power to open up the slot and allow the main to blade out upwind in extreme weather.

Having sailed other people's well-sorted 400s for so long I had actually forgotten how many tweaks there potentially are!  RS must have incorporated some of them as standard by now. 


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Europe AUS53 & FF 3615
National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 31 Mar 17 at 11:06pm
In 20+ knots upwind the crew will be playing the jib as hard as the helm plays the main. Without a ratchet you wont be able to let it out in small enough movement to stop it from backing

My rule of thumb for ratchets is to always go a block size larger than i would if it wasn't a ratchet. this would be:
<6mm rope 30mm block or 40mm ratchet
7-8mm rope 40mm block or 57mm ratchet

im currently running 7mm with a 57mm harken auto, as i found even the 8mm was too much friction and 6 is too small on the hands in a blow

as for the kite, using 57mm harken autos with 6mm rope for the light stuff and 8mm for the heavy. I've also put a folded over bit of pro-grip on the deck around half way down inline with where the sheets would lay with the sole purpose of stopping them going over the side when not in use

someone earlier said about elastic going from shroud fixing point to the toestrap fixing point to tuck ur sheets in to do the same job, I've found putting some 2-3mm string round the toestrap fixing then hooking the elastic onto it means it can double up as a halyard holder to stop them flying away when not in use





Posted By: rs41212
Date Posted: 01 Apr 17 at 1:31pm
There is quite an easy diagram for setting up your continuous control lines found on the class association website here http://www.rs400.org/documents/p1b0d5251c1dbb1fj4khr19q91qff3.pdf
The rig tension is not continuous but can be sucked under the thwart with elastic in a similar way. Mine is not but does get wrapped around the toe strap rope to prevent tripping up on it.



Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 01 Apr 17 at 10:26pm
I think I'm going to go with a system of through deck bushes rather than blocks. Having eyed it up briefly today there doesn't seem to much benefit from screwing blocks to the side tank compared with eyes through the thwart. Yes, they are slightly further inboard so you need to reach in a little bit more but I don't think its a big enough difference to really be noticeable. I also think the bushes look neater than the blocks, and are also a lot cheaper.

The elastic system can also be mounted entirely to the thwart so no blocks on the side tanks as per the guide on the website. I think this would be a neater solution.


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 02 Apr 17 at 8:37am
It will take a lot of elsatic tension to pull a control line around a 180deg turn through a bush.
Some boats were like that years ago.
I think if RS could save on the blocks, they would.....


Posted By: rs41212
Date Posted: 02 Apr 17 at 11:54am
The alternative to screwing the upper blocks to the side tank is to attach them to the grab rail. This reduces holes in the hull so is more "waterproof".  The bushes probably won't effect the sucking action of the elastic when pulling the control line on but you may find you have to feed the control line out when letting it off. Personally I would strongly suggest the grab rail placement as they are really easy to use there even when hiking out hard. Yes they don't look as neat as the bushings but primarily I think the control lines should be easy to use. Are there any other boats nearby with the continuous system fitted that way you could try it out and see whether you like it where that boat has them placed. At the end of the day it is personal preference. On a side note for neatness on my last boat I used the block organiser used by the mast on the aero to mount my blocks to with solid black tie on blocks which did look very neat. And as a plastic injection moulding they were much cheaper than the metal straps.


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 03 Apr 17 at 10:06am
It depends what bushings you use, but yes, some would add too much friction. I plan to use good quality ones which don't clog the system up.



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